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Universal Translator
- Thread starter Jomar
- Start date
Shaal Mayan
Regular
I don't give anyone breaks I expect a good story that is well written (which I happen to love ITB it is still one of the best B5 flicks) with all of the alien dialogue included or excluded if you don't want to write the story in full .Then I say don;t write it all.I don't think I am asking to much to invent an alien language where it is obviously needed.
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
Especially when inventing languages is so easy. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
As noted above, in most war movies the Russians, Germans and Japanese speak English when talking to each other, because switching languages is distracting and annoying, many people don't like subtitles*, and because it is often hard to find enough actors who actually speak the languages to make it worth the effort. (Not to mention that the script then has to be translated and rendered into English subtitles - which means that the writer's original lines get tossed out the window. The translation won't be an exact match and the subtitles will be abbreviated by necessity, to keep up with the spoken dialogue.)
Given that this is a well-established convention in Hollywood, going back to the earliest sound films, I don't see any reason for JMS to have abandoned it when it came to the alien languages in his TV series.
Regards,
Joe
* An aversion to subtitles in not only an American problem, BTW. I've seen numerous posts around the 'net complaining that B5 has never been dubbed into certain languages, and that people are "stuck" with subtitles.
Shaal Mayan
Regular
With regard to the subtitles it is definately a matter of opinion (sp)I have several movies that are from different countries and it doesn't bother me all.As for my post on alien language I have said my peace on the subject and won;t say anymore my opinion stands he should have wrote a language out or made a few lines up as the show went along.
<joke>Well, maybe they were speaking English - they'd come across a dictionary floating in space and such. But they were speaking propper English - something very few Humans actually speak ... so when the EA fleet shows up, they have no idea what these creatures are speaking ... Kinda like trying to understand a Californian surfer or some very rural redneck or some of the thicker sounds from England. </joke> /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
As for the subtitles debate ... I used to not really like them but after getting into anime, I've grown to really prefer subtitles over dubs. Dubs are only worthwhile when they actually have the voice actors ... act! - instead of just reading their lines no where near the others. I can't say for American programs dubbed or subbed into other languages, but anime dubs usually seem more abrievated than the corresponding subtitles so ... not sure dubs solve that problem ...
I disagree with you Shaal Mayan.
jms said he wanted to use english, and I think that scene was fine. Its obvious what is going on, it doesn't need subtitles to make it more believeable. And for one did not crack up laughing, didn't even find it funny. But it's your opinion /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
jms said he wanted to use english, and I think that scene was fine. Its obvious what is going on, it doesn't need subtitles to make it more believeable. And for one did not crack up laughing, didn't even find it funny. But it's your opinion /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Teekas Dragon
Regular
I'm not Joe but i decided to throw my two cents in on this. I live in America (Arkansas to be exact) and have never left the country or spent any large amount of time in an area where i would need to know another language. BUT, i know spanish and i had my dog trained in german (therefore i don't know much german but i can speak a little bit).
I don't know about the rest of the country but there were 3 foriegn languages taught at my high school. I'm pretty sure if my "backward hick" state of arkansas has high schools teaching other languages that there's a pretty good deal of them being taught the same stuff at other schools.
Oh well, there's my daily rant............
Jerome
GaribaldisHair
Regular
Or Delenn to Lennier in her quarters after having Sheridan for dinner, or Delenn to the White Star to make it rain so Sheridan could fall asleep in Messages from Earth.
The problem is, if you follow Shaal Mayan's point through to its logical conclusion, you would have to script every single scene between Minbari and Minbari in full in the Minbari's (invented) language otherwise it just comes across as (at best) inconsistent or (at worst) lazy.
Instead consistency was achieved by sticking to only scripting Minbari (I think) into their own language for a couple of lines at a time, where it was appropriate to do so.
The other obvious one being Sinclair to Delenn on the bridge of the Whilte Star in WWEI, which I assume was done to emphasise that the characters had switched from English to Minbari in mid-conversation.
The obvious comparison here is with ST, where Klingon appears to be a fully realised, consistent invented language. However, even this is not used for every scene where Klingon is speaking to Klingon, because constant switching between one spoken, understandable language, and another using subtitles is distracting for the viewer, however you slice it.
Over the course of a 5 year show, I can imagine many viewers would get the hump with it and stop watching long before the end.
Just my £0.02.
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
It is certainly close to one. The difference is that it wasn't invented by Trek's creators for the series, but by a trained linguist, Marc Okrand, who was hired by Paramount to create a full-blown language with grammar, volcabulary and rules of usage for the movies. It took Okrand several years to develop Klingon into a really versatile language, and Paramount paid a fair amount of money for his services. Once the film franchise was on a profitable footing and they knew there would be new television series, it made perfect sense for Paramount to do this - especially given the huge and rabid fan base Trek had. None of these conditions applied to Warner Bros. and B5, so there was no way that they were going to spend a similar sum for a professional linguist to create languages for JMS's fictional universe.
Still, Shaal Mayan thinks JMS should have cobbled together similarly rich Minbari language in his spare time while producing and writing most of B5, and despite not being a professional linguist. Whatever.
Regards,
Joe
P.S. We do now have the translation for the exchange between Lennier and Delenn after Sheridan was called away from the Minbari ritual meal:
Lennier: That mother****er didn't even taste my flarn.
Delenn: Your flarn sucks anyway.
Regards,
Joe
GaribaldisHair
Regular
ROTFLMAO
/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
How much of a stretch is it to ask people to believe that when aliens are speaking amongst themselves that they're speaking their own language and not the english that we're eharing? I mean, you don't have a problem with the whole "there's this alien race that doesn't really exist that lives on this space station in the future which doesn't exist either and they're fighting this big war" etc. etc. etc.
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
As with other things in the show (like sound in space) for dramatic effect. Thus Sinclair and Delenn switch to Minbari in mid-conversation to avoid being overheard by the Humans. Delenn and Lennier revert to Minbari after speaking English for Sheridan's benefit as a way of reminding us that they were only speaking English because they had a guest. (And in that case their comments are not subtitled, which reinforces the idea that they are aliens speaking privately.) It is very rarely the case that subtitles are use for alien speech in the series. In fact, I'm blanking on any other instances at the moment. But I suspect that at least some of them involve aliens speaking in the presence of Humans, or at least where they could be overheard. In that case, the usage makes sense.
Regards,
Joe
Elenopa
Regular
The thing that gets me in ST, especially Next Gen and DS9, is with the Universal Translator.
Apparently, it's supposed to be working all the time, automatically traslating the alien tounges so that the listener hears their own language. If this is so, why can the Klingons still speak their own language if they want to?
Has the UT been programmed to not tranlate Klingon? If so, have they all had to learn English?
This is just one of the things that bugs me about Trek. (Don't talk to me about the reset button)
Apparently, it's supposed to be working all the time, automatically traslating the alien tounges so that the listener hears their own language. If this is so, why can the Klingons still speak their own language if they want to?
Has the UT been programmed to not tranlate Klingon? If so, have they all had to learn English?
This is just one of the things that bugs me about Trek. (Don't talk to me about the reset button)
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
That one has always bugged me.
Galahad
Regular
It's just that the Universal Translator has got taste when it comes to language, and plays up when it comes across one that is distinctively unpallatable, not so sure about Klingon, but French... come one!!!! /forums/images/graemlins/devil.gif
I'm with Marcus on that one! (Ref: Voices of Authority)
I'm with Marcus on that one! (Ref: Voices of Authority)
