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Universal Translator
- Thread starter Jomar
- Start date
Galahad
Regular
Do you really think G'Kar would ever consider uttering Centauri words? It would be like the dark speech of Mordor to him. He may have forgiven Londo in the end, but he said he could never forgive the Centauri Republic.
I don't reckon he'd speak Centauri at all, he's too patriotic for that!
I don't reckon he'd speak Centauri at all, he's too patriotic for that!
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
Sorry, its getting late and I work tomorrow morning so I don't have time to read through all of these posts, so I apolagise if I'm repeating what someone else has already said.
That said: I always thought we were supposed to accept that some conversations (especially between different species) were in Interlac and others were in peoples' various languages, but JMS expected us accept it all in english, because to do otherwise would be a huge waste of time.
Personally, I like Farscape's idea of translator microbes being injected shortly after birth.
That said: I always thought we were supposed to accept that some conversations (especially between different species) were in Interlac and others were in peoples' various languages, but JMS expected us accept it all in english, because to do otherwise would be a huge waste of time.
Personally, I like Farscape's idea of translator microbes being injected shortly after birth.
Galahad, I think that depends on which G'Kar you're talking about. While I agree that the G'Kar during S3.5/4/5 wouldn't do such a thing, I'm also reminded of watching "In the Beginning" during its original airing. When G'Kar hit the screen, he was back to being the scheming, sleazy, do anything for tech/money/psi-ability G'Kar. My first thought during "In the Beginning" (the scene discussing the arms deal) was "WOW! I missed this guy!"
I'm sure the pre-"Dust to Dust" G'Kar would have spoken Centauri at every opportunity possible if it meant gaining anything for the Narn Regime; he was a jarhead patriot instead of a philosophical patriot.
G'Kar changed more than any other character over the course of the series, IMHO, so when talking about what he would or wouldn't do, you have to consider the timeframe. Just look at the difference between the G'Kar in "Midnight on the Firing Line", the G'Kar in "The Long, Twilight Struggle", and the G'Kar in "The Fall of Centauri Prime".
The character is so powerful in all "moments of his transition" that commenting on G'Kar's character without the appropriate timeframe is like talking about completely different personas.
Just my 2 cents. ;-)
-Tim
Kribu
Administrator
Yes, I do think he would have. He was a diplomat as well as a patriot, and he was a pretty intelligent person even at his most stubborn times. Besides, being a patriot does *not* necessarily mean refusing to speak the language of your (former) occupier, in real life at least.
And those who don't think he'd have spoken Centauri in S5 - just what language would he have spoken to the snotty Centauri minister in the Centauri court when he went there as Londo's bodyguard? English? Narn? I doubt the snotty Centauri minister would have understood either. I even doubt the snotty Centauri minister would have been fluent in Interlac.
Besides, there is a certain satisfaction for a person with a history of occupation to "outdo" the former occupants, to show them that he's better than them. Being able to speak their language while they can't speak his can be part of it, showing the occupants that they're simply not as intelligent, not even being able to learn another language.
It all depends on the tone of voice, and of course the general bearing of the person. If the person acts humbly, like a former slave, it doesn't matter what language he's using. If the person acts proudly, it yet again doesn't matter what language he's using.
And those who don't think he'd have spoken Centauri in S5 - just what language would he have spoken to the snotty Centauri minister in the Centauri court when he went there as Londo's bodyguard? English? Narn? I doubt the snotty Centauri minister would have understood either. I even doubt the snotty Centauri minister would have been fluent in Interlac.
Besides, there is a certain satisfaction for a person with a history of occupation to "outdo" the former occupants, to show them that he's better than them. Being able to speak their language while they can't speak his can be part of it, showing the occupants that they're simply not as intelligent, not even being able to learn another language.
It all depends on the tone of voice, and of course the general bearing of the person. If the person acts humbly, like a former slave, it doesn't matter what language he's using. If the person acts proudly, it yet again doesn't matter what language he's using.
A_M_Swallow
Regular
An interesting side issue, since Teep Town is a suburb of Geneva in Switzerland the lifelong human telepaths are almost certainly fluent in French.
Galahad
Regular
Well if the french had ever got the drop on us during the Napoleonic campaigns (was never going to happen), I'd never adopt their tongue. Nor if the Nazi's had taken us on. Having said that, you could argue that the Centauri adopted a similar approach to the English in relation to Cymru (Wales). We oppressed them to such a degree that it was illegal to speak cymric, we attempted to abolish the tongue and confound it to history. Probably an attempt to crush covert opposition. It's even technically still legal to shoot welshmen with a bow and arrow from a certain cathedral on a certain day of the year (the law was never repealed). I think it's really bad that we did that, and forced them to adopt a name for themselves and their country which means foreign or alien in there own tongue. That was a sick twist of humour.
Kribu
Administrator
It's always easy to go the "if" route. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif Forgive me for saying this, but if this has not happened to you, you have no way of knowing how you - or all of your countrymen - would act or react.
I happen to live in a country which was occupied by various oppressive foreign forces for 752 years out of the last 784. By your example, all "patriotic" Estonians should refuse to ever learn or use German, Danish, Polish, Swedish or Russian. Sorry, but I just cannot see the point in it.
Knowledge is power. And knowing - and using, if necessary - the language of your oppressor/enemy/former enemy can often lead to much better results than stubbornly refusing to learn/use it.
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
And how exactly would you have avoided that if French or German were all that was being taught in the schools, and required for getting any kind of job? Would you have "patriotically" flunked out and quietly starved to death? That would have helped your country a lot.
Regards,
Joe
Galahad
Regular
Well Welsh is still around isn't it?
English would still be taught underground. I'm no good at learning languages anyway which is my main point /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
I must be suicidal though, because the only language I have really interested in learning is Hebrew, and that would serve me really well under a Nazi regime.
Points taken, but to be honest I'd probably go off and live in the woods or something. Go native!
You are also assuming some nationalistic pride on my part. Let me make this clear, Britain is sinking in the mud and there is nothing I can do to stop it. Except pray and write and hope someone out there listens.
As a boy scout I swore an oath, I promise to do my duty to God and the Queen. Should the day ever come when the Queen betrays my God, then I will betray my Queen!
Somebody once said "If I had to choose between betraying my friends and betraying my country, I hope to God I'd have the guts to betray my country!"
The nation is in need of political reform, and we seriously need to look at the laws we are laying down and ask is this what we want for our kids?
I'd like to join C S Lewis and J R R Tolkien in their time of grave spinning at the moment because they would weep if they saw the state of this island!
It's sunday and I'm a bit wazzed off, sorry if this is coming over a bit strong /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
English would still be taught underground. I'm no good at learning languages anyway which is my main point /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
I must be suicidal though, because the only language I have really interested in learning is Hebrew, and that would serve me really well under a Nazi regime.
Points taken, but to be honest I'd probably go off and live in the woods or something. Go native!
You are also assuming some nationalistic pride on my part. Let me make this clear, Britain is sinking in the mud and there is nothing I can do to stop it. Except pray and write and hope someone out there listens.
As a boy scout I swore an oath, I promise to do my duty to God and the Queen. Should the day ever come when the Queen betrays my God, then I will betray my Queen!
Somebody once said "If I had to choose between betraying my friends and betraying my country, I hope to God I'd have the guts to betray my country!"
The nation is in need of political reform, and we seriously need to look at the laws we are laying down and ask is this what we want for our kids?
I'd like to join C S Lewis and J R R Tolkien in their time of grave spinning at the moment because they would weep if they saw the state of this island!
It's sunday and I'm a bit wazzed off, sorry if this is coming over a bit strong /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
I'm not sure how either of these statements received "cliche" status. i don't know just how many American you know, Joe, but the majority of the ones I've met only speak other languages if they're born/spent a lot of time in other countries or are Hebrew.
As for Europeans, I did make a broad generalisation. I merely meant that many European nations are realitively small compared to the US and being multilingual is essential for anyone who wishes to travel more than a hundred miles in any direction. In countries that are isolated, this would not be the case.
My comments were intended as typical in nature, not meant to offend or confuse anyone.
Joke I once heard long ago ...
Q: How do you tell a foreign person in America?
A: He speaks a foreign language fluently and speaks English poorly.
Q: How do yo utell an American in America?
A: He doesn't speak a foreign language at all and speaks English poorly. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
The idea might be cliche but I know very few people who would be considered fluent in a foreign language. I know many who have studied one or two but only in the past few years (like in high school) and it an often be hard for them to recall how to speak it. True, many of them can struggle through (not all of them, some have forgetten almost completely) but they say you don't really know a foreign language unless you can easily think in it. I had a conversation with an international student at my school a few years ago; he kept apologising for his "bad English" which shocked us there since - even though the two of us Americans there had studied a total of three non-English languages in the past - he was speaking English much better than any of us could speak another language. He seemed to think his wasn't good enough though he could carry on a conversation with only the briefest of pauses to think up the correct word. I'm guessing the idea that Americans don't often speak a second language is because we almost never are taught one when we're very young so many of us don't actually know one or know it very well. There are places where a second language (usually Spanish) is very common but there are also places that are as white as can be and you'd go years without hearing non-English words.
Q: How do you tell a foreign person in America?
A: He speaks a foreign language fluently and speaks English poorly.
Q: How do yo utell an American in America?
A: He doesn't speak a foreign language at all and speaks English poorly. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
The idea might be cliche but I know very few people who would be considered fluent in a foreign language. I know many who have studied one or two but only in the past few years (like in high school) and it an often be hard for them to recall how to speak it. True, many of them can struggle through (not all of them, some have forgetten almost completely) but they say you don't really know a foreign language unless you can easily think in it. I had a conversation with an international student at my school a few years ago; he kept apologising for his "bad English" which shocked us there since - even though the two of us Americans there had studied a total of three non-English languages in the past - he was speaking English much better than any of us could speak another language. He seemed to think his wasn't good enough though he could carry on a conversation with only the briefest of pauses to think up the correct word. I'm guessing the idea that Americans don't often speak a second language is because we almost never are taught one when we're very young so many of us don't actually know one or know it very well. There are places where a second language (usually Spanish) is very common but there are also places that are as white as can be and you'd go years without hearing non-English words.
HeinleinFan
Regular
*Q: How do yo utell an American in America?
A: He doesn't speak a foreign language at all and speaks English poorly.*
Well, it's not really a joke, is it? It's so true it hurts.
I had a physics prof in college who was an Egyptian. Her English was surprisingly quite correct, though she spoke with a distinct and sometimes difficult to understand accent. One day I caught some of my fellow students snickering at her behind her back while she was explaining a formula at the blackboard. I was *privileged* to have some other classes with these people, so I knew that their grasp of *their* mother tongue was suspect, to say the least. I cornered them after class and remarked to them that on the day their Arabic was half as good as her English, they could start laughing. /forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif
A: He doesn't speak a foreign language at all and speaks English poorly.*
Well, it's not really a joke, is it? It's so true it hurts.
I had a physics prof in college who was an Egyptian. Her English was surprisingly quite correct, though she spoke with a distinct and sometimes difficult to understand accent. One day I caught some of my fellow students snickering at her behind her back while she was explaining a formula at the blackboard. I was *privileged* to have some other classes with these people, so I knew that their grasp of *their* mother tongue was suspect, to say the least. I cornered them after class and remarked to them that on the day their Arabic was half as good as her English, they could start laughing. /forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
<rant mode> I always wondered why we never see more translation devices in scifi and when we do why are they always so f**cking bulky (or STNG rediculously small). We never see something like headset for two way talk or a monophone for just listening. You think that these would be big sellers on B5. I mean we can almost do this now (more work on voice recognition software needs to be done). Why would it be impossible to build somthing that is small and practical that can translate to and from a couple of languages with the technology available 250 years from now. <rant off>
Question, durring the council meetings on B5 what language are they using? English because it is an Earth facility, or interlac. Once the intersteller alliance moved to mimbar would they change it to mimbari or keep it as it was.
English as the official language of EA poses some questions. I am guessing that when the EA was formed the nations in it kept their own language for internal use but use english for EA use. If you were french and were running for local office not knowing english would not have any bearing on it. But if that person was going to run to be france's representative to the EA or an EA senator he or she would be expected or possibly required to know english. I have to wonder how much the global language would influence and possibly overtake the local languages. Example, in B5's era what language would the traffic signs in france be in. Would they be in french because traffic is locally regulated or would have EA passed laws that all official government signs on earth be in english so that anyone from anywhere on earth could read them? Would nations over time feel the need to teach the common language along with their own instead of teaching it latter as an elective? Would the need to go anywhere in the world, or solar system for that matter, for a job also take a toll on your original language? I suspect that after enough generations local languages will go from being dominant, to just being used for national occasions or just used socially, to just used around the house, to only taught in school as part of local history. Remember by B5's time EA is less than 200 years old. Of course given enough time and the right kinds of pressure interlac could become the dominant language of earth.
As to the issue of whether an alien world would have more than one language I think some variables would need to be taken into account.
Which did the beings of a world do first, spread out and colonize their home world or develop civilization. Obviously we colonized then developed several different civilizations and languages. But what if this were the exception to the norm, and most other races first developed a civilization then spread out across their world. In that case they would probably have the same language across the planet with some minor variations such different accents and possible slight differences in spelling.
Was there a unifying factor in that world’s history that may have gotten the people of that world to settle on a single language? This may have been the case with the centauri. Early on in their history the centauri were fighting for their survival against another sentient species that formed on their world, the Xon. This war had lasted for several generations long enough that if there were different centauri civilizations and languages to settle on a single language to better unify and command their armies. This may have also occurred with the narn when the centauri took over their world.
Question, durring the council meetings on B5 what language are they using? English because it is an Earth facility, or interlac. Once the intersteller alliance moved to mimbar would they change it to mimbari or keep it as it was.
English as the official language of EA poses some questions. I am guessing that when the EA was formed the nations in it kept their own language for internal use but use english for EA use. If you were french and were running for local office not knowing english would not have any bearing on it. But if that person was going to run to be france's representative to the EA or an EA senator he or she would be expected or possibly required to know english. I have to wonder how much the global language would influence and possibly overtake the local languages. Example, in B5's era what language would the traffic signs in france be in. Would they be in french because traffic is locally regulated or would have EA passed laws that all official government signs on earth be in english so that anyone from anywhere on earth could read them? Would nations over time feel the need to teach the common language along with their own instead of teaching it latter as an elective? Would the need to go anywhere in the world, or solar system for that matter, for a job also take a toll on your original language? I suspect that after enough generations local languages will go from being dominant, to just being used for national occasions or just used socially, to just used around the house, to only taught in school as part of local history. Remember by B5's time EA is less than 200 years old. Of course given enough time and the right kinds of pressure interlac could become the dominant language of earth.
As to the issue of whether an alien world would have more than one language I think some variables would need to be taken into account.
Which did the beings of a world do first, spread out and colonize their home world or develop civilization. Obviously we colonized then developed several different civilizations and languages. But what if this were the exception to the norm, and most other races first developed a civilization then spread out across their world. In that case they would probably have the same language across the planet with some minor variations such different accents and possible slight differences in spelling.
Was there a unifying factor in that world’s history that may have gotten the people of that world to settle on a single language? This may have been the case with the centauri. Early on in their history the centauri were fighting for their survival against another sentient species that formed on their world, the Xon. This war had lasted for several generations long enough that if there were different centauri civilizations and languages to settle on a single language to better unify and command their armies. This may have also occurred with the narn when the centauri took over their world.
Shaal Mayan
Regular
This is a good question since I always wondered about that scene in ITB where Morann says to Dukhat of the arrival of the humans and says we do not understrand their language.Well english is what they are speaking. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gifThere are many other scenes in B5 I am sure that should have been scripted in the native language.
When aliens are speaking among themselves, we hear them speak in English, but its supposed that they are speaking in their native tongue. It would be hard to make everyone speak in a different language, JMS would have had to invent how many languages (Centauri, Minbari, Narn, Drazi, etc)? Its enough that he invented Andronato. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif Plus the viewers would pass their time reading subtitles. So, it's better if its just supposed that aliens speak their own language when they talk to each other.
Shaal Mayan
Regular
You would think for the sake of the scene and the believeability part that he would have invented the minbari language for the scene that I mentioned. Cause when Morann said that I was laughing at how JMS could have written that /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif.I think the scene should have been written out in entirely.
