The Arrogant Sheridan

[Tarondor]

I think our answers to this question say more about us than about Sheridan. In my experience, people described as arrogant are usually people willing to make difficult decisions.

If Sheridan is arrogant, so must every successful military commander be. He takes actions that risk some things and not others. Very, very rarely was Sheridan ever given a clear-cut choice. It was nearly always an array of choices that would have negative consequences no matter what.

Seems to me that the only way to avoid the label of arrogance in a situation like that is to do nothing.

So, if Sheridan is arrogant, give me arrogant leaders every time!

 

[sleepy_shadow]

I would somewhat disagree. Arrogance is likely to detriment consideration of enough options. It can easily result in finding the *wrong* answer to a difficult question.

Ability to recognize that something isn't sufficiently clear to decide... is a vital precondition to *finding out* which parameters are most relevant to the choice (either via consideration or experiment) and thereafter choosing better.

Simply assuming that "my way must be correct", one can quickly stumble on quite serious errors. Not a desirable property for anyone, least of all someone advising others (or worse still, commanding them).

 

[PillowRock]

I would somewhat disagree. Arrogance is likely to detriment consideration of enough options. It can easily result in finding the *wrong* answer to a difficult question.

I think that you and the previous poster are really addressing different things.

You are talking about the problems involved in being arrogant.

They were talking about patterns of behavior that lead to one being perceived, by some, as arrogant.

Those are two different things.

 

[GKarsEye]

In my experience, people described as arrogant are usually people willing to make difficult decisions.

Yeah, and sometimes they're just arrogant.

 

[QMCO5]

It seems I have touched some nerves. I guess my analysis comes from a different perspective having spent 26 years in the Army. As more than one of you has noted arrogance is in the eye of the beholder. I was a unit commander three different times and I'm sure some my subordinates thought I was arrogant. Sacrifice for others may be a virtue in some circumstances, like Jesus Christ, but for a military leader to abandon his forces to an uncertain fate while he proceeds on a risky personal plan (remember he hasn't read the Technomage novels) borders on the criminal. Please don't confuse my criticism of the character's decision in this instance as a criticism of JMS. Some of you seem the think that the story could only go the way JMS wrote it. Give him more credit for creativity. JMS purposely wrote the story with this tragic element, eloquently summarized by the scene of Delenn in bed alone at the end of Sleeping in Light.

QMCO5

 

[KoshFan]

Sacrifice for others may be a virtue in some circumstances, like Jesus Christ, but for a military leader to abandon his forces to an uncertain fate while he proceeds on a risky personal plan (remember he hasn't read the Technomage novels) borders on the criminal.

Looked at that way, your standpoint makes sense. But also remember this: Sheridan was the only one who could pull off the plan because he was the only one who'd been invited. And he knew he could get in, at least a little ways. And he knew he had Kosh, or a fragment of Kosh, with him. And he'd just won a battle at a very steep price -- too steep to be paid again.

When you're up against an enemy as powerful as the Shadows, risky plans are required -- and he was the only one who could pull the plan off.

But yes, the situation was created by JMS with that empty bed in mind.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

What Sheridan failed to do was leave things in a state in which it would be easy for Delenn, Garibaldi and Ivanova to take over. The aliens hid rather than attack the breach in the Shadows defences. This probably required an extra message to rally them.

 

[GKarsEye]

I just watched the last two eps of season 3 (I happen to have been re-watching the series with my sis and we were up to that last night), and I really don't know what else Sheridan was supposed to have done. Remember that this all happened right after Sheridan and Delenn led a successful victory against the Shadows by using telepaths and bringing many races together. The Shadows knew it was Sheridan who could destroy their plans. They all knew the Shadows would be after them. In other words- they were fucked. And without Babylon 5 and the delicate alliance, there would be no hope. So he acted to save them.

His only "arrogance" was in hoping to change some of the stuff he saw in his leap forward. He over-reasoned that aspect of it (the claim that not going might have actually caused it, etc), but I think he did that only after he decided to take the opportunity to strike at the heart of the Shadows.

 

[sleepy_shadow]

The aliens hid rather than attack the breach in the Shadows defences.

When not alerted to unavoidable things (Babylon 4, the vessel being excavated, and the Ranger base under siege) Sheridan himself "hid" quite similarly... because he too was at loss... regarding how to take initiative against Shadows.

Humanoid civilizations, likewise their arrangements for war... were prepared for opponents who drew strength from static planetary bases. Locations which one could attack, confident of successful attack hurting the enemy -- and confident of them bothering to defend.

Shadows presented preciously few such things... and with the possible exception of their homeworld... none of those could be considered high-value. Nobody in the Alliance was particularly good at guessing where their fleets could be found (or better yet, where those fleets were built).

The lucky strike of intercepting an ongoing move (Sector 83?) would hardly repeat... and even a series of lucky strikes... would only lead to wholesale destruction of Alliance ships... by presumably more numerous, more destructive yet less expensive ships.

Taking initiative in such a situation... might simply be gathering up resources... to make a big target. Perhaps the aliens knew... that such a difficult enemy could reasonably be expected to wipe the floor with a fleet blindly looking for them.

Even after returning from Z'ha'dum with a *very* capable advisor... did Sheridan *not* consider it efficient to try attacking targets of value.

He only tried reliably arranging another meeting.

 

[LondosHair]

Actually, I don't think Sheridan was arrogant, which means to exaggerate his own worth or importance in an over bearing manner. He was determined, and generally self confident, but he was in charge, it was his duty to lead, and he was not abusive to his subordinates. I can see where he might seem arrogant at times, but I don't think he really was.

Exactly. Summed up everything I was thinking.

Sheridan = not arrogant.

 

[KoshFan]

It just now dawned on me that the scene with Sheridan and the pastor in "And the Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place" has a great deal of bearing here. Sheridan appears to be making all the decisions and taking all the risks -- but not because he's arrogant, but because he simply can't bear to put anyone else under pressure. Of course he's wrong -- he can't bear that burden alone -- but it's understandable.

 

[Tarondor]

There will always be people who distrust greatness. They do not believe in heroes and are always looking for feet of clay. There can be no doubt that we all (including the fictional Sheridan) have feet of clay, but in comparison to the greatness of the man, it hardly seems reasonable to identify that as a major, or even significant, portion of his character.

Sure, some great men are arrogant. But I don't see that the label fits Sheridan.

 

[rangerPHIL]

I just watched the last two eps of season 3 (I happen to have been re-watching the series with my sis and we were up to that last night), and I really don't know what else Sheridan was supposed to have done. Remember that this all happened right after Sheridan and Delenn led a successful victory against the Shadows by using telepaths and bringing many races together. The Shadows knew it was Sheridan who could destroy their plans. They all knew the Shadows would be after them. In other words- they were fucked. And without Babylon 5 and the delicate alliance, there would be no hope. So he acted to save them.

His only "arrogance" was in hoping to change some of the stuff he saw in his leap forward. He over-reasoned that aspect of it (the claim that not going might have actually caused it, etc), but I think he did that only after he decided to take the opportunity to strike at the heart of the Shadows.

It was after all only Payback for what the Shadows had done to Anna.

Anna tipped the scales. If she had indeed come back as she left then Sheridan would never have gone to Z'ha'dum alone.

He decided it was time for someone to deal out some retribution and where better than their homeworld.

As it happens if he had not gone to z'ha'dum then B5 would have been obliterated, but the Vorlons may not have gone on a universal rampage.

So did sheridan make the right decision?

 

[deaded]

I must have watched the whole series 10 times by now and I still have a hard time with Sheridan using the modified telepaths as weapons. That's just not something a person does! Use living people as weapons?!?!? I'm sorry but that's a war-crime right there; win or lose.

But Sheridan had already changed by then. His boyish charm of the first season was long gone.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

That sentiment certainly doesn't agree with your opinions in the Byron thread. Are you really two people, posting under the same name?

 

[Holland]

i really liked Sheridan the moment heappeared in the show, but by season 4 i was cheering on Garibaldi, Sheridan was out of control, he no more so than the way he used Lyta. She should have kicked his ass! god knows she had the power, but then it's TV!

 

[KoshFan]

She had the power... but not over Sheridan. Telepaths can't touch him now.

Yeah, Sheridan swerved a bit. But Delenn still felt he was okay (and she wasn't above setting him straight when she had to) so I'll trust her judgement.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

I must have watched the whole series 10 times by now and I still have a hard time with Sheridan using the modified telepaths as weapons. That's just not something a person does! Use living people as weapons?!?!? I'm sorry but that's a war-crime right there; win or lose.

Using people as weapons is a standard part of an officer’s job. The people are normally called soldiers and seamen but they are still used as attack weapons.

 

[sleepy_shadow]

Soldiers bear arms either voluntarily, or because they are threatened with retribution from state.

A state which coerces people to fight, or an officer who represents such state... are nothing else but criminals, and deserve stopping by any means suitable (weapons being the last).

In coercing people to fight, Sheridan committed a crime. Perfectly human... but impossible to excuse. He made the mistake -- but apparently only once.

---------

The Shadow-modified telepaths... were *not* voluntarily bearing arms.

Their minds had been modified against their will. Their self-control was compromized, and freedom of choice obstructed. They were casualties, of closest resemblance to a civilian who was wounded, and has become insane.

Yet they were still sentient, as demonstrated by their actions when Lyta temporarily neutralized the effect of their implants. As such, they had all the rights of a sick and wounded civilian.

 

[2aMageing]

I must have watched the whole series 10 times by now and I still have a hard time with Sheridan using the modified telepaths as weapons. That's just not something a person does! Use living people as weapons?!?!? I'm sorry but that's a war-crime right there; win or lose.

But Sheridan had already changed by then. His boyish charm of the first season was long gone.

It seems pretty clear that after Sheridan "fell" at Zha Ha Dum, included in Lorien's process of letting go of other's expectations and living true to yourself, included in that process was the birth (rebirth?) of a new Sheridan, very different from the one who arrived in season 2, even very different from the one who chose to fly to Zha Ha Dum.

Prior to his death Sheridan seemed to embody the caring, consciencious leader who was, to quote Garibaldi describing Londo, holding on to the tale of a tiger (if for no other reason than to avoid getting eaten), in reference to being thrust into command of all the nonsense of big ol B5, thrust into the middle of a war of ancients, he pretty much was just doing what he could to keep things together, to give everyone a chance to survive. And no so much taking charge and initiating events, so much as reacting to them or acting so as to avoid them.


After he was reborn and returned from Zha Ha Dum he was, IMHO, not nearly the same person, and not because he had died and come back arrogant for having survived, and not because he was hardened by losing some of himself upon dying,

but rather because he was a far more streamlined personality now, having discarded all the "extra" stuff humans carry around to get in the way of what would otherwise be simple choices, he was not more arrogant, and not harder, just clearer in his mind and free of the fears and weights that an supposed untimely death can saddle us with.

I would say he was merely more focused, more clear headed and directed of will, more prepared to do the hard things

(like sending 10s of unconsenting telepaths in to save hundreds on both sides (most arrogant people are not as concerned with loses on the "other" side of a battle)

as decisively as most people would be in doing the easy things in life.


Just a shot in the dark, IMHO.