Triluminary

[KoshFan]

Whereas Kosh was worried about what Ulkesh might get up to. With reason, as it turned out.

I'd also like JMS to tell us more about the Vorlons in general -- but I'm not persuaded that he really ought to. For me, their fascination is rooted in their mystery. The Valen story would keep me happy, though.

 

[GKarsEye]

I absolutely agree with you KF, and you're making my point that Kosh and Ulkesh had very different personalities. Therefore, when Sinclair got there as Valen he would have recognised which was which.

 

[KoshFan]

Ah. I see your point; Valen would have been able to pick Kosh out of a Vorlon lineup, in other words. I expect that given some time together, that would be true; but I'm not persuaded that Valen would have been able to spot Kosh instantly, on the basis of their first conversation. After all, Kosh's encounter suit looked different then; what else changed before we really came to "know" Kosh?

 

[fisheggs]

I dunno, I don't buy that Delenn was 100% human. Virtually human, enough to have a child with Sheridan? Yes, I buy that. She still had some Minbari features on her face (broader brow and no eyebrows.)

There are 100% humans living on this planet right now who have odd bone structure and no eyebrows. Delenn's appearance was not nearly as far from the median Human as any number of people I encountered on my daliy walk between Grand Central Station and my office in Manhattan, trust me. But she had to have been genetically 100% Human to have born a child with Sheridan and have that child be fertile - otherwise at the very least David would have been a Mule. That's not my theory, those are the laws of genetics as they apply (as per JMS) to the B5 universe.

Regards,

Joe

You HAD to mention the Triluminary's!! (tri... think 3 has something to do with it? )


Joe we can NOW splice a fly's gene onto corn and tobacco, and have the offspring be genetically compatible with wild vareties. The Vorlon created the TP gene , inserted it into a wide vareity of the human population, and had it breed true in a small but significiant portion of the population, as evidenced by the Psi Corp ads.


Is there any other history of the Great Machine besides the broadcast material? The Aliens who laid claim to Epsilon 3 didn't seem to have the smarts to have built the Great Machine. I still think the Vorlon are involved. Especially if Kosh and/or Ulkesh were the Vorlon astride Valen. They would know and remember Valen and most likely know who he was and his future history, as told to them to authenitcate his validity, gosh , maybe Sinclair was "carrying" a piece of Kosh.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

Two other buildings in our five building complex have had to be abandoned because they were structurally unsound and one contains all our computer and network equipment - too expensive to move - but no one is allowed to actually work in it.

Sounds like any upgrades need to go into a new computer room. Any cheap industrial lots around?

 

[puzzle]

Perhaps Delenn should have grown gills, but the Vorlon who wrote the specs took it for granted, and the Shadow who won the contract knew nothing since it wasn't spelled out.

Consequently, when Delenn eventually didn't grow gills, the best everyone could do was pretend she wasn't meant to. "Hey, humanoids might actually consider this a feature! But next time, we write the code in-house to avoid such shame."

Gills are nothing but fancy arrangements of cartilage, tissue and blood vessel. Once you have the components, nothing hard. Just get their deployment path clear of seven million possible side effects.

Now photosynthesis and green leaves, that would have been stretching it...

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Some crosses in the cat family are sometimes fertile, like ligers, and tigrons.

That's because ligers, tigrons, lions and tigers are all members of the same species - just different breeds. They are, for all practical purposes, identical - and that's my point. A tigron doesn't have just a little dog DNA.

Actually, lions and tigers aren't the same species. They are the same genus. Tigers are panthera tigris, and lions are panthera leo. Most tigrons and ligers are sterile, AFAIK.

Right now, serious consideration is being given to placing humans and chimps in the same genus, because we are so similar genetically.

My only point is that the Triluminary did some serious genetic re-engineering on Deleen, but we can't be confident that she has "100% human DNA," as you claimed, based upon the fact that she can reproduce with a human. We could probably engineer a fertile genetic cross between a dog and a cat, if we had any need to do so.

 

[RW7427]

Actually, lions and tigers aren't the same species. They are the same genus. Tigers are panthera tigris, and lions are panthera leo. Most tigrons and ligers are sterile, AFAIK.

And you know this because you're a jaguar?

 

[hypatia]

Hmm. One thought that comes to mind in this discussion is: are people kind of assuming there is no physical difference between evolution and this triluminary-forced change?

Maybe Delen's more Minbari features remained simply because they would be difficult to remove? (Most notably, obviously, the head-bone or whatever it's called.)

As far as the breeding conversation goes: I think JMS is wise in giving himself some wiggle-room on this one. David was not conceived naturally, was he? So just how much Delen was human and just how much that time's technology could assist a union leaves some wiggle room.

Which is important when dealing with picky science-fiction fans.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Actually, lions and tigers aren't the same species. They are the same genus. Tigers are panthera tigris, and lions are panthera leo. Most tigrons and ligers are sterile, AFAIK.

And you know this because you're a jaguar?

as a panthera onca, the largest and most powerful of the felidae that live in the Americas, I don't bother remembering such trivialities, so I asked my buddy, felis concolor, AKA cougar, panther, puma, mountain lion, catamount, etc. (gee, that guy has a lot of aliases,) an he gave me the low-down.

Actually, I had two years of bio in HS, and two semesters of zoology in college. And, I like cats. I remember my KPCOFGS. Well, sometimes.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

David was not conceived naturally, was he?

???? Of course he was. He conceived through ordinary sexual intercourse, no artificial means, no technology applied. Whatever made you think otherwise? That's been my point. Because he was conceived naturally all this business aobut engineering matches is entirely beside the point. And Delenn for all practical purposes is, despite her appearance, Human. I'm not going to quibble about tiny and quite meaningless fragments of "Minbariness" that seem to cling to her, that isn't the argument I'm trying to counter. Rather I reject the notion the Delenn is some kind of 50/50 Human/Minbari Hybrid, or in some other essential way still partially Minbair. David's existence and fate show otherwise because the difference cannot have been much at all for him to be born and to produce fertile offspring.

Regards,

Joe

 

[hypatia]

Nothing made me think so other than how long it has been since I've seen the episode, and speculation I've read, I suppose.

Many apologizings.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Actually, lions and tigers aren't the same species. They are the same genus. Tigers are panthera tigris, and lions are panthera leo. Most tigrons and ligers are sterile, AFAIK.

Oh, then I was right in the first place. Unlike David Sheridan, cross-species mixes such as tigrons and ligers aren't fertile - and therefore aren't members of the same species. (I only assumed that they were becasue they were fertile.) So since David was fertile and so were his off-spring, his parents must have been members of the same species. And the fact that David is, in appearance, entirely Human, this suggests that Delenn's residual Minbari features are unique to her, and not a part of the basic genetic code passed to her off-spring, much as I might develop a bone deformity as a result of disease that would not be passed on to my children, because it is neither caused by nor recorded in my DNA.

Regards,

Joe

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Actually, lions and tigers aren't the same species. They are the same genus. Tigers are panthera tigris, and lions are panthera leo. Most tigrons and ligers are sterile, AFAIK.

Oh, then I was right in the first place. Unlike David Sheridan, cross-species mixes such as tigrons and ligers aren't fertile - and therefore aren't members of the same species.

Regards,

Joe

Joe, you seem to have missed "most." Also, in my original post about this, I said are sometimes fertile. So, you are wrong. There ARE exceptions to the rule. Crossing species doesn't always result in infertile offspring. Fertility is just much less uncommon in ligers and tigrons than in mules. In very rare instances, there are even fertile mules. I'd really like to know, if the Russians really made a humanzee, was it fertile?

I agree that Delenn almost certainly wasn't what we would normally call a hybrid. And, to have a natural child, with a human, she would have to have been substantially human, with substantially human DNA. But, not necessarilly 100% human DNA. It's a minor nit pick, really. And, about a totally fictitious, hypothetical situation. But, that's what we do around here, isn't it.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

It's a minor nit pick, really. And, about a totally fictitious, hypothetical situation.

What's your point?

 

[Jade Jaguar]

It's a minor nit pick, really. And, about a totally fictitious, hypothetical situation.

What's your point?

Well, in the cosmic sense, I don't believe in absolutes... nothing is 100%. Hmm... maybe I belive in Xeno's paradox afterall...

 

[Bester]

I remember reading speculation somewhere that the Triluminaries actually originated from Sinclair's comlink (which he would have taken back with him in time). As is common knowledge in the B5 universe, comlinks are genetically coded to the user. This explains how the triluminaries were able to identify Sinclair's DNA.

This may have been jms's original explanation for the devices.

 

[hypatia]

Wow, that's a good theory. But I'm confused. Didn't he bring the triluminaries back with him in time? If so, uh... how could he have made them "later" after he went back in time?

You know, I'm really glad "temporal mechanics" isn't a real subject of study (yet). The language problem alone is murder!

(Which book was it that pointed that out, Hitchhiker's Guide"?

 

[Bester]

The triluminaries have existed since the time of Valen. It is speculated that they were made from SInclair's comlink, which he took back in time with him (before he became Valen).

Isn't temporal mechanics fun!!!!!

 

[GKarsEye]

So you're saying that the triluminary we see Sinclair use at the end of WWEII to turn himself into Valen was brand new and not one of the triluminaries we've seen before.