Rangers DVD coming to R1 in March

[darth_librarian]

Watched this last night and really enjoyed it, despite some glaring faults.

Yes, the weapons sytem was dumb and somewhat Matrix-esque, but was clearly a last minute budgetary issue. The sets also needed more cash, but this was a pilot. I found it much more enjoyable than either The Gathering or A Call to Arms.

The cast were great, clearly enjoying themsleves and the script which I agree could have been better in place. G'kar was a highlight, even if he was not exactly used to his full potential. I agree with Andrew's point on having too many characters in the pilot, it should have been the core four. Intellectually it was prehaps a notch below Crusade, aimed at the more Stargate -esque Sci-fi channel action market. Funny how that same channel is now financing Battlestar Galactica.

It should have been given a chance at a series though. The Hand were clearly not what you thought they were, apart from amything else their entire origin story was told from the off. (I belive they could have been an off-shoot of the EA black programme we saw in Crusade) I also loved the idea of the Lilandra and its design, with the tail end of a WWII fighter! In fact the effects throughout were quite good. An interesting footnote in B5 history then.

 

[vacantlook]

One thing that I really liked about the visual effects of Rangers is the way ships looked travelling through hyperspace. It actually looked turbulent and dangerous, and I could much more easily imagine waves of gravity swooshing back and forth!

 

[KoshN]

One thing that I really liked about the visual effects of Rangers is the way ships looked travelling through hyperspace. It actually looked turbulent and dangerous, and I could much more easily imagine waves of gravity swooshing back and forth!

I wish they hadn't messed with the color, going with ~medium light~-magenta instead of the red-orange we'd had before. Why change the color? Can't they color match? Were they striving for inconsistency?

 

[darth_librarian]

I wish they hadn't messed with the color, going with ~medium light~-magenta instead of the red-orange we'd had before. Why change the color? Can't they color match? Were they striving for inconsistency?

Ahh, designers striving to improve vs. fans striving for consistency and continuity. I personally found the radically different jump wormholes a bit of an issue, even if the new ones were cool as and the old ones clearly a single texture-map. Hyperspace itself looked a lot better, washed out and ethereal. Maybe this is something they could have addressed in a series, putting it down to changes in local hyperspace?.
There were slight changes to jumpgates and hyperspace in Crusade, IIRC...

I also noticed a lot of Minbari fighters flying backwards in some of the early scences....hmm.

 

[GaribaldisHair]

JSM was quoted as saying that the hyperspace setup in Rangers was much closer to what he originally visualised for hyperspace ... but that was impossible to produce at the time the series was made.

 

[KoshN]

I wish they hadn't messed with the color, going with ~medium light~-magenta instead of the red-orange we'd had before. Why change the color? Can't they color match? Were they striving for inconsistency?

Ahh, designers striving to improve vs. fans striving for consistency and continuity. I personally found the radically different jump wormholes a bit of an issue, even if the new ones were cool as and the old ones clearly a single texture-map.

I can see changing the texture to create an effect more like what JMS envisioned for hyperspace, but why change the color, too? Unless you're out to pull longtime fans out of the story, you should strive for <u>continuity</u>, or at least make as few changes as possible. i.e. Don't change <u>all</u> aspects of a given effect.

Hyperspace itself looked a lot better, washed out and ethereal.

To me, it looked far too cloudlike, like light magenta clouds in an atmosphere, like the Liandra was flying in Earth's atmosphere and you were watching it all through a magenta filter while somebody shook the camera. I prefer the look of hyperspace that they showed when Delenn and Lennier's Whitestar was fired upon and severely damaged by the group of Centauri Vorchan cruisers (operated by Shadow devices). It may not have had the 3D effect, but I liked the look of whirlpools that it did have. Combine that with the 3D effect, keep the color the same (red-orange, like in Crusade) and you'd really have something.

Maybe this is something they could have addressed in a series, putting it down to changes in local hyperspace?

The thing is they never EXPLAIN the inconsistancies. They could have explained it away with story content.

There were slight changes to jumpgates and hyperspace in Crusade, IIRC...

True, the opening flash to jumppoints, and the more saturated colors to jumppoints, and then they go the other way with "To Live and Die in Starlight" unsaturated jumppoint colors. That's just irresponsible. It's like that just can't decide upon a freakin' effect, and nobody has the discipline to keep the effects from going willy-nilly all over the place.

I also noticed a lot of Minbari fighters flying backwards in some of the early scences....hmm.

Yeah, I mentioned that LONG ago. Sure looks like nobody was minding the store, nobody was double-checking that the effects were done right, or maybe somebody who should have known (e.g. JMS) had a brain-fart and forgot which way Minbari Nials actually flew (i.e. NOT aerodynamically).

I once posted and JMS replied:
Re: SFC management

JMS denied it, but I still think it's partly true. The Minbari Nials flying aerodynamically, signals to me that the effects people were not properly supervised by the story people (the people who KNOW the B5 universe.). Why weren't the effects people supervised better? Was JMS involved with too much other stuff at the time, and was not able to devote enough time an attention to this project? (I believe this to be the case. Either that, or JMS was not all that serious about this project.)

To me, the whole thing comes off as a cheap knockoff TV movie sorta set in the B5 universe, but made by people who were not familiar with the B5 universe at all, or by a creator who's been away from the B5 universe for too long, has gone cold, and needed time to get up to speed again, and that time was <u>not</u> taken.).

 

[vacantlook]

I can see changing the texture to create an effect more like what JMS envisioned for hyperspace, but why change the color, too?

I honestly don't see a change in color.

To me, it looked far too cloudlike, like light magenta clouds in an atmosphere, like the Liandra was flying in Earth's atmosphere and you were watching it all through a magenta filter while somebody shook the camera.

There were times during B5 where hyperspace had "clouds" that ships flied through, so I guess B5's hyperspace effects had hyperspace being more of a clearsky with rare clouds, while Rangers' hyperspace was overcast.

Ultimately, I see it as an issue of visual effects evolving over time as newer technologies, programs, and skills in their use develop, and the realization of what new abilities that they give the movie and tv story creators.

 

[KoshN]

I can see changing the texture to create an effect more like what JMS envisioned for hyperspace, but why change the color, too?

I honestly don't see a change in color.

See attached screencaps.

Ultimately, I see it as an issue of visual effects evolving over time as newer technologies, programs, and skills in their use develop, and the realization of what new abilities that they give the movie and tv story creators.

Maybe, but you should try to maintain a good portion of the look. You shouldn't change everything.

 

[vacantlook]

So, I've looked at the attached picture, and while there is a variance in color, I don't see the difference as a major change, nor a troubling one.

Maybe, but you should try to maintain a good portion of the look. You shouldn't change everything.

I hardly see such a slight color variation as "changing everything."

 

[darth_librarian]

Ultimately such issues are not going to put most people off watching the show, as they'd have to have watched it as we did!! Then they'd not be watching the football.

Ultimately then, JMS was right. Not that your arguments are by any means invalid KoshN, I would agree with most of your points on some level. At the end of the day, it was down to ratings, nothing else, and they just fell short due to bad scheduling (or possibly Sci-fi channel politicking in deicidng when to show it). The channel is itself maturing, and is still the best be for any new B5 on TV imho.

 

[KoshN]

Ultimately such issues are not going to put most people off watching the show, as they'd have to have watched it as we did!! Then they'd not be watching the football.

Ultimately then, JMS was right. Not that your arguments are by any means invalid KoshN, I would agree with most of your points on some level. At the end of the day, it was down to ratings, nothing else, and they just fell short due to bad scheduling (or possibly Sci-fi channel politicking in deicidng when to show it). The channel is itself maturing, and is still the best be for any new B5 on TV imho.

I only brought up the Re: SFC management post because it contained my assertions:

>It looks like TLaDiS suffered from a lack of time to develop a script, a
>lack of resources (the B5/Crusade CGI files), and lack of time to re-develop
>the CGI that was lost. They were under time pressure to produce something
>before it could be affected by the looming strikes.

JMS denied it and HE went on to talk about the ratings. HE says the script worked. HE says the only reason it didn't do well enough in the ratings to go to a series was because of the football game.

I say the only reason he got as good ratings as he got was because of the strength of all B5 and Crusade that had gone before. We watched out of loyalty to B5 and Crusade. We watched even though major pieces of the script made no sense (e.g. the Ranger Council expecting Martell to continue to fight, without weapons against a more mobile fleet of smaller ships) with no hope of winning the battle, and an almost certain chance of getting his entire crew killed. And because he didn't do that, he's almost thrown out of the Rangers? Who are these Rangers, the new psychotic Rangers?

The Ranger Council is off their gourd. They're nuts! That G'Kar had to explain this to them is ridiculous.

I say the script didn't work. The quality wasn't there. It was dumbed down, and whole pieces of it were nonsensical. Characters did stupid things that nobody in their right mind would do, because it was required for the overall story. JMS is equating popularity with quality, "ratings" with the "script working." The only reason it got as good ratings as it did was because of fan loyalty based upon all of the B5 and Crusade that had gone before, not because of the inherent quality of THIS script or THIS production. I watched it to the end, hoping it'd get better, but it was train wreck.

Previously, I thought The River of Souls was bad, and the worst thing in the B5 universe. TLaDiS makes TRoS look GREAT.

 

[Jan]

Sigh...yes, we know. You don't like it. You hate it. You never pass up an opportunity to tell the world how much. Lately you seem to have developed a resentment toward both the Rangers movie and JMS over it, mainly because it wasn't Crusade afaict. Thing is, it's just your opinion.

Some of us liked it just fine, allowing for the fact that it was a pilot. Some things worked, others didn't. I'd've liked to see what happened because I liked most of the characters.

Jan

 

[hypatia]

Some of us liked it just fine, allowing for the fact that it was a pilot. Some things worked, others didn't. I'd've liked to see what happened because I liked most of the characters.

Jan

You took the words right out of my mouth here, Jan.

I loved the characters. Hated the weaponry system (shame, since JMS was so proud of the idea, but it would have been so much more convincing as a panel you controlled with your hand, or whatever the original idea was supposed to be).

I have no idea what I think of the plot other than I imagine much was to come which would make what we did see interesting.

But by no means do I think Rangers was awful. And I did like the characters a lot.

 

[Sindatur]

Yea, charcters were great. Plot seemed a little lacking, with what we know, but, like the Gathering, may indeed had been much fuller, looking back on it if a series was made.

 

[KoshN]

Sigh...yes, we know. You don't like it. You hate it. You never pass up an opportunity to tell the world how much.

Except that I don't hate it. I hate Reality TV. I hate all this Oprah/Letterman BS that's been all over radio and TV for days. I don't hate TLaDiS. I'm extremely disappointed in it. I like most of the characters (especially Martel, Dulann, Na'Feel, and Firell). What I hate is the setup for the story (the retreat and resultant trouble Martel is in with the Ranger Council). That foundation for the rest of the story is bogus. I find it unfathomable that the writer who wrote almost all of B5 and Crusade, the guy who wrote "To the Ends of the Earth" and "End of the Line") wrote the TLaDiS script. He's been away from this universe for too long, and needs a series (13 eps or more) not a TV movie or theatrical release to get back up to speed.

And BTW, I pass up lots of opportunities to tell the world in what low regard I hold TLaDiS. Like Beetlegeuse, I try not to mention it much.

Lately you seem to have developed a resentment toward both the Rangers movie and JMS over it, mainly because it wasn't Crusade afaict.

Resentment toward the Rangers movie? No. Indignation toward the The Sci-Fi Channel because they went with TLaDiS over continuing Crusade in some form, YES.

Resentment toward JMS over TLaDiS? No. Disappointment at some of the mistakes that got through (the Nials flying aerodynamically), disappointment at the hair-brained, contrived plot device for the whole story ("We never retreat for ANY reason."), disappointment at some of the awful dialogue and acting (e.g. the dojo scene between Tannier and Sarah), yes.


Wikipedia has
Plot Device
"....A poorly-written story, on the other hand, may have such awkward or contrived plot devices that the reader has serious trouble maintaining suspension of disbelief;...."

BINGO! That covers it.



I feel bad that TLaDiS is the last thing in the B5 universe, and people will key on it because it is the last thing. The B5 universe is diminished by it. I would have prefered that TLaDiS just quietly go away. And now it's coming out on DVD. That's like making sure that even your worst work comes out for all to see.

Thing is, it's just your opinion.

Some of us liked it just fine, allowing for the fact that it was a pilot. Some things worked, others didn't.

The thing is, looking at the assertions I posted in #345986 - 12/02/05 12:08 PM above, looking at TLaDiS, which of those assertions are wrong? With more time, he probably could have found a better way to get into the story, wouldn't have had to write his way around having almost no CGI models from the past.

I'd've liked to see what happened because I liked most of the characters.

It had nowhere to go but up.

 

[darth_librarian]

I do feel that you are resentful towards it because it did not specifically tell the story that you wanted it to and the things you wanted it to, a common critisism from hardcore fans for any genre show. I agree it also feels a little like B5-lite at times, which to me is also no bad thing as I found B5 and Crusade a bit OTT at times (speeches, exposition dialogue, pretentious rambles of G;kar etc) .

JMS had moved on from B5 between 1999 and 2002. It may be that he did have a bit of trouble writing B5, but seeing as he did it every day for six years, I think he would cope.

I'd be happy with another well established writer or set of writers taking up the helm of a B5 series, under JMS's show-running supervision.

With regards to the CGI, I saw White Stars, Earthforce shuttles, Minbari ships (including the wicked Enfili at the begining) Raiders, Narn War Cruisers and many more besides. I think the effects house they got in made up for a lack of models just fine.

 

[KoshN]

I do feel that you are resentful towards it because it did not specifically tell the story that you wanted it to and the things you wanted it to, a common critisism from hardcore fans for any genre show.

No, rather because the way they got into the story was ridiculous. One review called it a "horse pill" and (paraphrasing) "once you got over that, it was OK." The trouble is that the "horse pill" was the foundation upon which the rest of the story was built.

I agree it also feels a little like B5-lite at times, which to me is also no bad thing as I found B5 and Crusade a bit OTT at times (speeches, exposition dialogue, pretentious rambles of G;kar etc) .

Felt more light weight than Stargate SG-1 at times. Plus it felt like something that somebody had to write for a class, and padded to get it up to the required wordcount, felt kinda empty, ...lacking..

JMS had moved on from B5 between 1999 and 2002. It may be that he did have a bit of trouble writing B5, but seeing as he did it every day for six years, I think he would cope.

He's best after he's been on a roll for awhile. Starting cold, with just ~90 minutes to tell his story, isn't his strength.

I'd be happy with another well established writer or set of writers taking up the helm of a B5 series, under JMS's show-running supervision.

Gotta find a venue. Doesn't appear to be any out there, even for novels. The most likely place for anything B5-related coming on TV is on The Sci-Fi Channel, and after the last movie, I can't see that happening.

With regards to the CGI, I saw White Stars,

...in the distance. None were used up-close, because those were models from the aborted Sierra game, and weren't good enough to be seen up-close.

Earthforce shuttles,

Again, in the distance, for the same reason mentioned above.

Minbari ships (including the wicked Enfili at the begining)

Which Minbari ships other than the Enfili and Liandra, the two ships that were new CGI designs, not CGI models from the past.

I particularly liked <s> how the Liandra's rupture discs (for lack of a better description) were in a circle around the bridge crew and aimed at the bridge crew. Great design <s> (crummy plot device).

Raiders,

One ship type previously seen on B5 that it looks like the new CGI team worked on.

Narn War Cruisers

What? Where? Don't remember those. Must have been more "models in the distance" shots.

and many more besides.

I'd have to watch it again, but I think you're exaggerating.

I think the effects house they got in made up for a lack of models just fine.

They should have gotten more ship models, AND B5 itself, up to being good enough to use in close-ups. B5 was shown in the distance and barely rotated.

 

[darth_librarian]

Well, there was more to the show than effects. I think if you go to the sci-fi website you can see a narn ship in one of the screenshots, its as the Lilandra and Valen first leave Minbar... And i'm not exagerating, although it is kinda funny that this bugs you so much.

How did you find out they used the computer game meshes? I agree, that is kind of naff when there are amazing third party ones out there that the modding and imaging communites are making such great use of. Look at the work on Star Wreck, for instance.

Without wishing to sound obvious, this would probably have been fixed if they had gone to a series.

 

[Jan]

How did you find out they used the computer game meshes? I agree, that is kind of naff when there are amazing third party ones out there that the modding and imaging communites are making such great use of. Look at the work on Star Wreck, for instance.

JMS posted about it here.

From: jmsatb5@aol.com (Jms at B5)
Subject: Re: B5:LotR TLaDiS - Some Observations, Questions, etc. (SPOILERS
To: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Date: 1/21/2002 3:42:00 PM << Newer : List : Older >>


>The wheel had already been invented and perfected in Lightwave. *Use* the
>wheel. If necessary, tweak it some more, but *don't* go to different
>software. To change to Maya is to incur additional work and expense, and
>leave yourself open to the possibility of errors and inconsistancies. This
>kind of thing really pisses me off. The change makes no sense. There are
>times to be conservative, and this was one of them.
>

Understand, however, that we did not *have* that software, or those images. WB
had literally lost all the CGI archives we gave them every season. All we were
able to get, at the very last moment, was a copy of the ship files we had
given Sierra for the B5 game. That's it.

jms

(jmsatb5@aol.com)
(all message content (c) 2001 by synthetic worlds, ltd.,
permission to reprint specifically denied to SFX Magazine
and don't send me story ideas)

I don't think they'd have been allowed to go to outside sources for images.

Jan

 

[darth_librarian]

Fair point. The loss of the CGI files is an absolute sham. Having just read lots of dull books about Digital Preservation I find it even more annoying...