Vorlons and jamming Shadow vessels

[FlipperPA]

I've always thought that a thousand years ago, the Minbari were pretty much the equivalent to the war that the Drazi were circa ~ 2260. The point of the never ending war was the on going building up - and, tearing down - of all the lower races. While a "most evolved race" must have always been present in every one of these recurring wars, it must have been viewed as an accomplishment by the Vorlons, and an annoyance by the Shadows.

The reason, in 2261, that things changed was that ALL the lower races joined together as a single voice, a single race... the "younger" race.

While the Vorlons / Shadows conflict could have been the coolest thing to see ever, in the sense of watching Van Damme and Steven Seagall, the intellectual edge of the overall story of Bab-5 prevents these sorts of things from happening.

This continues to make me happy.

And visit this forum.

-Tim

 

[FlipperPA]

I've always thought that a thousand years ago, the Minbari were pretty much the equivalent to the war that the Drazi were circa ~ 2260. The point of the never ending war was the on going building up - and, tearing down - of all the lower races. While a "most evolved race" must have always been present in every one of these recurring wars, it must have been viewed as an accomplishment by the Vorlons, and an annoyance by the Shadows.

The reason, in 2261, that things changed was that ALL the lower races joined together as a single voice, a single race... the "younger" race.

While the Vorlons / Shadows conflict could have been the coolest thing to see ever, in the sense of watching Van Damme and Steven Seagall, the intellectual edge of the overall story of Bab-5 prevents these sorts of things from happening.

This continues to make me happy.

And visit this forum.

-Tim

 

[MartinRoth]

The point of the never ending war was the on going building up - and, tearing down - of all the lower races.

That's roughly what I thought. The Shadows never actually intended to win, just to "knock over the anthills". So they had to stop before the Minbari were actually defeated.

Of course, they couldn't let the younger races know this, so they had to appear to be defeated gradually, since if they suddenly surrendered when they appeared on the verge of victory, it'd raise suspicions.

Hm. Interesting, that last bit. Sounds quite familiar. Think JMS might've planned it that way?

 

[MartinRoth]

The point of the never ending war was the on going building up - and, tearing down - of all the lower races.

That's roughly what I thought. The Shadows never actually intended to win, just to "knock over the anthills". So they had to stop before the Minbari were actually defeated.

Of course, they couldn't let the younger races know this, so they had to appear to be defeated gradually, since if they suddenly surrendered when they appeared on the verge of victory, it'd raise suspicions.

Hm. Interesting, that last bit. Sounds quite familiar. Think JMS might've planned it that way?

 

[RW7427]

So are you saying that the Shadows allowed themselves to be defeated so that the Minbari could go on to become one First Ones in their own right?

 

[RW7427]

So are you saying that the Shadows allowed themselves to be defeated so that the Minbari could go on to become one First Ones in their own right?

 

[vacantlook]

I was always curious as to how/when Kosh put part of his conciousness into Sheridan.

Kosh first manifested a mind-to-mind connection in the episode "All Alone In The Night" when Sheridan had been captured by the Streibs (if I remember correctly). Do you think there could be a possiblity that Kosh showed up and implanted part of his consciousness in Sheridan while the Streibs had him unconscious and then left before Delenn and Hague showed up and attacked?

Minbari were pretty much the equivalent to the war that the Drazi were circa ~ 2260

With the Minbari being so much less advanced, it makes me wonder, aside from them and the Vorlons, who else fought on "the side of light" back then. Maybe the Walkers of Sigma-957 played a larger role in the war with the Shadows a thousand years ago and had a bit of conflict with the Vorlons about the conducting of the war leading to them being so pissed at hearing the name Vorlon when Ivanova and Marcus found them. Of course this is probably just extremely high speculation on my part, but sometimes it's fun to think about the possiblities.

 

[vacantlook]

I was always curious as to how/when Kosh put part of his conciousness into Sheridan.

Kosh first manifested a mind-to-mind connection in the episode "All Alone In The Night" when Sheridan had been captured by the Streibs (if I remember correctly). Do you think there could be a possiblity that Kosh showed up and implanted part of his consciousness in Sheridan while the Streibs had him unconscious and then left before Delenn and Hague showed up and attacked?

Minbari were pretty much the equivalent to the war that the Drazi were circa ~ 2260

With the Minbari being so much less advanced, it makes me wonder, aside from them and the Vorlons, who else fought on "the side of light" back then. Maybe the Walkers of Sigma-957 played a larger role in the war with the Shadows a thousand years ago and had a bit of conflict with the Vorlons about the conducting of the war leading to them being so pissed at hearing the name Vorlon when Ivanova and Marcus found them. Of course this is probably just extremely high speculation on my part, but sometimes it's fun to think about the possiblities.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

The Shadows may have used a similar strategy in the previous war. Hide behind the scenes, start fights between the "children" and help both sides.

The privilege of actually fighting the Shadows may have traditionally been reserved for the (near) First Ones. In "In to the Fire" the First One ships had no problems attacking Vorlon and Shadow ships.

If the Shadows have been making child species fight each other, who did the Vorlons have to fight a million years ago? The Walkers perhaps?

 

[A_M_Swallow]

The Shadows may have used a similar strategy in the previous war. Hide behind the scenes, start fights between the "children" and help both sides.

The privilege of actually fighting the Shadows may have traditionally been reserved for the (near) First Ones. In "In to the Fire" the First One ships had no problems attacking Vorlon and Shadow ships.

If the Shadows have been making child species fight each other, who did the Vorlons have to fight a million years ago? The Walkers perhaps?

 

[MartinRoth]

So are you saying that the Shadows allowed themselves to be defeated so that the Minbari could go on to become one First Ones in their own right?

I don't know if I'd quite go that far -- the Minbari were (and still are, at the time of B5) quite a long way away from First One status. But if the Shadows' goal is to strengthen the best of the lesser races through conflict, wiping them out would seem to be a bit counterproductive.

 

[MartinRoth]

So are you saying that the Shadows allowed themselves to be defeated so that the Minbari could go on to become one First Ones in their own right?

I don't know if I'd quite go that far -- the Minbari were (and still are, at the time of B5) quite a long way away from First One status. But if the Shadows' goal is to strengthen the best of the lesser races through conflict, wiping them out would seem to be a bit counterproductive.

 

[MartinRoth]

The privilege of actually fighting the Shadows may have traditionally been reserved for the (near) First Ones.

A bit from JMS, courtesy of the Lurkers Guide:

Aren't the Shadows defeating themselves by giving everyone a common enemy?

Nope. First they attacked careful to not let anyone know who was doing it, so they'd accuse each other. Then they'd let another take the credit/blame for it, the Centauri in this case. That'd spin off new alliances and new...wars, and everyone's scurrying for cover. THEN they reveal themselves, and now you've got re-scurrying, some who try to make deals, and then attack others (as stated) thinking they have an unbeatable ally....most of the killing up until this point was done by the others, not the shadows. This current campaign would also lead to scattering the pins, and watching as they restructure, and they'd pull out again to let them scurry...and keep chewing at each other, only coming out when necessary to tip things over, then recede again into the....shadows.

So the First Ones had nothing to do with it, traditionally.

 

[MartinRoth]

The privilege of actually fighting the Shadows may have traditionally been reserved for the (near) First Ones.

A bit from JMS, courtesy of the Lurkers Guide:

Aren't the Shadows defeating themselves by giving everyone a common enemy?

Nope. First they attacked careful to not let anyone know who was doing it, so they'd accuse each other. Then they'd let another take the credit/blame for it, the Centauri in this case. That'd spin off new alliances and new...wars, and everyone's scurrying for cover. THEN they reveal themselves, and now you've got re-scurrying, some who try to make deals, and then attack others (as stated) thinking they have an unbeatable ally....most of the killing up until this point was done by the others, not the shadows. This current campaign would also lead to scattering the pins, and watching as they restructure, and they'd pull out again to let them scurry...and keep chewing at each other, only coming out when necessary to tip things over, then recede again into the....shadows.

So the First Ones had nothing to do with it, traditionally.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

So the First Ones had nothing to do with it, traditionally.

By the time of Babylon 5 all the remaining First Ones were grown up children of the Shadows. From "Voices of Authority" the Walkers of 697 have abviously been through Shadow Wars many times. When Lorien and Ivanova round up the First Ones in "The Summoning" many of them have been on their own for a 1000 years, i.e. since the last Shadow War.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

So the First Ones had nothing to do with it, traditionally.

By the time of Babylon 5 all the remaining First Ones were grown up children of the Shadows. From "Voices of Authority" the Walkers of 697 have abviously been through Shadow Wars many times. When Lorien and Ivanova round up the First Ones in "The Summoning" many of them have been on their own for a 1000 years, i.e. since the last Shadow War.

 

[raisincajuns]

Were the Narns involved in the war?? They said something about the reasons they had no telepaths were because all of them were killed in a war and a shadow vessel is seen in their holy book.

 

[raisincajuns]

Were the Narns involved in the war?? They said something about the reasons they had no telepaths were because all of them were killed in a war and a shadow vessel is seen in their holy book.

 

[RW7427]

So are you saying that the Shadows allowed themselves to be defeated so that the Minbari could go on to become one First Ones in their own right?

I don't know if I'd quite go that far -- the Minbari were (and still are, at the time of B5) quite a long way away from First One status. But if the Shadows' goal is to strengthen the best of the lesser races through conflict, wiping them out would seem to be a bit counterproductive.

True.

 

[RW7427]

So are you saying that the Shadows allowed themselves to be defeated so that the Minbari could go on to become one First Ones in their own right?

I don't know if I'd quite go that far -- the Minbari were (and still are, at the time of B5) quite a long way away from First One status. But if the Shadows' goal is to strengthen the best of the lesser races through conflict, wiping them out would seem to be a bit counterproductive.

True.