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Shelob ROCKS! (spoilers for ROTK)

I have just seen the movie, and must agree with everyone - this is one of the best movies ever made. Just amazing. The experience just left me drained.

My favourite part - the charge of the Rohirrim - simply beautiful and so uplifting.

I also agree with the others that scenes with Denethor and the Palantir would have been useful for his character, but at the current running time, I can understand why it would be left out.

Another great thing about the movie is the little touches that Jackson adds for those who are really into their LOTR lore. One that my wife picked up was that she noted that the top level of Minas Tirith looked like the prow of a great ship. A great visual touch reminding us of the origins of Gondor being the last remnant of Numenor, and the great Ship-Kings of old.

Also great was the battering ram in the shape of a wolf - the great wolf of Morgoth in the first age, who ate one of the Silmarils of Feanor - hence the fire in his mouth and insides.

It's those little touches that also raise this movie beyond the run of the mill fantasy movie.

Superb.
 
{snip}Bilbo carried the ring for years and showed only a little bit of obvious corruption, Frodo carried it for several months and his corruption by the ring was very gradual, and Sam carried it for a few hours (maybe a few days) but seemed to remain himself fairly well.
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The Ring Holders were chosen. The Ring chose Deagol and Smeagol so it could have picked already evil hobits. Sam and Frodo were chosen by the wizard, so hobits able to resist the ring could have been picked.
 
Another great thing about the movie is the little touches that Jackson adds for those who are really into their LOTR lore. One that my wife picked up was that she noted that the top level of Minas Tirith looked like the prow of a great ship. A great visual touch reminding us of the origins of Gondor being the last remnant of Numenor, and the great Ship-Kings of old.

Also great was the battering ram in the shape of a wolf - the great wolf of Morgoth in the first age, who ate one of the Silmarils of Feanor - hence the fire in his mouth and insides.

It's those little touches that also raise this movie beyond the run of the mill fantasy movie.
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Peter Jackson didn't add them - they were already described as such in the books.
 
Peter Jackson didn't add them - they were already described as such in the books.
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What I should have said is "the little touches that Jackson includes", because as Nukemall points out, it is in the book.

Still great to see though.
 
I'm gradually coming to the conclusion that a) some of my minor quibbles will be cleared up by the EE and b) Jackson and Co. did such a great job with most of the stuff in the movies that a problem or two are forgiveable. I tend to leave the room when Arwen does her "Frodo, no!" routine in Fellowship anyway, so I can do the same for the stupid Frodo/Sam argument scene. It'll make a good bathroom break.

Also, I just finished reading the books. I'm amazed at how much of the dialogue -- although moved around, placed in a different context, etc. -- is straight from "the sacred texts," or is, as my parents are calling it, "historical."

Wormtongue's great lines to Eowyn about the walls of her room closing in is actually spoken by Gandalf in the book, only after she's been hurt by the Nazgul, and with considerably more pity. And Gandalf's wonderful lines to Pippin about what happens after death -- and who would know better than him? -- are lifted from the narration from two places, once from Bombadil's house, once from the very end... ah well. Enough dorkish detail.
 
I finally went to see rotk. I got tired of waiting for my friends and went with my brother instead. :rolleyes: It was freaking awesome! Now I really have to reread the books. And see the movie again. :p
 
I went again and took a friend.

HE SNORED :eek: :mad:

I should have poked him harder in the ribs.

Anyway, I was trying to keep an eye open for Peter Jackson, as I know he's in there somewhere. I think I spotted him in

SPIOLER?









The charge of the Rohirrim. Can anyone confirm this?
 
The Ring chose Deagol and Smeagol so it could have picked already evil hobits. Sam and Frodo were chosen by the wizard, so hobits able to resist the ring could have been picked.
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I have to disagree.

The Ring only "chose" Deagol to find it because he was its time was approaching and he was the first likely candidate to happen by. Smeagol was chosen because he was already a sneaking thing with a glint of evil in him. (As is made clear from the books.)

Bilbo is chosen by Providence, as is repeatedly stated in the books, and through him first Frodo and then Sam are chosen. Gandalf does not "chose" Frodo. He merely urges Bilbo to do what he wanted to do, and helps give him the strength to do it. Sam, in effect, choses himself as the one companion who will never leave Frodo because of their deep friendship. Frodo similarly confirms his selection at the Council of Elrond by volunteering to bear the Ring. Elrond does not choose him for the task. (And specifically disclaims any right or power to lay the burden on anyone.)

The hobbits are remarkable for their endurance. Frodo's trial is especially heavy because he bears the Ring inside Mordor itself, where is master's malevolent power is at its greatest. Also because the Ring is more dangerous to him than to the others. Frodo is not a "simple hobbit" His dealings with the Elves and Gandalf make him a deeper thinker than the others, and give him a kind of wisdom that only deepens through the course of the journey and his encounters with Elrond and Galadriel.

The Ring, remember, gives power according to the stature of the bearer. That's why it gained so little from the stunted Gollum, and from the benevolent Bilbo, but was such a temptation and danger to the already powerful like Aragorn, Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel (none of whom even trusted themselves to touch it.) By the end of the story Frodo's stature is becoming more like these "greats" and less like his fellow hobbits, which is one reason that he fails to complete the Quest, and instead tries to seize the Ring for himself and challenge Sauron. (It is also why Sauron would be distracted by the approach of Aragorn's army, where he thinks the ring must be, held by some mighty one who will try to spring a surprise attack.)

It is partially this lack of power, but also partly simplicity and virtue, that makes Bilbo and Sam unique among all those who have ever borne the Ring: they are the only ones who ever voluntarily gave the Ring up to another. Bilbo struggled, Sam hesitated more from concern for Frodo than out of desire for the Ring. But those two are it. Sauron had it cut from his hand. (His dead hand in the book.) It escaped from Isilidur and betrayed him. Gollum lost it. Frodo tried to become a Dark Lord himself before Gollum bit part of his finger off and tumbled into the Cracks of Doom - which can only happen because first Bilbo, then Aragorn (during his errand for Gandalf in the books) then Frodo, then Sam all chose not to kill Gollum when given the chance.

As Gandalf says, Frodo was meant to have the Ring and not by its maker - but also not by Gandalf himself.

Regards,

Joe
 
The hobbits are remarkable for their endurance.

Yes, Hobbits do seem to be quite tough.

SPOILER!

Pippin bounces back quite quickly from his looking into the Palintir, while doing the same perverted Saruman, and drove Denethor mad. [okay, Denethor and Saruman probably had repeated viewings into the Palintir]

When Merry and Eowyn kill the Witchking [in the book], Eowyn immediately collapses, and goes into a coma caused by the Ringwraith's "black breath" [in the book it is also the real cause of Faramir's collapse]. Merry however, stays on his feet for quite some time, follows some Riders carrying Eowyn and Theoden back to Minas Tirith, and makes it into Minas Tirith, before he becomes confused, gets lost, and is found by Pippin, who has to send for help. Gandalf finds the pair, and has to carry a now unconscious Merry to the Houses of Healing. Later, after being healed by Aragorn, Merry bounces back a lot faster than Faramir and Eowyn, and immediately wants something to eat!

SPOILER END

There is another cameo in the film. When Faramir leads his men through the city for the final fatal assault on Osgiliath, women and children line the streets. Two of the kids are Jackson's own kids. They made an appearance as Hobbit children in FOTR, and as Rohan children in TTT.
Sean Astin's daughter also turns up as Sam's daughter right at the end.
 
okay, Denethor and Saruman probably had repeated viewings into the Palintir
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More than that: They actually conversed with Sauron and tried to wrest control of the orb from him. Pippin merely saw Sauron and listened to him, he didn't speak, and Sauron - assuming that Pippin was Sauraman's prisoner - declined to question him, looking forward to torturing him in person once he was transferred to Barad'Dur.

If there is one thing I really regret in the films it is the loss of the palantir storyline. Frankly I think there are other things in RotK that could have been given a little less screen time to make room for it.

What Jackson does brilliantly and correctly in many places is spell out things that Tolkein under-wrote, like the importance of Arwen in Aragorn's life and fate. I wish he had done the same with the palantiri, which are so important to the whole story if you pay attention to all the clues set out in the books:

1. Sauraman lied to the other members of the White Council, telling them that the Orthanc Stone was gone when he took possession. It was the first of many betrayals of the group. When he used the Stone to seek the Ring and to probe Sauron's defenses, which eventually led to his being ensared by the Dark Lord and enlisted in his service.

2. With Denethor Sauron took a different tack - sensing the Steward's pride Sauron let Denethor think he had succeeded in taking control of the stone, then used it against him. Sauron "edited" all the Denethor saw, always making Mordor and its allies look stronger than they were, while making the West appear weak. The despair grew in Denethor until the death of Boromir and the sight of the dying Faramir drove him to madness and suicide.

3. After Helm's Deep Aragorn takes the Orthanc Stone from Gandalf, who has been debating whether or not to test his own strength against Sauron. Gandalf gives it to Aragorn, but tells him not to try to use it - yet. Aragorn replies that his hour is growing near. Gandalf repeats his caution, but Aragorn spends a sleepless night alone in a tower room, and the next day witnesses report seeing strange lights shining there.

Aragorn does in fact use the Stone, reveal himself as the rightful King of Gondor and show Sauron the Sword Reforged. (Another thread that gets lost. Far from being a vague symbol of evil, Sauron is an Earthly ruler and a rebel against the rightful authority of both the Valar and their students, the Kings of Men descended from the Faithful of Numenor. Sauron's political opposite number is not Frodo or Gandalf, but Aragorn.) Sauron can only assume that Aragorn will soon take up the Ring and attack him. So Sauron decides to strike first, before Aragorn can master the Ring.

Aragorn is then able to truly take control of the Stone, and that's how he learns about the approach of the pirate fleet, and why he decides to take the path of the dead. As noted, this is also why Sauron launches his war against Minas Tirith before he is ready, why he releases the Great Darkness that blinds his own men nearly as much as his enemies, and why he all-but empties his lands just as Frodo and Sam are approaching Minas Morgul and the pass of Cirith Ungol.

It is only because Sauron strikes before he is ready, because the Riders of Rohan arrive in time and because Aragorn arrives by sea instead of the priates that Minas Tirith survives the first onslaught, and only that survival that allows Aragorn to lead his tiny army to the Black Gate and fatally distract Sauron just at the moment when Frodo is reaching the Cracks of Doom. In the books, all of this is the result of direct or indirect uses of the Seeing Stones, and none of it makes it into the films, as least the theatrical cuts.

I still think the movies are masterpieces, but I can pine away for little, favorite things like anybody else. :)

Regards,

Joe
 
Peter Jackson cameos as the captain of one of the Corsair ships in ROTK.
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Oh my! So it wasn't as one of the Rohirrim? Gracious me! :eek: Next time I go see the movie, I will be watching those pirates very closely.

Angel
 
Not to jump totally off-topic, but am I crazy to expect an LOTR MTV Movie Awards sketch this year featuring Tony Sheloub? I just see Adrian Monk dusting his cave and telling Frodo to wipe his feet. :D
 
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