The Gathering - Vorlon Question

[Telepath]

I just watched the special edition of The Gathering again. I think it's a neat pilot, but something keeps bugging me: Why do the Vorlons want to blow B5 out of the sky (or transfer Sinclair to their homeworld in the first place)? Seems nonsensical, given the awakening of the Shadows and Sinclair's eventual transformation. Could anyone please explain that to me??

 

[KoshFan]

The raindrops do not fall upward. (Ask a Vorlon question, get a Vorlon answer.)



Remember how the Vorlons went nuts after Kosh died and Sheridan opened up the "unexpected door" by attacking Z'ha'dum? It's been broadly hinted by JMS that Kosh was a stabilizing influence, keeping them under control. Also remember that no Vorlon has died in a very long time. Combine the loss of their sanity check with attempted murder, and they go a little nuts.

It bothered me at the time too, until I remembered that our perception of the Vorlons as wise, albiet reserved and maddenly cryptic, comes from Kosh alone. The others are a little psychotic. At least, that's how I've always read it.

 

[hypatia]

Yes, telepath, that's a very good question.

One theory I've heard bandied about is that not all of the Vorlons knew just what Sinclair was/had to become. I find that confusing since the Vorlons are in contact with each other's minds. Or at least I had the impression they did.

ANd even if not all the Vorlons knew, then the question qould be, why didn't Kosh's replacement pitch fits when it was suggested they interfere much with Sinclair at all.

I hope Jan or someone who has a lot more experience with various theories and information sources comes by and offers some possible explanation(s). Joe I know is very busy right now.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

A simple explanation is the Vorlons wanted an excuse to show off the military strength of their ships. They know that a war was coming.

 

[raw_bean]

I don't see the problem here. If they were just trying to blow up B5 without wanting Sinclair extradited, then that would be one thing. They wanted Sinclair alive and off the station, before they destroyed it to show their displeasure. Once they had him under control, I don't see them having any problem punishing him for his actions whilst also still keeping him around and forcing (instead of guiding, since there would be no sympathetic Kosh around any more) him into his appointed role.

 

[KoshN]

A simple explanation is the Vorlons wanted an excuse to show off the military strength of their ships. They know that a war was coming.

So they show up with a fleet, when one Vorlon Transport could have destroyed the entire place without breaking a sweat? Granted, maybe they were putting on a show for those who don't know their capabilities, and maybe they wanted to look so overwhelming that there wouldn't be any resistance, but a single Vorlon battleship would have done the trick.

 

[Telepath]

Honestly, I fear that the whole "being sent to the Vorlon homeworld" and "blowing B5 to bits" thing probably stems from studio influence. Yesterday, I read the original script for "The Gathering" (nice, except for the presentation of the Vorlons), and these threads appear nowhere. The Vorlon High Command is concerned and in contact with earth central, that's all. I think there is no in-universe explanation for the Vorlons' actions in The Gathering, it's just crap ;-)

 

[KoshN]

Honestly, I fear that the whole "being sent to the Vorlon homeworld" and "blowing B5 to bits" thing probably stems from studio influence. Yesterday, I read the original script for "The Gathering" (nice, except for the presentation of the Vorlons), and these threads appear nowhere. The Vorlon High Command is concerned and in contact with earth central, that's all. I think there is no in-universe explanation for the Vorlons' actions in The Gathering, it's just crap ;-)

Hmm, that was back when the studio might have interfered. I never gave that a thought because the studio interfered so little with B5. Good one.

 

[KoshFan]

I just watched the special edition of The Gathering again. I think it's a neat pilot, but something keeps bugging me: Why do the Vorlons want to blow B5 out of the sky (or transfer Sinclair to their homeworld in the first place)? Seems nonsensical, given the awakening of the Shadows and Sinclair's eventual transformation. Could anyone please explain that to me??

Okay, regarding the Sinclair-->Valen transformation, here's JMS on the subject, taken from the Lurker's Guide of course...

If Kosh recognized Sinclair as Valen, why were the Vorlons so anxious to extradite Sinclair in "The Gathering?"
He could only recognize him once he actually saw him, and that didn't happen until he arrived at B5, after which he wasn't in any condition to talk to anyone until after things were over.

But surely they must have known he was B5's first commander?
Bear in mind that there have been lots of folks named Sinclair in the last 900 years; that we don't know how much Valen told anyone about his prior life; that the Minbari had had little to no direct contact with the Vorlons in well over a hundred years and likely would not have told them what they found at the Battle of the Line until such time as personal contact had been made again, which only happened at Kosh's arrival...and there wasn't exactly time to make a report after he rolled into B5 for the first time.

So in that respect, the Vorlons were perfectly willing to take out Sinclair by hook or by crook because they didn't know his destiny.


As for their motivation, I'll repeat what I said before. The Vorlons are very long-lived, and none of them has died in centuries, so when one of them is almost murdered, they kinda fly off the handle. Here's JMS again:

About Kosh and Ulkesh, the other Vorlon
No, I wouldn't call them friends. They had a certain respect for one another, but Ulkesh always thought Kosh was soft, and Kosh always worried that Ulkesh was dangerous. In their own ways, both were right.

[...]

Kosh and Ulkesh were contemporaries, though Ulkesh was the more military of the two, very isolationist, while Kosh was the curious one, interested in the younger races, and more willing to extend himself (with sometimes unfortunate results). Kosh always worried what Ulkesh would do without his moderating presence...and ultimately had to be the one to take him down to allow the younger races to step forward.

Incidentally, here's something JMS said about "The Gathering" that I unearthed while rifling through the Lurker's Guide for the quotes I wanted:

It was stated in the pilot that Kosh's ship took roughly 4 days to travel via hyperspace to B5. That's from Vorlon space; we don't know where the fleet was when it entered jump. Because such ships can make their own jump points, it could've been a lot closer to B5 space when it went in. (And was.)

In other words, the Vorlon fleet that came pounding through in "The Gathering" was part of their emergency force hidden in hyperspace that Ivanova and Marcus discover in "The Summoning," a good three years later... minus the planet killer, of course. Or so I interpret it.

Also, I discovered this from JMS:

When you see a LOT of vorlons together, that's when it's time to run like hell.

 

[Telepath]

that the Minbari had had little to no direct contact with the Vorlons in well over a hundred years and likely would not have told them what they found at the Battle of the Line until such time as personal contact had been made again, which only happened at Kosh's arrival...

Well, that makes "In The Beginning" break continuity even more than I had previously felt.

And a simple message from Delenn (Grey Council) to the Vorlons concerning the matter would have sufficed. I still don't like it Ah well, it's an imperfect universe

 

[Galahad]

Well, that makes "In The Beginning" break continuity even more than I had previously felt.

Not necessarily, the Vorlons have only just appeared on the scene at this point... and we have no reason to believe the Minbari are in touch with their Government at this time. Prior to Delenn, only Lennon and Dukhat knew what was in his sanctuary. I'd be willing to bet that with the time fast coming when the Shadows would surface once more, Kosh had urged the Vorlons to get in touch with the younger races starting with their old allies the Minbari. The vorlons - preferring to remain aloof, probably humoured Kosh on the condition that he took Ulkesh along with him to keep an eye on him. I would argue that at the time of ItB, Kosh and Ulkesh are the only vorlons in direct communication with the Minbari... and pretty much exclusively with Dukhat.

And a simple message from Delenn (Grey Council) to the Vorlons concerning the matter would have sufficed. I still don't like it Ah well, it's an imperfect universe

If I remember rightly, the only times the Minbari Government hear from the Vorlon Government themselves directly, is when they have something to say. Any time the younger races want to address the vorlons it is done via Kosh... who at this point is incapacitated, or through Ulkesh... who is largely uncooperative.

 

[crazyhorse]

Let's face it,the Vorlons were pretty stupid despite their fancy technology.

 

[Triple F]

The B5 story developed as time progressed. While jms clearly had the broad strokes of the story worked out, he didn’t have the details at the time of the pilot. There was (of course) other factors that also meant the story would change as the show developed. You just need to look at the pilot and the first season to see that. And no, it can’t all be explained as simple misdirection on the part of jms to keep the viewer ‘confused’ about the wider story which was later revealed.

Another example of this from the pilot was when G’Kar managed to blackmail Londo into voting against the captain. He managed this by threatening to reveal that his family was responsible for atrocities during the occupation of Narn – which would have brough great discrace to his house. This was a complete 180 from the way the Centauri were depicted later in the series.

But it was no biggy, still a good story in the end.

 

[vacantlook]

Just for the heck of it, for this thread, I thought I'd post a picture of early production art for the Vorlons.

Seeing those non-glowing, reptilian hands makes me wonder what was originally up with the Vorlons, especially given the description of Vorlons that accompanied that picture in the early production "brochure":

The secretive Vorlons are a group not to be trusted. A massive power struggle is going on among their upper echelons where advancement is only accomplished by assassination. They seek to eliminate the Earth Alliance and solidify themselves as heads of the Empire.

 

[puzzle]

So they show up with a fleet, when one Vorlon Transport could have destroyed the entire place without breaking a sweat?

Well, nobody except old enemies (and perhaps old allies, but Humans were neither) really knew the capability of their ships, or their available numbers.

Since the purpose of showing up was in equal part communicating a credible threat, unless they wanted to destroy something as a show of force, they pretty much had to send many ships.

To get the point across.

I guess they figured that firing shots would be a bad idea. By surprising people, it might provoke non-enemies to do something stupid, and could supply updated weapons figures to true enemies, who needn't learn them.

 

[KoshN]

Well, nobody except old enemies (and perhaps old allies, but Humans were neither) really knew the capability of their ships, or their available numbers.

Since the purpose of showing up was in equal part communicating a credible threat, unless they wanted to destroy something as a show of force, they pretty much had to send many ships.

To get the point across.

I guess they figured that firing shots would be a bad idea. By surprising people, it might provoke non-enemies to do something stupid, and could supply updated weapons figures to true enemies, who needn't learn them.

Yeah, that's true, plus showing up with a fleet like they did, might cause some to underestimate the capability of their ships in the future (which is like having another weapon in your bag). The thing is, I'm viewing their show of force in "The Gathering" from the perspective of someone who's seen what the Vorlons did before they went off with Lorien and the other first one races at the end of "Into the Fire", not someone on B5 in "The Gathering".

 

[grumbler]

Well, nobody except old enemies (and perhaps old allies, but Humans were neither) really knew the capability of their ships, or their available numbers.

Since the purpose of showing up was in equal part communicating a credible threat, unless they wanted to destroy something as a show of force, they pretty much had to send many ships.

To get the point across.

That is the way I see it. As a wise one once said, "if you are making a point, why not make it so no one can misunderstand it? Send them all."

The idea that the Vorlons were "using" the Narn for their own purposes is far more credible than the reverse. Remember how G'Kar has all that info from the Vorlons on their intentions and desires? That isn't credible unless the Vorlons want an excuse to arrive in overwhelming force, to give their ambassador some street cred. The whole "assassination" thing was a Vorlon plot, I think, and they had no idea they were involving the Sinclair.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

{snip}The whole "assassination" thing was a Vorlon plot, I think, and they had no idea they were involving the Sinclair.

Possibly but the opposite also works. The Vorlons were testing to see how good their new weapon - Babylon 5 - and the Sinclair were.

 

[hypatia]

Testing, how? But a show of force? Or do you mean they would have started to fire?

I thought the Vorlons were quite wary of interfering with "The One". For good reason: who knows what might shift just the right thing in just the right way could shift him off of his path?

I just don't see them starting to fire on the station, to "test it and Sinclair".

 

[KoshFan]

What, did my posts suddenly turn invisible or something?

The Vorlons didn't know about Sinclair! The Great Maker said so! End of story! If it's illogical, take it up with him.