Teep homeworld

[Jan]

And in the ep where Delenn cremates that Mimbari Captain - they were afraid the Pak'ma'ra ate the captain. So I would think they do eat people.

However, good point...maybe someone else has more information on the Pak'ma'ra???

I'll check the League of Non-Alligned Worlds document when I get home. I believe there's substantial information about the pak'ma'ra in that.

The bit about having the pak'ma'ra stomachs pumped in "Legacies" always bothered me. Wouldn't that have been a major incident when all they had was a piece as evidence of the robe?? I can see forcing *one* pak'ma'ra to get his stomach pumped if they had evidence of him being a (for lack of a better term) cannibal-of-sentients, but *every* single one on the station? I think that was one of those things written for story convenience, not for logic.

ETA: Okay, I've looked at the League document and it says::

They are carrion-eaters, subsisting solely off dead, putrefying animal flesh, usually once a week. It is not a pleasant sight.

Jan

 

[B5_Obsessed]

They are carrion-eaters, subsisting solely off dead, putrefying animal flesh, usually once a week.

But not the fish of the sea.

 

[fisheggs]

So, Charley the Tuna is safe?:devil:

 

[maneth]

This is really interesting! The problem with the Teeps in general and Byron in particular was that they couldn't think in the long term. Perhaps Draal could have been persuaded to host the Teeps until the Markab homeworld could be declared safe?

 

[Republibot 3.0]

Not that there seems to be any shortage of habitable worlds in the B5 universe, but:

There appeared to be well less than 100 people in Byron's group, easily within the abilities of the ISA to transport them to Markab. Even with billions of dead, it was three years by that point, and most of the worst of the problem would be over. Even so, there were unquestionably been the equivalent of, say, polynesian islands with little or no population that could support people indefinitely.

Drop the teeps off on one of these, give 'em supplies and survival manuals and come back to check on 'em occasionally. By the time their numbers have swelled to the point that the islands can't hold 'em, the continents will be fine again.

The lack of a jumpgate could actually be an attractive quality.

 

[Jan]

Do we know whether any of the plant and animal life on Markab would be edible and/or nutritious for humans (okay, there's orcha juice but we don't know if it's nutritious)? What do we know about the climate? The Markab obviously had much thicker hides than humans so perhaps they thought that a nice brisk sandstorm was the best of weather. That could follow since they don't have nostrils.

Also, with no jumpgate, do we know how long it would take to travel there in normal space from the nearest remaining jumpgate?

I think it wasn't so much a matter of finding a habitable planet for the telepaths, though. It was that the Alliance would be giving in to blackmail if they did. Sheridan couldn't give in to that demand any more than he could bargain with the hostage-takers in Medlab.

Jan

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Well, it wasn't blackmail at the outset. Everyone but Clark and his admin. owed the teeps their lives. I agree with Republibot, a solution could, and should, have been found. But, I think even blackmail can be overlooked when it comes from a group fleeing extermination, and to whom so much is owed. Just as the way Lyta was treated, the treatment the teeps received was quite out of character for the B5 staff, well, except for Lochley.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

Byron panicked and forced Sheridan into a corner. His actions then proceeded to make an enemy out of every race on Babylon 5, so they were not going to give him anything. The war telepaths may be owed a reward for their actions in the Shadow War but Byron's group were pacifists - they did not take part.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

They got tough after they had failed with more reasonable methods.

They, like all teeps, were created by the Vorlons, to be used as weapons.

They didn't become pacifists until after the war. Rember, Byron was one of the worst of the lot of Psicorps.

 

[KoshFan]

Yeah, Byron panicked/overreacted. I keep saying, if he'd gone to Delenn...

As to the treatment of Lyta and the other teeps: I don't think it's totally out of character. Sheridan and Garibaldi had been shown to be quite wary of telepaths quite early on, and they'd been walking all over Lyta for a long time -- perhaps because she let them, perhaps because they had reason to be suspicious of her (first a teep, then a rebel teep, then someone who's been to the Vorlon homeworld and won't talk about it, finally a teep who's completely off-the-charts powerful). She was an unknown quantity for quite some time, and they never let themselves get close to her. Probably their failing. Ivanova, of course, would have been even more wary than any of them.

Delenn no doubt would have been kinder to Lyta, but they weren't often in contact. It's made clear on numerous occasions that Zach's the only one Lyta might even begin to call a friend, before Byron turns up.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

I keep saying, if he'd gone to Delenn...

I used to holler that at him as I watched...

 

[Galahad]

But I don't think he was ever going to...

I've always believed his sexual encounter with Lyta telepathically pushed him over the edge.

She said she would more than likely burn him due to her uberpowerful P rating.

Yes I know he learns the truth about how telepaths have been created and "sees" just how the various species were treated as guinea pigs by the Vorlons to bring them into being... but I think it was more than mere knowledge and emotion that make him change tack. I think that he was slightly overcooked and that caused him to respond differently and more intensely.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

So, Byron became a martyr because sex with Lyta was too hot for him to handle?

 

[dreamer]

Byron was in an impossible situation and he wasn't a very good leader. His whole passive resistance act did disservice for the flock that seemed to consist of either hotheads or tiny mice. Leading with example doesn't really teach anything. It merely suggests without reasoning and the teeps needed guidance. Trying to shoulder it all alone pushed Byron over the ledge - one might blame Lyta for this, since instead of finding help and peace, Byron found something more to blame for their situation.

I think it would've done Byron himself a world of good to bump into G'kar, and possibly even peek into his mind and find something unexpected there and ask help from him. Maybe the teeps would've even been welcome to G'kar's lectures about his gained insight and confusion. And maybe the narn would've welcomed the teeps among them or accomodated them with a place of their own, or so on.

 

[KoshFan]

Great idea about G'Kar, that's a whole new angle -- but I have to say that passive resistance and leading by example aren't necessarily bad things, when done properly. If anything, Byron abandoned nonviolence himself when he tried blackmail.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

Yeah, Byron panicked/overreacted. I keep saying, if he'd gone to Delenn...

As to the treatment of Lyta and the other teeps: I don't think it's totally out of character. Sheridan and Garibaldi had been shown to be quite wary of telepaths quite early on, and they'd been walking all over Lyta for a long time -- perhaps because she let them, perhaps because they had reason to be suspicious of her (first a teep, then a rebel teep, then someone who's been to the Vorlon homeworld and won't talk about it, finally a teep who's completely off-the-charts powerful). She was an unknown quantity for quite some time, and they never let themselves get close to her. Probably their failing. Ivanova, of course, would have been even more wary than any of them.

Delenn no doubt would have been kinder to Lyta, but they weren't often in contact. It's made clear on numerous occasions that Zach's the only one Lyta might even begin to call a friend, before Byron turns up.

I don't actually recall Sheridan being at all uneasy or untrusting around Teeps, excepting Bester. Garibaldi, definitely, absolutely, but I can't think of an example ofSheridan off the top o' m'brain...

 

[Republibot 3.0]

Byron was in an impossible situation and he wasn't a very good leader. His whole passive resistance act did disservice for the flock that seemed to consist of either hotheads or tiny mice. Leading with example doesn't really teach anything. It merely suggests without reasoning and the teeps needed guidance. Trying to shoulder it all alone pushed Byron over the ledge - one might blame Lyta for this, since instead of finding help and peace, Byron found something more to blame for their situation.

I think it would've done Byron himself a world of good to bump into G'kar, and possibly even peek into his mind and find something unexpected there and ask help from him. Maybe the teeps would've even been welcome to G'kar's lectures about his gained insight and confusion. And maybe the narn would've welcomed the teeps among them or accomodated them with a place of their own, or so on.

I disagree a bit: Leading by Example is *extremely* effective, though it's not applicable to all situations. Sheridan, as president, made a concerted effort to lead by example, Ivonova went out to fight in the Battle of Epsilon 3 because the command staff needed to set an example. I'd also maintain that leading by example is *EXTREMELY* effective if you're trying to start a movement. Jesus and Gandhi did it, and they were both pretty successful...

I do agree that Byron was a really bad leader, however, and one of the things that confuses me about Season 5 is that no one seems to notice it. In fact, we're given the hard sell that he's some kind of super-de-duper organizer and crap, when in fact all he's managed to do is strand a bunch of people in an obvious target, where they live in a slum and sleep on the floor. I take him as a bad leader, you take him as a bad leader, but I'm not sure he was intended that way, and I'm not sure JMS *thought* he was a bad leader. I've suspected at times that Joe might have intended him as a secular Christ figure, with Lyta as his Apostle Paul.

As an aside, this is part of my larger problems with S5. We see another example in "A View From the Gallery" (An episode everyone loves, but I can't stand) in which Mack and Bo talk about how cool and wonderful and amazing and stalwart that Lochley is, with really no evidence whatsoever. In essence, it's a hard sell for us, the audience, to accept her based on stuff we've heard and not what we've seen. It bugged me.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

Great idea about G'Kar, that's a whole new angle -- but I have to say that passive resistance and leading by example aren't necessarily bad things, when done properly. If anything, Byron abandoned nonviolence himself when he tried blackmail.

More to the point, why didn't G'kar approach Byron? The Narn have made attempts to buy Telepath DNA on (evidently) several occasions, Byron's crew could have provided him with scores of different viable samples. In exchange, I'm sure the Narn would have been only too happy to provide them with a world in their own space, or, failing that, a continent on some underpopulated world, or at least a big space station of their own, and certainly the Narn would have defended them if it was in their own benefit to do so. And G'Kar *must* have known what was going on with them, at least to some extent.

 

[dreamer]

Well, I was handling out Darwin Awards when the B5 teeps got to the end of their line. It just was so dumb and forced. The story idea wasn't half bad I guess, but it's not the only thing that was mishandled.

It's still the best damned show I've ever seen. I guess I've watched it through 3-4 times this year alone.

I don't particularly enjoy nitpicking B5, but I've started to take out notes on story ideas set in B5 universe. Analyzing it the best that I can. I think the first story idea came few years back when watching Sheridan destroying that Markab jumpgate - I started thinking who might've gotten stranded on the other side. Graverobbers, for one, like Sheridan himself said and seemed to switch off his humanitarian side complitely

 

[Jade Jaguar]

More to the point, why didn't G'kar approach Byron? The Narn have made attempts to buy Telepath DNA on (evidently) several occasions, Byron's crew could have provided him with scores of different viable samples. In exchange, I'm sure the Narn would have been only too happy to provide them with a world in their own space, or, failing that, a continent on some underpopulated world, or at least a big space station of their own, and certainly the Narn would have defended them if it was in their own benefit to do so. And G'Kar *must* have known what was going on with them, at least to some extent.

I agree. That makes a lot of sense.