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Triluminary

I'm saying that in the original timeline Sinclair went back in time, somehow changed his comlink into the Triluminaries (probably with much help from the Vorlons), and then used one to transform himself into Valen.

The Triluminaries were then passed down through the ages, (at least) one of which ending up with Sinclair who took it with him into the past. Of course, he then didn't need to use his comlink to create the Triluminaries, because they already exist.

As with other story elements within WWE, a "temporal loop" was created in which the Triluminaries were never actually "created". But logic dictates that everything comes from somewhere.....
 
Ah, you're going by the assumption that there was an "original timeline"- I don't buy that part. Time is time.

Now, it still is possible that Zathras simply created the triluminary from Sinclair's comlink during the trip back in time on B4 and, during that trip, Sinclair transformed, thus appearing as Valen and with a brand spankin' new tri.
 
This may have been jms's original explanation for the devices.

I'm sure JMS never revealed that much. :) The speculation arose from the first time we saw a triluminary up close. At the center of the triangle is what looks like a piece broken off of a fairly crude circuit board, seemingly primative technology for the Minbari. (Hell, it looks primative for Humans in the 23rd century. I'm pretty sure the prop was actually made with something broken off a watch or calculator main board.) So the theory became that this was something Sinclair had with him that was adapted by whoever built the Triluminaries. So the sequence would go like this:

Sinclair/Valen travels back in time with the "modern" triluminaries and his link.

Valen gives the triluminaries to the Minbari. The link goes to somebody else - possibly the Vorlons.

During the interval between Valen's end and the Earth-Minbar War, the Triluminaries are constructed, possibly on Epsilon 3, possibly on the Vorlon homeworld. (They are built with pieces from Sinclair's link, according to one theory.)

At some point the triluminaries and the Chrysalis device end up on Epsilon 3. They may have been built there by whoever built the Great Machine.

In 2260 Zathras brings the Chrysalis device and the triluminaries aboard the White Star and for transport to Babylon 4, where they will all travel into the past with Sinclair.

See, isn't that simple. (Reaches for the Excedrin Migraine. :))

Joe
 
[quoet]Sinclair/Valen travels back in time with the "modern" triluminaries and his link.

[/quote]

During the interval between Valen's end and the Earth-Minbar War, the Triluminaries are constructed,

Why are they constructed if they already exist in that time period?
 
Why are they constructed if they already exist in that time period?

Well, if they weren't constructed at some point, where did they come from? :D Because Sinclair travelled back in time with the finished artifacts the linear history of the triluminaries (from creation to use by Delenn and eventual storage by the Minbari) necessarily crosses its own path when "looped" because of the time travel.

The ones Valen had went to Minbar and stayed there until Delenn used one of them. The other two are still there in 2260. So where did the three triluminaries that Zathras brought up from Epsilon 3 come from? Those were the "original" ones built during the interval which then become the ones that Valen introduces to the Minbari and which eventually find their way to Delenn and the Grey Council in the 23rd century.

Don't make me have to repeat this. :)
 
I will never fully agree that Delenn is 100% human. Even Dr. Franklin makes a comment to her (when she is fasting after Sheridan Geronimo'ed himself into the pits of Z'Ha'Dum) that Minbari may be able to fast like that, but she is (and I quote him) "part human now." Not ALL human, but PART human.

I would think that a specialist in xenobiology would be able to run scans on Delenn and say "ahh, got some Minbari and some Human going on here," even if it's something as subtle as a trace of Minbari in the DNA code.

I guess that's why it's called science fiction. We're allowed to bend the rules of biology. Though truth be told, who is to say that once the human race made contact with other species, some of those rules weren't rattled a bit anyway? Because we, in this time, have not found many exceptions to this sterility rule doesn't mean exceptions don't exist.

And the history of the triluminary. Eesh. Who frackin' knows. Even if it was made from Sinclair's comlink, how did he get it to do what it did? Sure, you can tailor it to Sinclair's DNA, but how do you get it to make a cocoon and turn you into a Minbari or Human?

I guess Sinclair realized the time loop he was caught in and thought "ok, I need to create something that can analyze my DNA so the Minbari can stop their war against Earth, and I'm not turned into Spoo. And, it has to be able to transform Delenn. And, it has to be able to transform ME when I go back in time.

He had Kosh and Ulkesh with him on B4 and he also knew of the Great Machine on Episilon 3 (though I seem to recall Episilon 3 only being there for what? 500 years, so 1,000 years in the past may be too far back.) Could be wrong on that, though.

My guess is the Vorlons had something to do with it. They were capable of creating telepaths and altering Lyta, so it's nothing new for them to horse around with genetics anyway.

Once it's created, Valen makes sure the Minbari know that it's one of their most sacred artifacts and that it will be around when he's captured in the future. Not too bad to think about, truth be told. Very circular, though.
 
Hold on a sec... are you assuming that once a triluminary is used to transform someone, it's gone?

No, not at all. (Some people do think this - they theorize that Delenn and Sinclair were transformed by different triluminaries, which then ceased to function or at least lost their ability to power the Chrysalis device. Some assume that the third had already been deactivated because it was used on Catherine Sakai.)

I'm not sure what in my post makes you think that I think that they are deactivated after use. Evidently I'm not being as clear as I think I am. (Or else you're slower on the uptake than I give you credit for. :devil:) Can you point to a place in my narrative where I seem to be losing the thread or being obscure?

Thanks,

Joe
 
Can you point to a place in my narrative where I seem to be losing the thread or being obscure?

Joe...you're talking about time travel and triluminaries that skip around from B4 to Epsilon 3 to Minbar to Babylon 5 (not necessarily in that order, of course)... What part can be clear?!? :confused:

BTW, did I miss something (possi-probably) about thoughts on why there are/were/will be three of them?

Jan
 
I'm not sure what in my post makes you think that I think that they are deactivated after use. Evidently I'm not being as clear as I think I am. (Or else you're slower on the uptake than I give you credit for. ) Can you point to a place in my narrative where I seem to be losing the thread or being obscure?

The ones Valen had went to Minbar and stayed there until Delenn used one of them. The other two are still there in 2260. So where did the three triluminaries that Zathras brought up from Epsilon 3 come from?

See, if the triluminary Delenn had wasn't "used up," than that means, in the year 2260, there were 4 triluminaries... the 3 Zathras brought from E3 and the one Delenn had (in her quarters, I guess, on B5). Since the idea of 4 tris made me cry, I was just guessing about the disappearing thing.

Goddamnit, why did they have to have THREE tris?! If there were just one it would be much easier to trace.
 
Hmm, lessee.
Delenn was given one. (she used it to turn into her more human self)
The Grey Council had one on its staff.
Sinclair had one (he used to turn into Valen and turn Sakai into Mrs. Valen.)

Maybe the one for Sinclair came from Episilon 3? Or, maybe Sinclair just left him a triluminary of his own. HArd to say.
 
According to the theory, there are actually 6 tris (3 old + 3 new), until the 3 new tris are taken back into the past (and thereby become the old tris after 1,000yrs).

Does that makes things clearer or more confusing?
 
I will never fully agree that Delenn is 100% human. Even Dr. Franklin makes a comment to her (when she is fasting after Sheridan Geronimo'ed himself into the pits of Z'Ha'Dum) that Minbari may be able to fast like that, but she is (and I quote him) "part human now." Not ALL human, but PART human.

I would think that a specialist in xenobiology would be able to run scans on Delenn and say "ahh, got some Minbari and some Human going on here," even if it's something as subtle as a trace of Minbari in the DNA code.

Ok, whole seperate argument here, but...

Lennier said, early in season 1, that there are 2 castes in Minbari society. Now, surely, I would think a Minbari academic would know how many castes are in his society.

Reality is that the story changes and so you get stuff that is inconsistent. And then you have to come up with in-story "explanations" as to why the character said or did something that turns out to be wrong later. The most common "explanation" I've heard for Lennier's flub is that religious or warrior Minbari just never thing about the workers. I don't like this one, because Lennier is way too considerate and open-minded to do that. Maybe Neroon would do that, not Lennier.

Lennier said two because, at that time in the series, there were two. Than JMS decided he wanted three. So there's an inconsitency. Big deal.

We all know that he plans for Delenn's transformation changed a lot- she was suppsoed to be a dude, etc. So who knows what JMS was thinking when he made Franklin say that. Story change- deal.

The only in-story "explanation" that you can use in such cases is that the character misspoke. He fucked up. Happens. Last night I watched a comedian on TV tell a story about how he tried to order a chicken sandwich and instead said "chicken situation."

Dr Franklin ordered a chicken situation.
 
Or, to muddy the waters further yet -- there are only three triluminaries, but in 2260 they're all in two places at once.
 
According to the theory, there are actually 6 tris (3 old + 3 new), until the 3 new tris are taken back into the past (and thereby become the old tris after 1,000yrs).

Does that makes things clearer or more confusing?

Whaaaa.....

Hey, remember when we thought B5 was cooler than Trek because it didn't have confusing, annoying time travel stories? Yeah.
 
Who frackin' knows.

I do. I keep telling you people, but nobody listens to me! :D

And the history of the triluminary.

Triluminaries. Plural. There are three of them.

(though I seem to recall Episilon 3 only being there for what? 500 years, so 1,000 years in the past may be too far back.)

Everybody gets confused on this point. Varn says he has been the guardian of the Great Machine for 500 years. He tells Sinclair that his people are long dead, except for "The Outcasts" who were rejected by his people and exiled. The captain of the Outcast ship, Tarkan, says his people have been searching for Epsilon 3 and the Great Machine for 500 years. Why everybody misremembers this as somebody saying the Great Machine is 500 years old is one of the great mysteries of B5. If the Outcasts have been searching for the GM for 500 years, it has obviously been around for longer the 500 years. Also, if they've been searching for it, I have to assume that Epsilon 3 is not their home planet, since presumably somebody in their party would have known where that was. My theory is that somebody (probably the Volrons) bult the GM on Epsilon 3 where they knew they would eventually need it. They started work on it 1,000 years ago, when the Shadows were at their lowest ebb and unlikely to stumble across it. They built it where Sinclair told them they'd have to build it, and no doubt influenced the construction decisions on B4 and B5 (via the Minbari) to make sure they were built where they needed to be as well.

Once it was in place they recruited some of Varn's people to act as guardians and keep the secret. The Outcasts probably wanted to seized the Machine for themselves, and were thus exiled from their homeworld without knowing the location of the GM. The beacon it sent out finally gave its position away. Perhaps it included a message in the language of their people, or some code or pattern they recognized.

In any event, there is nothing in the series to suggest that the GM is only 500 years old, or that Varn's people had anything to do with creating it.

I doubt Sinclair had anything to do directly with creating the Triluminaries, which were presumably beyond any technology he knew, and that of the Minbari of 1,000 years ago. (And probably of the Minbari of today.) He probably gave one of the working models he had with him to Kosh and Ulkesh and they took it from there - either incorporating something from Sinclair's (now useless) link or not. Then they went off the create the set that would sit on Epsilon 3 for 500 to 1000 years waiting for Sinclair, while Valen gave the "other" three to the Minbari. (Remembering always that there are only actually 3 of the things, but that two different versions of that set of three exist simultanteous for about 1,000 years because of Sinclair's time jaunt.)

Valen makes sure the Minbari know that it's one of their most sacred artifacts and that it will be around when he's captured in the future.

Well, he certainly doesn't make sure that they know he's going to be captured in the future. The three triluminaries are certainly semi-sacred objects, but they also have other uses. The fact that they "scan" the Human captives at The Line with one of them indicates that they've been used that way before. On the other hand the fact that the GC who gives a triluminary to Delenn tells her it won't be missed because there are two other tells us that they don't get used very often. It also suggests that they're considered interchangable, since the GC didn't seem to care which of the three he grabbed for Delenn.

*Whew!*

Joe
 
Or, to muddy the waters further yet -- there are only three triluminaries, but in 2260 they're all in two places at once.

Exactly.

In 2260 two triluminaries on are Minbar. One is in Delenn's quarters with the (inactive) Chrysalis machine. Meanwhile, back on Epsilon 3, there are 3 triluminaries, plus another Chrysalis machine. (You guys all missed the two Chrysalis machines, didn't you? :))

In fact there are only (and were ever only) 3 triluminaries and 1 Chrysalis machine. But because they travelled through time within their own "lifetimes" they exist in two different places at the same time for a period of between 500 and 1,000 years (assuming the connection to the GM and Epsilon 3 are correct.)

Zathrus brings the 1 and only Chrysalis machine and the 3 and only Triluminaries from Epsilon 3 to the White Star in 2260 (along with the time stabilizers, which I suspect are also Technology obtained from the Vorlon Store in the E3 mall.) The Chrysalis machine (packed in a crate decorated with the Minbari circle/triangle symbo) and Triluminaries are transferred to Babylon 4 and go back in time with Sinclair and Zathras. During or shortly after the time journey, Sinclair uses a triluminary and the Chrysalis device to become Valen. After reforming Minbari society he bequeaths all four objects which he brought from the future (and which therefore had to be created at some point) to the Minbari. They are kept on Minbar until Delenn begins her mission to B5. At some point she acquires the Chrysalis machine, but the GC do not give her a triluminary to activate it, still being divided on the matter of prophecy. Finally one of her colleagues (I'm assuming Religious Caste) "borrows" one and gives it to her. That leaves two triluminaries on Minbar, 1 in Delenn's quarters on B5 and 1 Chrysalis machine in Delenn's quarters on B5. Meanwhile a full set of mystery technology (3 triluminaries and a Chrysalis device) are sitting on Epsilon 3, waiting to begin the journey that will eventually take them back in time and then forward through normal time to Delenn and the Minbari.

Better?

Joe
 
Better, yes, thank you.

However, that still doesn't explain why they needed three triluminaries. They could have gotten by with just one.

If the answer is "Minbari do everything in threes," then just add that to my list of why the Minbari suck.
 

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