Re-watching Crusade

[GKarsEye]

Actually, I should point that the percussive quality of Crusade's music is something I've come to like in other things. My favorite non-jazz band, King Crimson, put electronic percussion in their new music here and there and one of their best songs (The Power To Believe II) is based on improvised finger percussion. It is gorgeous, and a sublime live experience. Metal band Fates Warning's new album has a song that works off of a similar thing and it's beautiful, adding another dimension to their normally complex heavy riffing.

One reason alot of 70s and 80s pop music sucks so much is that synthesisers and electronic percussion equipment started to come in, and musicians and producers didn't know what the hell to do with them. A few truly talented folks, like Stevie Wonder and David Bowie made them work, but mostly the tech got ahead of the music and you get crap like Human League. Nowadays, there is no such excuse and smart musicians can take advantage of this stuff, especially in score music.

 

[KoshN]

How can you people like that music?

I like the music in places, and dislike it in others. I like the main theme, and most of the end credit music. I hate the end credit music for "Ruling from the Tomb." Truth be told, I often don't notice the music (in anything, TV or movies, not just Crusade) because I get so absorbed in the story.

Off the top of my head, there are only four movies I can think of where the music really stood out, and contributed to the film in a great way:

The Thing (1982)
The Dead Zone (1983)
Star Wars (1977)
The Crow (1994)

It was just completely out of place. It sounded like tropical island music in deep dark space.

Not always. The main theme is not tropical, but mainstream. A lot of the time Crusade sounds definitely Asian (with all the flutes).

It did the worst job of properly setting the mood I've ever seen out of a TV show or film.

No, the winner there, would be Firefly, IMHO. Sci-Fi and Twangy Western? Naah!

 

[KoshN]

The Path of Sorrows would have been compulsory viewing if it had been Lyta in that role, and Lennier had appeared, I never knew that..

As it exists now, it's still an excellent episode.

 

[vacantlook]

No, the winner there, would be Firefly, IMHO. Sci-Fi and Twangy Western? Naah!

I have to completely disagree. Going into Firefly, I was really worried about whether I would like it because I'm not exactly fond of westerns. But I found the juxtaposition of western with space scifi to be really interesting and unusual, which played a good part in endearing me to the show.

 

[grumbler]

Actually, the Pat Tallman story is a bit more than that. Actors are hired by the week, not the day, and that is what PT asked for for her role in TPoS (the actor replacing her was paid for the week). Budgets being what they were on Crusade at the time, they couldn't afford (did not want to afford) her for a week, and she wouldn't go against the standards and agree to be hired for a single day (the day being at their discretion). It would have been so cool to see her in this that I hold her non-appearance against the TNT suits because if JMS denied us this scene merely as part of his legendary tightness with the dollar I couldn't stand it.

Actually, i will say the same for Evan Chen's music. If it really was a matter of taste and not scimping, I am happy with it (I liked his music well enough but would have preferred getting more from Franke).

 

[GKarsEye]

I could never base my opinion of a show based on outside circumstances. I don't "forgive" what is inferior because of "suits" or whatever- and, from what I've read, neither does JMS.


Now I just need someone to refresh my memory about the uniform changes. I know some eps were filmed with one uniform, than they were forced to change it and they wrote that into the script with Welles, and then were to change it back in a "laundry accident" later (oy). So which uniform was which (henceforth to be referred to as "black" and "grey")

FWIW, I like the black ones much more.

 

[GaribaldisHair]

Now I just need someone to refresh my memory about the uniform changes. I know some eps were filmed with one uniform, than they were forced to change it and they wrote that into the script with Welles, and then were to change it back in a "laundry accident" later (oy). So which uniform was which (henceforth to be referred to as "black" and "grey")

FWIW, I like the black ones much more.

So did I

The grey uniforms were the originals, as featured in the first 5 eps in the production sequence starting with "Racing the Night". After those 5 had been made, TNT put the show on its first hiatus and came up with some more money for new sets and asked that the uniforms be changed. And so the black ones were born.

To account for this massive continuity change, JMS wrote "Appearances and Other Deceits" to manage the change from black uniforms (which were now featured in the eps that were to start Crusade's run) to the grey ones, with the original 5 eps having been pushed back to later in the season.

The only remaining problem was that all the eps after the first 5 had been shown would also have the black uniforms - so JMS inserted a "laundry accident" into the next episode to be shown after "Each Night I Dream of Home".

Confused ... you will be ...

 

[KoshFan]

It did the worst job of properly setting the mood I've ever seen out of a TV show or film.

No, the winner there, would be Firefly, IMHO. Sci-Fi and Twangy Western? Naah!

Actually, in the last few episodes of Firefly, the music is absolutely great -- neither heavy on the western or the sci-fi. And I find myself humming the main title pretty frequently.

 

[GKarsEye]

So the black (better) uniforms were a smart decision by TNT. Ordering the episodes was not. *sigh*

The great thing about Appearances was the return of Welles, who has my favorite line of the series: "Trust me, I know how to survive political changes." I wonder if he'd been there had the uniform thing not happened.

 

[PillowRock]

Truth be told, I often don't notice the music (in anything, TV or movies, not just Crusade) because I get so absorbed in the story.

More often than not, that means that the music is doing its job well. That being: to serve the story.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Actors are hired by the week, not the day, and that is what PT asked for for her role in TPoS

Er, "No."

Actors doing guest shots in movies or television are not "hired by the week". They can be hired by the half-day, the day, or for two days, precisely depending on the size of the role and the amount of time needed to shoot it. The confusion in Pat's case came from her assumption that any guest shot would mean a week's work and a week's pay, whereas JMS planned to shoot her few pages on a single set in the course of a single day. Crusade was on a six day shooting schedule, so it is telling that her specific complaint was that she was offered "one sixth" of what she was paid on B5 in S5 - an offer which would have been an insult if it had been intended as payment for six days instead of one. Since it was for a single day, Pat was being offered exactly her old B5 rate.

(the actor replacing her was paid for the week)

And your source for this little tid-bit is?

It is barely possible that the other actor worked longer and was paid more - but only because JMS may have padded the role slightly because he was now establishing a brand-new character instead of using one already familiar to B5 fans. I have never heard that she was paid for a full week and can't imagine why anyone in a position to know would have discussed the woman's compensation in public.

The offer to Pat was made by the studio casting office and rejected via her agents. It is entirely possible that she would have done the episode had she and JMS communicated directly and gotten past her misundertanding. JMS's initial impression was that she had a scheduling problem so he didn't pursue the matter when he heard she couldn't do the show.

Regards,

Joe

 

[Jan]

(the actor replacing her was paid for the week)

And your source for this little tid-bit is?

It is barely possible that the other actor worked longer and was paid more - but only because JMS may have padded the role slightly because he was now establishing a brand-new character instead of using one already familiar to B5 fans. I have never heard that she was paid for a full week and can't imagine why anyone in a position to know would have discussed the woman's compensation in public.

I can answer the part about JMS padding the role slightly. Only if you count adding about 2 sentences 'padding'. I have 4 versions of the script (2 more than usual on B5) and only the last one calls the teep prisoner Allison instead of Lyta. There's a slight bit more explanation about how and why she allowed herself to be captured but that's it. Other than that, that portion of the script is almost word-for-word unchanged. And one word *was* removed, of course. Lyta yelling "Lenniiieeerr" triumphantly after she burst from her cell was changed to the panic in the hallway.

Jan

 

[hypatia]

(the actor replacing her was paid for the week)

And your source for this little tid-bit is?

It is barely possible that the other actor worked longer and was paid more - but only because JMS may have padded the role slightly because he was now establishing a brand-new character instead of using one already familiar to B5 fans. I have never heard that she was paid for a full week and can't imagine why anyone in a position to know would have discussed the woman's compensation in public.

I can answer the part about JMS padding the role slightly. Only if you count adding about 2 sentences 'padding'. I have 4 versions of the script (2 more than usual on B5) and only the last one calls the teep prisoner Allison instead of Lyta. There's a slight bit more explanation about how and why she allowed herself to be captured but that's it. Other than that, that portion of the script is almost word-for-word unchanged. And one word *was* removed, of course. Lyta yelling "Lenniiieeerr" triumphantly after she burst from her cell was changed to the panic in the hallway.

Jan

Wow. Thanks, Jan, for the information.

 

[vacantlook]

Jan's knowledge of alternatives in the scripts is quite a joy!!

 

[Jan]

Wow. Thanks, Jan, for the information.

Any time. This long after the series, JMS's posts and the scripts are about all we have available to check back to what happened back then. And it's *no* hardship for me to play with my collection!

Jan

 

[hypatia]

Ah, any excuse for Jan to play with her collection.

 

[KoshN]

So the black (better) uniforms were a smart decision by TNT.

Yes, even a blind squirrel with a nasty headcold can find a nut now and then. :devil:

I also like the black uniforms. The trouble is, JMS shouldn't have been forced to do the uniform change, immediately, MID-season. It throws a monkeywrench into the story continuity, and makes it almost impossible for the writer to make a success out of the first season and not have it all look stupid, like the writer doesn't know what he's doing, which is on course what they want it to look like.

Then, they ask a price for B5 & Crusade that prevents Crusade from going to Sci-Fi. The price was described as a ransom note.

TNT Sci-Fi B5 and Crusade

Yes, SPITE is self-destructive, but some people like the suits at TNT still practice it.

Ordering the episodes was not. *sigh*

Plus they never wanted the first five (the grey-red uniform episodes)...

“Racing the Night” 08/04/1999
“The Memory of War” 08/11/1999
“The Needs of Earth” 08/18/1999
“Visitors from Down the Street” 08/25/1999
“Each Night I Dream of Home” 09/01/1999

... to see the light of day. They tried to stop them from going to post-production. Then they aired all their black uniform episodes, first, and the first five, LAST. They also had looping added to make better sense of their screwed-up order. The looping has the added benefit to TNT of making no correct order possible (without spending money to fix the episodes). That's one of the lasting legacies ot TNT. Then, Warner Brothers loses all the CGI and it becomes virtually impossible to fix the episodes, without some incredibly rich bebefactor coming in and footing the entire bill to just about remake Crusade completely.

When the deck gets stacked against B5 and Crusade, the stackers really go all out.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Add me to the list of those who like Evan Chen's music, and I thgought his battle scene stuff was particularly appropriate, conjuring up the movements of large ships in a void.

I agree that Crusade had potential, and I would have liked to see it continue. But, I think that the other major problem, besides the interference from WB, was that JMS was worn out from his herculean effort on B5, and he needed a good rest.

 

[vacantlook]

...Crusade had potential, and I would have liked to see it continue. But, I think that the other major problem, besides the interference from WB....

TNT Atlanta, not WB.

 

[GKarsEye]

But, I think that the other major problem, besides the interference from WB, was that JMS was worn out from his herculean effort on B5, and he needed a good rest.

But unlike B5, he wasn't going to write all the scripts.