Jade Jaguar
Regular
I can't help but wonder if JMS might not omit such a radical detail from program pitches, even if he had it in mind all along.
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Scriptbook #15 Discussion - SPOILER WARNING
- Thread starter vacantlook
- Start date
I can't help but wonder if JMS might not omit such a radical detail from program pitches, even if he had it in mind all along.
vacantlook
Super Moderator
Except the outline wasn't part of any program pitches. In his introduction to the outline in the scriptbook, jms says that as far as he can remember only he and Michael O'Hare have seen the outline before now. That doesn't mean he didn't show it to any of the other producers or to WB, he says, but he does not remember doing so. He specifically says he wrote the outline to see what much of the information he had on his index card notes would look like in a narrative form to be sure his notes could actually be drawn together into an actual story.
Jade Jaguar
Regular
Okay, I realize the outline wasn't specifically written as a pitch, but I figured he would show it to at least some of those who he was pitching. Guess not...
Jan
Regular
There's conflicting information. In the intro for the outline, JMS says that he doesn't remember showing it to anybody other than Michael O'Hare but in the original sales copy description for Volume 15, he wrote:
Jan
mandragora
Member
Whether WB actually got it or not is actually of minor importance, IMO (even though I still find it hard to believe that they'd simply forgotten about their request, hadn't they received the outline they had asked for).
What is more important, IMO, is that the outline apparently was written with at the least the possibility in mind that it might have to be presented to WB. And in that respect, I completely agree with @Jade Jaguar; I find it entirely plausible that elements like an Earth Civil war, or ideological order vs. chaos conflicts, would have been kept out for marketing considerations, namely the possibility that these elements might seem inacceptable for WB.
What is more important, IMO, is that the outline apparently was written with at the least the possibility in mind that it might have to be presented to WB. And in that respect, I completely agree with @Jade Jaguar; I find it entirely plausible that elements like an Earth Civil war, or ideological order vs. chaos conflicts, would have been kept out for marketing considerations, namely the possibility that these elements might seem inacceptable for WB.
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Chris Springob
Regular
JMS has been extremely open in the scriptbooks, and if he deliberately left certain things out of the story outline because he didn't want WB to see it, he probably would have 'fessed up to that. Anyway, the Earth Civil War not being in the "original" story outline doesn't seem that remarkable to me, given how different that outline is from the actual show we got (at least for Seasons 3-5....Seasons 1-2 are pretty similar). Remember, the *Shadow War* as such doesn't even happen during the 5 year timeline in the original outline. It's shunted off to the spinoff series.
The outline maps out a story in which far far less happens during the 5 year run of the series than what we got in the actual show. So much of the interesting stuff was intended to be in Babylon Prime.
The outline maps out a story in which far far less happens during the 5 year run of the series than what we got in the actual show. So much of the interesting stuff was intended to be in Babylon Prime.
mandragora
Member
Well, as I'm not a telepath I can't know what he would or wouldn't have done ... especially given that the whole original five year plan is something I hadn't thought he would have done 
I tend to agree with respect to the Earth civil war, though. I think that part was probably at most a remote possibility. My doubts concern primarily the absence of the Order vs Chaos conflict. For the Shadows are named Shadows for a distinct reason, because of the Babylonian creation myth thing and because the idological part of the Shadow agenda was clearly present in "Signs and Portents". Therefore I find the absence of that conflict in the outline a bit strange - maybe it was kept out because philosophical themes like these weren't exactly common in early 1990s TV shows.
I tend to agree with respect to the Earth civil war, though. I think that part was probably at most a remote possibility. My doubts concern primarily the absence of the Order vs Chaos conflict. For the Shadows are named Shadows for a distinct reason, because of the Babylonian creation myth thing and because the idological part of the Shadow agenda was clearly present in "Signs and Portents". Therefore I find the absence of that conflict in the outline a bit strange - maybe it was kept out because philosophical themes like these weren't exactly common in early 1990s TV shows.
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Chris Springob
Regular
How was the ideological component of the Shadows' motives present in "Signs and Portents"? Just because Morden asks "What do you want?"? Anyway, even if it's true that the "order vs. chaos" thing was present by "Signs and Portents", it doesn't mean that it was present at the time JMS wrote this outline. Remember, there is nothing to suggest that JMS didn't start deviating from that outline until Michael O'Hare left. My hunch is that he was already revising things in Season 1.
mandragora
Member
Yep
(nods). To quote jms: "Yes, there's a certain Jungian influence in the shadows, in that the shadow as Jung referred to it was unbridled want, unbridled need, and that's what they appeal to.
jms."
Even though this quote dates from 1996, I think it's safe to assume that this idea was there right from the start, since jms, having studied psychology, would have certainly been aware of it longl before 1996, and I think it's unlikely he would have named them "shadows" without having thought of it. It's a small extension from the shadow self to an ideology embracing "chaos and evolution", because preserving oneself in the evolutionary struggle is another aspect that's important concerning the shadow self.
I agree.
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Recoil
Regular
Question:
I am on the B5 Scripts mailing list, and I had started purchasing the Script books some time ago, but only have 5 currently, with another 2 on order. I will eventually have them all, its just that I'm taking my time in buying them.
So...given I'm buying them like this, how would I end up getting Volume 15 since it seems to be set up as a bonus? I'd really like to have it given all the goodies it has about the original arc, and especially Jan's section (which is a VERY cool thing you did btw)
Anyone know the answer to this?
I am on the B5 Scripts mailing list, and I had started purchasing the Script books some time ago, but only have 5 currently, with another 2 on order. I will eventually have them all, its just that I'm taking my time in buying them.
So...given I'm buying them like this, how would I end up getting Volume 15 since it seems to be set up as a bonus? I'd really like to have it given all the goodies it has about the original arc, and especially Jan's section (which is a VERY cool thing you did btw)
Anyone know the answer to this?
Chris Springob
Regular
Well, we may be splitting hairs here. Even in the outline, it sounds like the Shadows thought that the Vorlons meddling so much with the younger races was a bad idea in and of itself. It's just that the outline also makes it sound like the Shadows' primary goal was a selfish one....that they wanted to be top dog in the Galaxy rather than the Vorlons. Whereas in the actual show, the Shadows' motives are portrayed as purely ideological. Whether JMS had actually thought of it in terms of "order vs. chaos" at the time he wrote the outline or at the time he wrote "Signs and Portents" is unclear, even if something like that idea was there from the beginning.
When exactly JMS decided that the Shadows motives were purely ideological and/or about "proving to the Vorlons that they knew better how to guide the younger races" (as opposed to also being motivated by wanting power for themselves) is unclear. It's entirely possible that he hadn't decided to go quite that far with it up until he wrote "Z'ha'dum". We can't know for sure.
When exactly JMS decided that the Shadows motives were purely ideological and/or about "proving to the Vorlons that they knew better how to guide the younger races" (as opposed to also being motivated by wanting power for themselves) is unclear. It's entirely possible that he hadn't decided to go quite that far with it up until he wrote "Z'ha'dum". We can't know for sure.
vacantlook
Super Moderator
The most recent update sent out by the scripts team contained this:
To me, that sounds like as long as you buy the first 13, submit your proof of purchase form to the scripts team, which is done via the internet, and then order #14 before June 30th, you'd get the bonus 15th. But don't take my word on it; I'd recommend emailing the scripts team help@Babylon5scripts.com and ask them directly.
Jan
Regular
Time is quickly running out. The 14-volume series will only be available until June 30 and then they'll be gone forever. You've got 47 days left.
Thanks, I enjoyed doing it. To answer your question, once you've ordered them all, go immediately (within 20 minutes of ordering #14) to http://www.babylon5scripts.com/proof/ (do not pass go, do not collect $200) to fill out your proof of purchase. You'll need your order numbers but just follow the directions on that page and you'll be fine, trust me.
Once your Proof of Purchase is completed and approved, Volume 15 will ship automatically with Volume 14. Cool, huh? Believe me, the Scripts Team did everything possible to make it easy but as fraudproof as possible.
I do but I'm not telling! :devil:
EDIT: Oh. look! VL and I were working on the same thing at once again!
Jan
vacantlook
Super Moderator
Yeah, but there is a difference between what you posted and what I posted. My forgetful mind forgot that I included the volume 14 order number on the proof of purchase form. For some reason just now I was thinking I had only done the first thirteen and didn't have to worry about the 14th number, but reading your explanation and thinking back I realize I did do the 14th order number after all. It's just having gone so long between ordering #14 and it actually being shipped with their whole delay to let jms autograph all the volume 15s made my memory go all wonky.
So, thanks for posting your explanation 'cause it corrects something I misremembered.
Telepath
Member
I have finally received my vol. 15. Here are my ideas on the outline:
1. Aw hell, was I wrong in re-constructing the "original arc" in my mind ;-) And I'm glad about it - I like the show we got more than what was in that original outline.
2. Based on season 1 which mentions Valen and his prophecies (Delenn's transformation), and on the fact that the child of Delenn and Sinclair would have become A RELIGIOUS ICON because of its innocence, and on the fact that Valen's prophecies have to come from somewhere, and with Sinclair out of the picture, I suspect that the child of Delenn and Sinclair would have gone back in time to become Valen, although it is not explicitly stated in the outline. Someone had to do so, and I think that's the most logical choice. Plus, the hybrid child would also be a "Minbari not born of Minbari" and it would be the savior of the galaxy both in the 2nd and 3rd age of man. That's a thought I rather like.
3. "Traces of Valen's soul in Sinclair's body" were found when the Minbari interrogated him (rough quotation from JMS, vol.1 Scriptbooks). If his child would have been Valen rather than himself, that would still have made a lot of sense.
1. Aw hell, was I wrong in re-constructing the "original arc" in my mind ;-) And I'm glad about it - I like the show we got more than what was in that original outline.
2. Based on season 1 which mentions Valen and his prophecies (Delenn's transformation), and on the fact that the child of Delenn and Sinclair would have become A RELIGIOUS ICON because of its innocence, and on the fact that Valen's prophecies have to come from somewhere, and with Sinclair out of the picture, I suspect that the child of Delenn and Sinclair would have gone back in time to become Valen, although it is not explicitly stated in the outline. Someone had to do so, and I think that's the most logical choice. Plus, the hybrid child would also be a "Minbari not born of Minbari" and it would be the savior of the galaxy both in the 2nd and 3rd age of man. That's a thought I rather like.
3. "Traces of Valen's soul in Sinclair's body" were found when the Minbari interrogated him (rough quotation from JMS, vol.1 Scriptbooks). If his child would have been Valen rather than himself, that would still have made a lot of sense.
Recoil
Regular
Thanks for the info Jan and VL. What I did was place an order for remaining volumes up to 13. I then took those order numbers and filled out the verification form. From what I read, they will email me within 7 days with my approval....then I'll order Volume 14 and receive both 14 and 15 in the same shipment.
Thanks for the heads-up.
Thanks for the heads-up.
Jan
Regular
Actually, you probably remembered correctly because, you may recall, we started the PoP process when #13 came out and the scripts team matched up the approved forms with the Volume 14 orders. The idea at the time was to keep shipping delay to a minimum but that was before JMS went into the signing bunker.
The instructions I gave just take into account that now the whole set can be ordered but the PoP is still the same, it's just that it needs to be done very shortly after ordering. The SCripts team wouldn't want anybody to incur extra shipping charges from having to do separate orders.
Jan
Chris Springob
Regular
It's not clear that there was originally going to be any kind of "scientific explanation" for why the prophecies would be accurate. (The scientific explanation being that someone brought the information back in time.) I mean, even in the show as filmed, how do you explain Zathras knowing that Sheridan will be "The One Who Will Be"? Or how do you explain the Centauri Seer knowing the future or the Centauri being able to see their own deaths? There's no scientific explanation presented for that stuff. It's just "somehow, the universe knows what's going to happen in the future".
So it's perfectly believable that JMS did not originally intend anyone from the future to go back in time and become Valen, and thereby provide an explanation for the prophecies.
vacantlook
Super Moderator
It seems so long ago that I submitted my PoP, I honestly can't be sure of what I did. I must've done it right since I got my volume 15. :thumbsup: What I can say with certainty is when in doubt, email the scripts team and ask. They always replied quickly and were always helpful in addressing all of my concerns.
