Vorlons and jamming Shadow vessels

[Kitaro]

Thinking about time loop it could have been that the Vorlons did NOT know that telepathic abilities can block the shadow's vessels.
When Valen appeared he brought with him voluble information from the future, thus giving the "forces of light" the advantage they needed to end the war.

Remember that the B5 universe is a looped one, the B4 traveling back in time, the artifact that changes Dellen and Sinclair, all of these occur again and again in that time loop. The war 1000 years ago could not have been won without B4 and Valen information about the shadows, information he received from the Minbari and Vorlons who survived and won the last war and thus able to help the war this time around (and give all that is needed to the war 1000 years ago that helped in this war that helped in that war etc.)

 

[Kitaro]

Thinking about time loop it could have been that the Vorlons did NOT know that telepathic abilities can block the shadow's vessels.
When Valen appeared he brought with him voluble information from the future, thus giving the "forces of light" the advantage they needed to end the war.

Remember that the B5 universe is a looped one, the B4 traveling back in time, the artifact that changes Dellen and Sinclair, all of these occur again and again in that time loop. The war 1000 years ago could not have been won without B4 and Valen information about the shadows, information he received from the Minbari and Vorlons who survived and won the last war and thus able to help the war this time around (and give all that is needed to the war 1000 years ago that helped in this war that helped in that war etc.)

 

[Belran]

Knowing the fact that the Vorlons had been tinkering with other alien races' DNA to create teeps, then why didn't they do it to the Narn after all their teeps were killed in the last Shadow War? Why do the Centauri have them while the Narn don't? Did the Narn piss the Vorlons off in the last Shadow War (the Shadows did use the Narn Homeworld as a base). If the Vorlons stayed, rathering than going beyond the Rim, would the Narns be now getting teeps?

 

[Belran]

Knowing the fact that the Vorlons had been tinkering with other alien races' DNA to create teeps, then why didn't they do it to the Narn after all their teeps were killed in the last Shadow War? Why do the Centauri have them while the Narn don't? Did the Narn piss the Vorlons off in the last Shadow War (the Shadows did use the Narn Homeworld as a base). If the Vorlons stayed, rathering than going beyond the Rim, would the Narns be now getting teeps?

 

[RW7427]

Maybe they stopped tinkering with the other races before that period.

Another guess is this. I would think that it took a very long time, maybe even hundreds of years for that telepathic gene to amount to anything in the younger races. It could be that for some reason it was stronger in the Narns than say, the humans, and after the Narn teeps were killed in the Shadow war of long ago, the Vorlons had to wait for it to develop in the other races.

 

[RW7427]

Maybe they stopped tinkering with the other races before that period.

Another guess is this. I would think that it took a very long time, maybe even hundreds of years for that telepathic gene to amount to anything in the younger races. It could be that for some reason it was stronger in the Narns than say, the humans, and after the Narn teeps were killed in the Shadow war of long ago, the Vorlons had to wait for it to develop in the other races.

 

[Belran]

Excellent theory, never thought of that. However that would mean G'Kar and Lyta are going to be together for a very long time.

 

[Belran]

Excellent theory, never thought of that. However that would mean G'Kar and Lyta are going to be together for a very long time.

 

[RW7427]

Well, if you know the fate of Lyta Alexander, then you know that's not possible.

 

[RW7427]

Well, if you know the fate of Lyta Alexander, then you know that's not possible.

 

[KoshFan]

All right, I just watched a fragment of "In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum," and I've got some light to shed on the issue.

Delenn says that the last big war was ten thousand years ago, but that a thousand years back the Shadows started to rise again. "Before they could strike," she says, "they were defeated by an alliance of younger races, including the Minbari, and the few remaining First Ones."

So, I see several salient points here...

a) the Shadows weren't really in position to fight on a big scale yet. (This seems to contradict Delenn's advice for the present about not ticking the Shadows off early, but remember, in the last war they were coming out of a 9,000-year defeat, whereas in the present they were in a better position for starters.)
b) the Minbari and their allies also had First Ones help, beyond the Vorlons.
c) In the last war, a thousand years back, the younger races were more unified, or at least unified faster.

The picture I'm forming, therefore, is something like this:

The Shadows were on the rise, but they weren't really at full strength yet, and quite possibly still largely in hiding -- probably just a few ships rampaging around. They may have singled out the Minbari back then the way they singled out the Narns in the present. The Minbari were getting slaughtered, in part because they were not unified, until Valen showed up. Valen unified the Minbari and also brought together other races. The First Ones came on board too. Then this alliance fought the Shadows, and probably won by First One firepower backed up by Younger Race numbers. However, the alliance did not strike at many outlying Shadow bases, such as the Narn homeworld, and the Shadows were able to hide their ships across the galaxy. The Narns, of course, chased the Shadows off their homeworld by themselves, or possibly with G'lan/Kosh's backing. (Remember, G'lan is identified as the being of light who helped G'quan, and G'quan was the one who drove the Shadows off with the help of the mindwalkers.)

Regarding the use of telepaths: I'm pretty sure that the Minbari and their younger race allies knew nothing of the telepath stuff, although the First Ones may have been doing that for them. I think that the only younger race to use telepathy in that war were the Narns.

 

[KoshFan]

All right, I just watched a fragment of "In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum," and I've got some light to shed on the issue.

Delenn says that the last big war was ten thousand years ago, but that a thousand years back the Shadows started to rise again. "Before they could strike," she says, "they were defeated by an alliance of younger races, including the Minbari, and the few remaining First Ones."

So, I see several salient points here...

a) the Shadows weren't really in position to fight on a big scale yet. (This seems to contradict Delenn's advice for the present about not ticking the Shadows off early, but remember, in the last war they were coming out of a 9,000-year defeat, whereas in the present they were in a better position for starters.)
b) the Minbari and their allies also had First Ones help, beyond the Vorlons.
c) In the last war, a thousand years back, the younger races were more unified, or at least unified faster.

The picture I'm forming, therefore, is something like this:

The Shadows were on the rise, but they weren't really at full strength yet, and quite possibly still largely in hiding -- probably just a few ships rampaging around. They may have singled out the Minbari back then the way they singled out the Narns in the present. The Minbari were getting slaughtered, in part because they were not unified, until Valen showed up. Valen unified the Minbari and also brought together other races. The First Ones came on board too. Then this alliance fought the Shadows, and probably won by First One firepower backed up by Younger Race numbers. However, the alliance did not strike at many outlying Shadow bases, such as the Narn homeworld, and the Shadows were able to hide their ships across the galaxy. The Narns, of course, chased the Shadows off their homeworld by themselves, or possibly with G'lan/Kosh's backing. (Remember, G'lan is identified as the being of light who helped G'quan, and G'quan was the one who drove the Shadows off with the help of the mindwalkers.)

Regarding the use of telepaths: I'm pretty sure that the Minbari and their younger race allies knew nothing of the telepath stuff, although the First Ones may have been doing that for them. I think that the only younger race to use telepathy in that war were the Narns.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

Knowing the fact that the Vorlons had been tinkering with other alien races' DNA to create teeps, then why didn't they do it to the Narn after all their teeps were killed in the last Shadow War? Why do the Centauri have them while the Narn don't? Did the Narn piss the Vorlons off in the last Shadow War (the Shadows did use the Narn Homeworld as a base). If the Vorlons stayed, rathering than going beyond the Rim, would the Narns be now getting teeps?

It is possible that the Narns were the first race to be given telepathic abilities by the Vorlons. Either just before or in the early stages of the war. The success of the Mindwalkers probably encouraged the Vorlons to modify other races. The Shadows wiped out the Mindwalkers, possibly using a virus.

Kosh tells Sinclair that the Narn and Centauri are dieing races and that we should let them pass. Resupplying the Narns with telepathic genes would be the opposite of allowing them to pass.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

Knowing the fact that the Vorlons had been tinkering with other alien races' DNA to create teeps, then why didn't they do it to the Narn after all their teeps were killed in the last Shadow War? Why do the Centauri have them while the Narn don't? Did the Narn piss the Vorlons off in the last Shadow War (the Shadows did use the Narn Homeworld as a base). If the Vorlons stayed, rathering than going beyond the Rim, would the Narns be now getting teeps?

It is possible that the Narns were the first race to be given telepathic abilities by the Vorlons. Either just before or in the early stages of the war. The success of the Mindwalkers probably encouraged the Vorlons to modify other races. The Shadows wiped out the Mindwalkers, possibly using a virus.

Kosh tells Sinclair that the Narn and Centauri are dieing races and that we should let them pass. Resupplying the Narns with telepathic genes would be the opposite of allowing them to pass.

 

[gangster]

My question is this: since the telepaths weren't used by the Minbari in the last war, how precisely did the Minbari and their allies take down the Shadows back then?

Something I didn't see brought up in this thread about the 1st (?) Shadow War is Anna Sheridan explaning the Shadows and just come out of hibernation after a (I think) a thosuand years when her explorer ship landed on Z'Ha'Dun
so they had to protect themselves by destroying the ship. This indicates to me the Shadows had a very long hibernation period so it could be they had to go into hibernation before they could complete the 1st(?) Shadow War. Comments?

 

[gangster]

My question is this: since the telepaths weren't used by the Minbari in the last war, how precisely did the Minbari and their allies take down the Shadows back then?

Something I didn't see brought up in this thread about the 1st (?) Shadow War is Anna Sheridan explaning the Shadows and just come out of hibernation after a (I think) a thosuand years when her explorer ship landed on Z'Ha'Dun
so they had to protect themselves by destroying the ship. This indicates to me the Shadows had a very long hibernation period so it could be they had to go into hibernation before they could complete the 1st(?) Shadow War. Comments?

 

[KoshFan]

No, I think the Shadows were outright defeated. I doubt such an ancient race could be compelled by their own physiology to hibernate.

 

[KoshFan]

No, I think the Shadows were outright defeated. I doubt such an ancient race could be compelled by their own physiology to hibernate.

 

[RW7427]

Maybe stress caused them to hibernate. All that warfare has to wear on an alien, I'm sure.

 

[RW7427]

Maybe stress caused them to hibernate. All that warfare has to wear on an alien, I'm sure.