New vote for worst episode ever: Between the Darkness and the Light

[maneth]

Yeah, it does. I guess my disappointment stems from the fact that I don't find Jack the Ripper a particularly interesting figure, even when it comes to mass murderers. Of course, he apparently did disappear without a trace, so maybe this is why they decided to use his name. I admit that the way Sheridan and Delenn were willing to die for one another was the best part of this episode.

 

[GaribaldisHair]

... Of course, he apparently did disappear without a trace, so maybe this is why they decided to use his name.

I do believe you have it surrounded ... JMS couldn't really use a mass murderer who had been arrested, tried and imprisoned or executed because that would clearly create a massive hole in the logic.

And just how many mass murderers are there whose "names" are well known around the world but were never caught and therefore could be used in this context?

 

[Boxie]

Everybody's different, but I LOVED it that he used Jack the Ripper! I thought it was genius! I'm one of those idiots that sits there at the end of the show...waits for it... and then helps Wayne say.... "Jack". I get sucked into it every time! It's one of my favorite episodes!

 

[KoshN]

Everybody's different, but I LOVED it that he used Jack the Ripper!

So did I!

I thought it was genius! I'm one of those idiots that sits there at the end of the show...waits for it... and then helps Wayne say.... "Jack". I get sucked into it every time! It's one of my favorite episodes!

Upon first viewing, I suspected that was coming, but with JMS, you never really know. Add to that the fact that Wayne's delivery/performance was perfection, and it's an episode that I always enjoy, even though I now know what's coming. To me, that speech by Sebastian at the end (and some of his dialogue right before he lets Sheridan and Delenn go.) is right up there with Delenn's speech to the Earthforce ships in "Severed Dreams" and the dialogue in "Sleeping in Light." They can cause involuntary physiological responses, e.g. your eyes to tear up a bit, or goosebumps to appear.

 

[Chilli]

Deconstruction I hated the first time I saw it. I just didn't get what the point to it all was.

With every single viewing, though, I start liking it more and more, and by now it's one of my favourites. Much like And now for a Word .. I hated that on first viewing too.

Illusion of Truth .. I agree with both GKE and with its opponents on this one. I thought it was very fun to see them twist all the facts around. It's especially fun when you already know what they'll do. But I also totally don't buy that Sheridan would be that stupid. Also, it has one of the most annoying factual errors of B5 in it for the nitpicker that I am, where JMS misremembered something, and noone seems to have caught it .. the Helsinki syndrome??

Intersections .. I also felt a *bit* like it was all .. too easy. "You just have to say no I won't one time more than they say yes I will" .. it's an honorable principle, but I don't think it's quite that easy. I prefered STTNG's Chain of Command there, in which Picard fights hard to preserve his dignity while being torture .. but does actually end up broken, also if he won't admit it afterwards. That being said though, it was a great episode psychologically. Not pleasant to watch, but nevertheless, quite good.

 

[maneth]

Helsinki syndrome? Oh yeah, as someone who lives in Helsinki, you bet I caught that.

There were other errors too, for example when they talked about Jack the Ripper, Sheridan said he committed his crimes in West London. They had to re-loop it to reflect reality, i. e. that he did it in East London. If you look really carefully, though, you can see that his lips don't quite match what he's saying. That mistake's not the reason I'm not particularly keen on the episode, though.

 

[GaribaldisHair]

Also, it has one of the most annoying factual errors of B5 in it for the nitpicker that I am, where JMS misremembered something, and noone seems to have caught it .. the Helsinki syndrome??

He's not alone in that ... they make exactly the same mistake in Die Hard. Now we know where JMS does his research.

 

[RMcD]

The bipulmonary system error still annoys me.. I don't think I'd have confidence in Franklin doing any kind of surgery on me if he can't tell the difference between a heart and a lung..

 

[maneth]

The bipulmonary system error still annoys me.. I don't think I'd have confidence in Franklin doing any kind of surgery on me if he can't tell the difference between a heart and a lung..

Ditto! I didn't mention that because I couldn't remember the name of the episode... Funny thing is, according to some Rick Biggs intended to become a doctor before opting for acting instead...

 

[Chilli]

Helsinki syndrome? Oh yeah, as someone who lives in Helsinki, you bet I caught that.

Olin puoli vuosi Helsingissä, myös minulle oli hirveä

(please let that have been right - it's utterly painful how my Finnish has gone out the window)

 

[Chilli]

The bipulmonary system error still annoys me.. I don't think I'd have confidence in Franklin doing any kind of surgery on me if he can't tell the difference between a heart and a lung..

Another one that bugs me is in Comes the Inquisitor .. Sheridan noting a murder spree in the London's West End, and Sebastian getting it. When .. London West End = fancy theatres, not prostitutes.

 

[maneth]

Yeah, but that was fixed in later broadcasts, or at least some of them. The one I have definitely says East, although Sheridan's lips say West.

 

[hypatia]

Another one that bugs me is in Comes the Inquisitor .. Sheridan noting a murder spree in the London's West End, and Sebastian getting it. When .. London West End = fancy theatres, not prostitutes.

Hey, in a production with money to burn (The Wizard of Oz) they couldn't even quote the quadratic formula correctly.

I guess a Scarecrow with an honorary diploma (from "the Wizard", no less ) is worth... just that.

 

[RMcD]

London West End = fancy theatres, not prostitutes.

As a former Londoner I feel obliged to point out that the centre of London's sex industry is Soho, which is very much in the West End. In fact it would almost have been a more logical place for Jack the Ripper to have operated..

 

[maneth]

Was Soho the center of the London sex industry when Jack the Ripper was active as well?

 

[RMcD]

Was Soho the center of the London sex industry when Jack the Ripper was active as well?

Yes, it was notorious then as well (it goes back a couple of hundred years):

The sex industry was established as early as the late 18th century when Hooper's Hotel on Soho Square offered rooms for pleasure and streetwalkers plied their trade. In 1959 the Government decided that a crackdown would be necessary.

(from this site: http://www.mywestend.co.uk/westend/community-history-soho.htm)

Jack the Ripper was 1888 mainly around Whitechapel and Spitafields in the East End. Harrisford Lane, where Sebastian said he resided, doesn't appear to exist. And yes, the wheels of government sometimes turn very slowly in the UK..

 

[maneth]

Thanks for the clarifications. I guess it just seems that the Ripper had a problem with women selling sex in the streets. Possibly more prostitutes in Soho were working in brothels rather than in the street. The risk of getting caught would've been correspondingly higher. I may be wrong, but I'm guessing that many of the poorer call girls were more or less independent, whereas those working in brothels would be both abused by, and protected by their pimps, who wouldn't want their "goods" damaged.

 

[Elipsis]

I thought I posted in this thread before but I guess I just thought about it and then wandered off

I'm rewatching and am currently most of the way through season 2, I've got to say the worst thing I've come across so far is easily TKO, which nearly made my girlfriend stop watching the show entirely (she is watching it through with me and seeing it for the first time herself).

Second worst was Infection, as was already said... it felt so much like Star Trek.

 

[Sindatur]

I thought I posted in this thread before but I guess I just thought about it and then wandered off

I'm rewatching and am currently most of the way through season 2, I've got to say the worst thing I've come across so far is easily TKO, which nearly made my girlfriend stop watching the show entirely (she is watching it through with me and seeing it for the first time herself).

Second worst was Infection, as was already said... it felt so much like Star Trek.

TKO has the fantastic Character building drama for Susan though (And actually, I used to hate the Mutai part of TKO, but, have learned to appreciate it a bit more the last couple times watching it)

 

[Recoil]

TKO has the fantastic Character building drama for Susan though (And actually, I used to hate the Mutai part of TKO, but, have learned to appreciate it a bit more the last couple times watching it)

My thoughts exactly. The Mutai thing was a bit corny at first, but I learned to appreciate parts of it, and Walker Smith. He really symbolized the "average human" and their fear and distrust of aliens...and he overcame it and learned to respect them. The Susan part of the show was also decent character building, and a big insight into her personality.