The merits of Byron

[A_M_Swallow]

And, that is actually my biggest complaint about Sheridan's behavior in all this. He should never have agreed to return the teeps. This was just as bad as the US Supreme Court's Dred Scott decision, allowing for the return of escaped slaves, back to slavery.

Sheridan could not keep the sleeping telepaths - that would have made them his slaves. He could not just let them go because they were a danger to both themselves and everyone around them. No aliens or human colony would want them (for an honest purpose). That just leaves returning them to Psi Corps.

What Sheridan should have done is held an investigation to find out who sold the telepaths to the Shadows. Basically using Bester and the power of Earth Force to reform Psi Corps. Although he may not have been able to trust Bester.

 

[sleepy_shadow]

Re: Cutting Byron from season 5

But what made him a "genius" in his own mind at least was that he had a plan to overcome the influence of the Corps.

A plan which could not succeed. When fighting a centralized institution of superior power, it makes no sense to centralize your supporters -- make them one big target before they can fight. Far better to hide, undermine and bide your time.

By allowing his followers to gather on Babylon 5, Byron made them a target. By hoping for conflict avoidance to secure protection, he gave up good opportunities to disperse and disappear.

Eventually, he undermined the very strategy he hoped to secure protection, by relying on blackmail.

But how many of the indoctrinated broke through their indoctrination? Not many, it seems.

Many enough to weaken the Corps. How many refused to develop piloting skills? How many accidentally hurt themselves, or damaged Corps property during training? How many played stupid, not appearing to learn which way to hold a gun? How many openly refused from becoming anything more than a commercial teep?

He could have dragged out his training... wasted the resources the Corps spent on training him... fallen ill or got slightly hurt... accidentally bumped into a fellow pilot, leaving both alive but wrecking two Black Omega fighters.

Indoctrination and enlistment into a totalitarian system is gradual. He could have resisted before he was forged into a weapon.

Eventually, even after it all... he could have, instead of firing at the civilian transport... ordered the Starfury to apply full burn. Not everyone in the squadron could have pursued him -- some were needed to destroy the civilian ship. He could have escaped, or at least killed a Psi-Cop while trying.

Naturally until that point, he never appeared to realize how the Corps really operated. I hold this blindness against him, like I hold their respective mistakes against other characters -- Londo, G'Kar, Delenn, Kosh, Sheridan and perhaps even Sinclair (although the latter does not appear to have made mistakes of comparable caliber).

Did the show say he had not asked what they wanted?

One is never considered a representative of wider groups... before one provides proof. If I claim to represent your opinion, I must produce a record of you authorizing me to represent you.

And remember that this was just a small portion of the people he was working for and with.

I have the opposite impression. Those on B5 were the majority of "his people". Others assembled around different, more reasonable strategies, and chose different leaders.

He and his followers claimed that he worked for all the Teeps who had escaped the Corps, and we know from previous episodes that these were not small numbers

The emphasis should be placed on claimed.

exactly how many people does it take to "deserve presents of planetary dimension?" Remember how few the colonists were in "Patterns of the Soul"?

They already had the planet -- and were entitled to its possession via their heritage. They only needed defense, which is easier to provide than a planet.

Yet no one said they had to leave the planet because their "narrow group had no merit to deserve presents of planetary dimension."

You are missing the point. The planet was theirs. The only present was defense.

This is based on what? It is a non-argument.

This is based on never hearing of their merits.

He was desperate, because he could see that time was running out (the deal with Bester expired after 60 days)

He was a fool to enter the whole situation, or not advise his people to quietly slip away from Babylon 5.

 

[grumbler]

Re: Cutting Byron from season 5

1. Byron was a pacifist.

True, which would make the argument that Byron hadn't personally helped a supportable one. However, that says nothing about anyone in his "group" which is why I am saying that it is a non-argument to state that no one in Byron's "group" ever helped fight the Shadows. The teeps who were sent to league and Narn ships were ALL escaped telepaths, as far as I could see.

2. His attack was triggered by reading Lyta's mind. She told him that the Vorlons made telepaths and about telepaths fighting in the Shadow War. If one of Byron's people had taken part Byron would have already known this.

None of the other teeps knew that the Vorlons had bred the telepaths, because none of them had been to the Vorlon homeworld (which is where Lyta found it out). Byron's anger was based on the fact that he saw the Teeps as being bred for a project and then discarded when their usefulness was up, not based on the fact that the teeps had helped the Army of Light (which he almost certainly knew already).

We don't know whether any of the specific teeps with Byron were in the war, but I wouldn't be surprised to find that some of them were given that the Underground RR was reactivated to bring runaway teeps to help the AoL.

 

[grumbler]

Re: Cutting Byron from season 5

A plan which could not succeed. When fighting a centralized institution of superior power, it makes no sense to centralize your supporters -- make them one big target before they can fight. Far better to hide, undermine and bide your time.

Tell that to the Birmingham civil rights demonstrators. You cannot successfully publicize a cause unless you can demonstrate that it is a serious problem to a large number of people, and that involves the risk of having "the dogs" set on you. Remember that Byron's initial plan was NOT to fight, but to induce guilt and thus gain cooperation.

By allowing his followers to gather on Babylon 5, Byron made them a target. By hoping for conflict avoidance to secure protection, he gave up good opportunities to disperse and disappear.

But his whole point was that the renegade teeps were tired of running and hiding, and that they couldn't "disappear" with the corps hunting them down.

Eventually, he undermined the very strategy he hoped to secure protection, by relying on blackmail.

Eventually, he abandoned his first strategy, and then his second, and adopted a confrontational third.

Many enough to weaken the Corps. How many refused to develop piloting skills? How many accidentally hurt themselves, or damaged Corps property during training? How many played stupid, not appearing to learn which way to hold a gun? How many openly refused from becoming anything more than a commercial teep?

Dunno. Nor do you. But how many rogue psycops were there? I think Bester notes that there was only ever one.

He could have dragged out his training... wasted the resources the Corps spent on training him... fallen ill or got slightly hurt... accidentally bumped into a fellow pilot, leaving both alive but wrecking two Black Omega fighters.

I think if you watch the show you will see that he was an eager follower of Bester until he actually "saw the elephant" so none of these are viable.

Indoctrination and enlistment into a totalitarian system is gradual. He could have resisted before he was forged into a weapon.

But he WANTED to be forged into a weapon! In his insular little PsiCorps world that was the ambition of all the little boys and girls.

Eventually, even after it all... he could have, instead of firing at the civilian transport... ordered the Starfury to apply full burn. Not everyone in the squadron could have pursued him -- some were needed to destroy the civilian ship. He could have escaped, or at least killed a Psi-Cop while trying.

Sure, and Sheridan could have killed Clarke back in 2255, but that's not what the story was about. Rewriting JMS isn't a great idea.

Naturally until that point, he never appeared to realize how the Corps really operated. I hold this blindness against him, like I hold their respective mistakes against other characters -- Londo, G'Kar, Delenn, Kosh, Sheridan and perhaps even Sinclair (although the latter does not appear to have made mistakes of comparable caliber).

Be my guest. The problem is that you seem to forgive the others when they awaken to their mistakes, but not Byron. He is an asshole to you for being in the corps and an asshole for opposing it.

I have the opposite impression. Those on B5 were the majority of "his people". Others assembled around different, more reasonable strategies, and chose different leaders.

Well, we have different impressions, then. And all of the other groups must also have had leaders named Byron because all the other groups got into the "Remember Byron" gig after each of their own Byrons was killed.

They already had the planet -- and were entitled to its possession via their heritage. They only needed defense, which is easier to provide than a planet.

So had Byron just squatted somewhere you would have been okay with him? That taking the planet is okay but asking for it is unforgivable and stupid?

You are missing the point. The planet was theirs. The only present was defense.

I don't think I am the one missing the point. They had been only the planet a couple of weeks, hadn't asked for permission, just settled, and yet you are according them possession and protection which you deny Byron's much larger and at least as deserving group because Byron's group asked for permission?

He was a fool to enter the whole situation, or not advise his people to quietly slip away from Babylon 5.

And MLK was a fool for entering HIS whole situation and not advising HIS people to slip quietly away from Birmingham.

 

[Nancy]

Re: Cutting Byron from season 5

There are many things that annoyed me about Byron (not the least being the singing *shudders*), but the most important is the fact that he believed in the superiority of telepaths over "mundanes". I don't trust anyone who holds a belief of their own race/religion/etc superiority. We know through history that this always ends badly.

 

[sleepy_shadow]

Re: Cutting Byron from season 5

First, I must correct one mistake. Now that you mentioned the background... I realize that my counter-argument about "Patterns of the Soul" was truly invalid.

I have never watched "Patterns of the Soul" -- was confusing it with another episode.

That said... if one found an habitable yet uninhabited planet without claimant, and settled down there as refugee... there would be strong reason for letting the person/group keep the planet.

Oppositely, when someone demands a planet, backing the demand with threats... chances are the request is denied. Not only because the demand was impossible to meet, but because yielding to threats is unproductive.

But his whole point was that the renegade teeps were tired of running and hiding, and that they couldn't "disappear" with the corps hunting them down.

Hunting them down from a hundred places would have consumed *at least* 100 times greater resources than hunting them down from one place.

Likewise, nobody was asking them to martyr themselves, merely to publicise an injustice which most people knew about (but haven't found efficient ways to stop).

Far better publicity is gained by successful resistance than failiure to resist. In fact I suspect... had their quest been to disappear and continue resisting... they might have easier found support, either in money, arms, false documents or other useful things.

But how many rogue psycops were there? I think Bester notes that there was only ever one.

Not the best question. Becoming a Psi-Cop meant becoming an accomplice in crime, with virtually zero chance of forgiveness from rogue telepaths. Therefore, a Psi-Cop had virtualy zero chance of joining them, and using their help to disappear.

Those who developed a tiny bit of sense never became Psi-Cops. You should ask: "how many P10 to P12 telepaths never became PsiCops"?

But he WANTED to be forged into a weapon! In his insular little PsiCorps world that was the ambition of all the little boys and girls.

Being brainwashed can be only partially forgiven. His life in the Corps was not life in total isolation -- but with certain opportunities of doubting and seeking objective information.

Be my guest. The problem is that you seem to forgive the others when they awaken to their mistakes, but not Byron.

Actually, I do not.

Although I have most understanding... for characters who never made a serious mistake they could have noticed and avoided... or whose mistakes were made under attack, and realized very soon afterwards.

Byron never fully awakened. He went from doing the obviouly wrong things... to doing obviously irresponsible and unproductive things.

Had he finally come to his senses... I might view him in more favourable terms. However, as you said... that is not how the story went.

 

[grumbler]

Re: Cutting Byron from season 5

There are many things that annoyed me about Byron (not the least being the singing *shudders*), but the most important is the fact that he believed in the superiority of telepaths over "mundanes". I don't trust anyone who holds a belief of their own race/religion/etc superiority. We know through history that this always ends badly.

Agree completely. I don't think he was MEANT to be a likable charactor. His story was MEANT to be "tragic" from the beginning, and much of the tragedy was to be laid at the door of his own failings. The "likeable" telepaths get killed because he vastly overestimates the degree of control he has over the hotheads in his midst.

However, I don't think charactorizing him as transparently "stupid" does either the story or the writer sufficient credit.

Byron's hubris brings him down not once, but twice. He is an interesting charactor in that regard - one of the few JMS fanatics who doesn't learn from his experiences - he just changes his methods from a fanatical killer to a fanatical peacenik.

(I will let the above post answer you as well, SS. I think we are in agreement that Byron was flawed, but differ in that you think he was stupid and I think he was morally flawed but intelligent).

 

[Nancy]

Re: Cutting Byron from season 5

I agree with grumbler, Byron was not stupid. I think he was so focused and obsessed about freeing his telepaths that it blinded him to everything else.

 

[grumbler]

Re: Cutting Byron from season 5

I was thinking about why I don't like the episodes with Byron in them very much, and I decided that it was because the events are so predictable. The only thing I can think of that Byron did unexpectedly was give Bo a peek inside the mindset of the Starfury pilots.

 

[RW7427]

I didn't think Byron had any merits.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Wow, wasn't that spectacularly insightful and clever.

 

[Alluveal]

Ya know, after watching Season 5 again, it's not Byron who bothers me: it's all the other telepaths. Byron is the only one in the lot who seemed to have a brain and could sit and rationalize. The rest were just a bunch of loose cannons who ran around making his life a living hell. I imagine until Lyta came along, he was surrounded by a bunch of chachi's who stood around looking like dopes the whole time. They were fraggin' creepy. I didn't like a darn one of them, including that mute who showed Captain Lochley pictures of flowers. I think they did fine with Byron, but surrounded him with a bunch of weird, lurching weirdos whose only jobs were to make me balk every time I saw one of 'em. I think I've met eggplants with more personality and charisma.

Forget Bester, just send Byron's gang of eerie goons into a room to act all eerie and you'd be clawing your way out in no time.

 

[grumbler]

Yep, they were not well-drawn charactors, by and large. The whole plot line seemed hasty and contrived, and the charactorizations matched the rest of the plot line. I blame the death and sudden resurrection of Season 5: JMS simply didn't have the time to think it all through and make the charactors believable. Lockley's charactor suffered from the same syndrome in those early episodes.

"Babylon 5! We're sorry. We thought you were dead."
"I was. I'm better now."

 

[hypatia]

That's a very good point. Is it really Byron people hate or the group he was leading? I never thought of that.

And IIRC, JMS did say his notes for S5 were thrown out when he was staying in a hotel or something?

 

[GKarsEye]

I started re-watching season 5 last night and went through the first disc.

I forgot how much of an asshole Byron is. Not necessarily for his cause or whatever, and I still think the story itself is great, but just his personality. His reciting Shakespeare out of context, like those jackasses in high school who thought they were so smart. His smarmy "sit down!" lecture to Lyta. And yes, his perfectly coiffed hair. I mean, I just wanna punch him so bad.

My 18 yr old non-sci-fi liking sister sometimes watches it or catches bits here and there, and she's having the typical female reactions: loved Marcus, hates Byron. When I told her that Ivanova (who she also liked a lot) would have hooked up with Byron as a replacement for Marcus, she nearly hurled.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

And IIRC, JMS did say his notes for S5 were thrown out when he was staying in a hotel or something?

Yes when they changed his room.

 

[Nancy]

Another thing I don't like about Byron, he's a hipocrite. He's always complaining about how prejudiced the normals are towards the teeps (which is true), but he does the same thing. He hates normals just as much. Granted, his hate is justified, but he's lowering himself to the same level as the normals with his hate. I hope I'm somewhat making sense here.

Oh, and a side note, I liked Lockley, I think she did a great job. She wasn't trying to replace Ivanova, but she was her own person. I think some people's dislike of her is simply because she wasn't Ivanova.

 

[Jan]

Oh, and a side note, I liked Lockley, I think she did a great job. She wasn't trying to replace Ivanova, but she was her own person. I think some people's dislike of her is simply because she wasn't Ivanova.

I liked Lochley a lot too. And, having met her at a convention, she's among my favorites of the B5 cast I've met.

Jan

 

[Alluveal]

I like Lochley as well. She really grew on me. The actress (from the commentary and other sources) seems like a real angel too.

 

[GKarsEye]

More importantly- does she look that hot in real life?