<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Dark Lord wrote:
*sigh*<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Imitating spoo? A truly devious move.
I must counter it with no mercy.
<font size=4 color=#40B040>*SIGH*</font>
It seems that we disagree on some matters, and manage to misread each others' posts on the rest. Allow me to clarify which ones I disagree about... and which ones I believe you have misunderstood.
Firstly about canon: I do not give a damn about canon. My concern is logic. As nothing once aired can be taken back, it is natural that it can be contradicted and corrected in future episodes.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>The Minbari did not attack civilians.
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Yes, they did, because civilians were armed and therefore became warriar caste, to be killed. <shameless snip> Or are you telling me all the civilians on the colonies just sat back and let their military get slaughtered?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Essentially that *is* what I am telling you. They had no ships. Once their ships and planetary defenses were crushed, their space ports destroyed, the Minbari left. Humans on colonies simply had to sit back... and watch their race enter the twilight of evolution.
This was what Minbari strategists had intended. The colonies went through various stages of fear, panic and social instability... and did much to demoralize others.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>It was a fight to the DEATH, and people are thinking we would just sit there and let them wipe us out? BS.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
They had no ships. How do you fight if you have no ships? Jump to the orbit? How do you fight with a slow cargo vessel? Use a shotgun? Try to yell really loud into space?
All suitable vessels were either destroyed by the Minbari or confiscated into Earth Force. In the end, they had no way to fight. The war was light-years away, their homeworld was going to be destroyed (and possibly they too, if they would not flee, hide or seek refuge from alien worlds). They were powerless to help. This fully explains why the wound in Human memories was that deep.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>And they did not bypass colonies, they bypassed ONE colony, mars.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
They bypassed most colonies in this sense: they destroyed military capability, planetary defense and all ships which posed a threat. They left the jump gates intact and proceeded towards other colonies, and eventually Earth.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Why in the hell would it take 2 YEARS for the Minbari to just defeat our space force?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
They agreed, prepared, lauched smaller attacks to evaluate the enemy, gathered intelligence and adapted their fleet/tactics. Their attack gathered power as they moved towards Earth and met more resistance.
They rarely act rashly. Humans start wars, Minbari finish them.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>How would Neroon, trained to kill humans say he killed 50,000 personally if they did not fight on colonies?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Easily. If he lead one fifth of the fleet. Given that we have no info about the Minbari using weapons of mass destruction, this would be most likely. Neroon's expertise into Human weaknesses included both their command structure, technology and biology.
Or perhaps there was an Earth Force space station which resisted and was destroyed? Space stations have large populations and are commanded by Earth Force. They are military. The Babylon stations were an exception.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Secondly, the Minbari avoided fighting on ground. They did not try to occupy. They fought in space, and space was all there was, between them and Earth.
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Assertion with NO evidence. Clearly contradicted by the movie. What battlegroup? Neroon said HE killed 50,000 humans.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Contradicted only by exceptions.
And which casualties did Neroon consider to have killed? Those who he killed personally... or those killed under his orders? You do not know. Hence your assertion is equally unfounded. The only way to find out would be to ask JMS, but this hardly warrants his attention.
Or we can agree to disagree.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Yes, it took two years for an undefeatable enemy who could take out dozens of our ships with ease 2 YEARS to beat our hundred so ships. Uhuh, yeah...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Space is large. Minbari do not start wars, but when drawn into a war, they prepare fully and strike carefully.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>10,000 planet based fighters? Have you been smoking something? Starfuries cannot be planet-based... why?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Did you not see Starfuries flying in Mars atmosphere? Or those taking off from a planet at dawn (dawn only occurs on planets) to face a row of Minbari cruisers in upper atmosphere?
Perhaps you should have looked more carefully. There are space-based Starfuries. And there are planetary Starfuries. And there are many other kinds of space-capable fighters which can be based on planets. Take the Raider fighters. Or the Minbari ones.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Well I should think it was simple, but obviously not. Starfuries also need SUPPORT, they are short ranged.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Defending a planet is a short-range assignment.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>And you are not giving ANY canon proof to back up your claims. It doesn't even add up to 20,000 ships.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
As I said, I do not bother with canon. I try to use logic, admitting that any story will have contradictions. How and whether each of us explains these contradictions is our own preference.
I did not demand that you accept my explanation, I just pointed out the way I explain it.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>17'000 nothing spared, economy adjusted for war. The Minbari overcame them without suffering any significant damage.
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Each warcruiser able to take out a dozen Earth cap ships in days at most. Really, c'mon, think about this. None of this adds up.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And each Minbari fighter took out a dozen Earth fighters. It adds up perfectly, and leaves room for flexing, given the dynamics of rock/paper/scissors.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Even going by on-screen, your numbers are way off. There were hundreds of jump points, and we see beforeheand how many ships are grouped together for each point, there were some dozen.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
On screen: deducting the forect by looking at a tree. The maximum amount of moving objects presentable on a television screen is 50. Fifty, otherwise we would have to start seeing pixels.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>We have a thousand according to a short story written by the same guy. Yet you take the 150 whitestars anyway? Just ignoring fleet size numbers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I assume that JMS can err and contradict himself, that the characters of his stories may contradict themselves, brag and lie.
Neroon could have been bragging with his 50'000 casualties. Garibaldi may have been bragging with his 1000 ships. We just know it was a large conflict, and there were enough White Stars to be reckoned with.
The rest is ours to choose. I chose to follow White Star numeration, where 150 is the largest number mentioned. You chose to follow Garibaldi's remarks about the Earthdome fly-over. Who is right? Is either of us right, and how to prove? Do we have to be right, or are we simply discussing matters?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>There were NO where near that many fighters. And why would they count fighters, the shadows don't, since the fighters are ACTUALLY the cap ship itself. Just broken off. Be like counting a hundred humans, just because one human sneezed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Who said that they don't count fighters. It would depend on the person. Fighters from a completely unarmed base can destroy a capital ship. They are a force to be considered. Even the fighters of a Shadow vessel can be counted -- it depends on the size of the vessel.
As for Shadows and Vorlons, who knows. I cannot prove you that their fighters were counted, I simply assume that. How do you prove me that their fighters were not counted? Given that you can't, you can assume what you consider best.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Add to that thousands of various ships from non-aligned worlds. Most of them with small fighter counts. You will easily get about 4000 ships, many of them medium-sized.
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You're just pulling these numbers from nowehere however. Which are contradicted by other number statements.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I am deducting the numbers with logical consideration. All of our numbers, both yours and mine are contradictory. Yet I believe mine are realistic and fit together. Yours may fit too, on a different scale. JMS has no commitment to statistical accuracy. He has dramatic license and presented what he thought through what the characters said.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Therefore, at the battle of Coriana, the younger races had less ships than fought at the Line, about 10'000. But the power they possessed was much greater, there were more large ships and many medium-sized ships from non-aligned worlds.
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Proof? You just said most of em are fighters, while all the shadows were capships, so that means they wouldn't have lasted a few seconds. Even WITH telepaths the younger races needed 2 for every shadow ship.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Where I said "more" you mamaged to read "most". These words have different meanings. More: relatively more than in a usual fleet of that size. Most: more than fifty percent of that fleet. There were relatively more capital ships (naturally most ships were still fighters).
Besides, who says they had to be equal? Perhaps Sheridan was overly confident, Delenn overestimated her influence, Garibaldi trsuted his agents and Lennier subtracted instead of dividing?
Or perhaps they went to Coriana knowing that they were too few, too weak to win. That their only chance was drawing attention and negotiating, assisted by Lorien.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>The Shadows never prepared for a final battle. It was just a small task force, enough to guard the planetkiller. Coincidentally, the planetkiller was quite capable of looking after itself. It could have destroyed the younger races' fleet without any assistance.
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Where is all this coming from? It is canon that there are 10,000 Vorlon ships. This was sent to Corrianas 6 which has NO defences, and they also sent a fleet to Centauri prime which has very LARGE defences. So therefore, they would send the bigger taskforce to the tougher target.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Coriana and Centauri Prime were equally easy targets for the Vorlons. They could have overwhelmed and destroyed both with an unprotected planetkiller.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>They did not expect the younger races since the listening post was destroyed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Destroying the listening post was needed to sneak in and be heard. Otherwise the situation could have not been created.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Can you at least provide some canon sources?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not really. I must apologize, but I would not bother with that. I feel there is no way and no need to convince you.
My numbers match up for me, and your numbers match up for you. Both seem to have enjoyed the story enough to speculate about it.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>So much so, that a car would have survived that bomb. Many have done calculations on that scene and it turns out to be very illogical.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have done calculations on other issues and found some illogical. But this scene I find to be quite tolerable.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>No, he choose the bombs that had STEALTH. So the bombs would actually get in range.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And how much stealth do you exactly need? On an asteroid with varying surface temperatures and a slight background radiation?
You need very little steath, and fusion bombs of 2247 may not be radioactive. Remember that the element used for fusion bombs today is Tritium (heavy hydrogen). It is detonated by a conventionsl Uranium/Plutonium bomb. Fusion bombs of the future might have no radioactive detonator.
Perhaps the fusion bombs of 2247 are not radioactive at all. All you would need to hide: electronics for a receiver, a non-nuclear detonator and a canister of hydrogen. In low-power standby mode.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Now to the Shadow missiles. They simply destroyed the ship. Clearly not a nuclear explosion. They were not armed. The Shadows would not be stupid enough to blow up their own planetkiller.
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Erm, no. In ACTA it is stated that the missiles are ACTIVE, yet they're the same puny explosions we see in ITF.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It is not the same planetkiller. Who knows what the Drakh did to make it work, besides adding a rigid structure? Remember that the *Shadow* planetkiller had no structure and tended to freeze ships which entered it. Clearly a different thing.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>And why is it clearly not a nuclear explosion? Directed warheads would shoot the visible light to the point it is directed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It is hard to imagine a directed nuclear warhead. The heat would vaporize any container, the cloud of heated gas would radiate in every direction.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>HOw exactly would a SINGLE missile only 2GT's at least be able to destroy a PLANET killer?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You just said that they were all armed. So you can't talk of SINGLE missiles. If any missile would detonate on collision, it would destroy several others around it. The planetkiller would be pretty easy to decimate.
Its strength is having thousands or more missiles -- none of which will help you destroy others. Instead they would destroy you, and the cold cloud around would shut down your ship.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Add-on: Those missiles had to be armed as the missiles can goto the core of planets in about 20 seconds, a ship could never hope to stop something that strong.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You are assuming that they would enter the core by forcing their way through solid matter. The Shadows would not bother with that.
If they can walk through walls and their ships can easily fade into hyperspace, why not their missiles? I would build them this way: they would slip through the planet without resistance, and detonate at their target.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>There is also other canon evidence, AOG talks about the missiles. It says they can attack ships, but they have to be in the cloud and that they will deliver their intended amount of power to that ship.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Firstly, a board game is not canon when contradicted by the series. This is the case. Secondly a two-gigaton explosion is a bright and round flash, vaporizing the ship and debris completely. It is a little sun.
The explosions we saw were not nuclear. If you want to imagine they were, you will have to suspend disbelief and ignore the debris. Which you can do, if you want.
Sorry for the long post, I just needed to nitpick a little.
[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited February 09, 2002).]