DaRkEnEdStAr
Regular
Talking of cutting scenes I have heard that the episodes wwe and wwe pt2 had a few scenes cut out ... is there any truth to this rumour and if there is , will we ever get to see them ?
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war without end
- Thread starter DaRkEnEdStAr
- Start date
JMS talks about having to cut the scenes were Zathras is found under the conference room table, but this was done in the script, not in the editing room.
From the way he talks, I think JMS and the preproduction team had a very good idea of exactly how long everything was going to take before shooting even began. I don't recall him talking about shot scenes that had to be cut - which is probably the norm in the TV industry, where the time allowed is firmly fixed. In movies you see more shot scenes cut from the release because there is no fixed time limit to the flick, and so there are more judgement calls needed on the scenes that are "on the cusp." the movie cannot be TOO long but it also cannot be too disjointed.
From the way he talks, I think JMS and the preproduction team had a very good idea of exactly how long everything was going to take before shooting even began. I don't recall him talking about shot scenes that had to be cut - which is probably the norm in the TV industry, where the time allowed is firmly fixed. In movies you see more shot scenes cut from the release because there is no fixed time limit to the flick, and so there are more judgement calls needed on the scenes that are "on the cusp." the movie cannot be TOO long but it also cannot be too disjointed.
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
Grumbler is right - The scene where Zathras is discovered doesn't match the Major's description of the event in "Babylon Squared" because doing it that way would have required an extra two or three minutes of story time that JMS just didn't have. A B5 episode had to come in at something like 43 minutes for broadcast*, no more, no less. So every minute added to one scene was a minute that had to be cut from another or from several others. So JMS wrote a scene that fudged how Zathras was discovered in a few seconds and pressed on from there.
Most TV shows try very hard to have their scripts time out to just what they need to be before the cameras roll - if only to save money by not shooting stuff they'll never use. But it is hard to get that exact. You can easily time out the dialogue and simple movements like crossing a room by having people read the script and mime the action and by using the old "one page of script equals one minute of film" rule. But a fight scene or a space battle may only occupy a single paragraph of description in the script, while taking four or five minutes on screen. So bits and pieces do tend to get trimmed.
On B5 whole scenes almost never got cut due to time constraints. JMS has described cutting a few seconds here and a few seconds there, often as much to tighten up a show dramatically, and one or two instances where a scene from an episode that was coming in long was transplanted to another episode that was coming in short (which also sometimes happens.) That's not an option for most TV shows, since they don't tell continuing stories.
So I don't think there is going to be a lot of deleted footage on the S5 set, for instance, because I don't think there's a lot to choose from that would be worth watching. (Four seconds cut from an Ivanova reaction shot probably won't mean much out of context.
)
Regards,
Joe
* In NTSC. The episodes are slightly shorter in PAL, even when uncut, because of the speed-up inherent in 24 frames per second film to 25 frames per second video.
Most TV shows try very hard to have their scripts time out to just what they need to be before the cameras roll - if only to save money by not shooting stuff they'll never use. But it is hard to get that exact. You can easily time out the dialogue and simple movements like crossing a room by having people read the script and mime the action and by using the old "one page of script equals one minute of film" rule. But a fight scene or a space battle may only occupy a single paragraph of description in the script, while taking four or five minutes on screen. So bits and pieces do tend to get trimmed.
On B5 whole scenes almost never got cut due to time constraints. JMS has described cutting a few seconds here and a few seconds there, often as much to tighten up a show dramatically, and one or two instances where a scene from an episode that was coming in long was transplanted to another episode that was coming in short (which also sometimes happens.) That's not an option for most TV shows, since they don't tell continuing stories.
So I don't think there is going to be a lot of deleted footage on the S5 set, for instance, because I don't think there's a lot to choose from that would be worth watching. (Four seconds cut from an Ivanova reaction shot probably won't mean much out of context.
) Regards,
Joe
* In NTSC. The episodes are slightly shorter in PAL, even when uncut, because of the speed-up inherent in 24 frames per second film to 25 frames per second video.
Flounder
Regular
NTSC and PAL episode length
When I freeze framed Sleeping in Light to see the crew pictures, some of the frames show two images on top of each other. I had to get stills from the net to see them all clearly.
Maybe this was a special case for titles. I expected that they could just use film and get NTSC and PAL versions with the same length.
You learn something every day.
Really? I thought they would combine 2 of the 25 frames into one, and end up with 24. How do they get the sound to match?
When I freeze framed Sleeping in Light to see the crew pictures, some of the frames show two images on top of each other. I had to get stills from the net to see them all clearly.
Maybe this was a special case for titles. I expected that they could just use film and get NTSC and PAL versions with the same length.
You learn something every day.
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
Re: NTSC and PAL episode length
The film the series is shot on runs at 24 frames per second - one frame fewer that the 25 fps of PAL video. So the solution you suggest doesn't apply. For 30 fps NTSC film-to-video transfers they do repeat film frames, but the sound film and PAL video rates are too close to make this possible. So when doing the transfers, they simply project the sound film at 25 frams per second.
See above. By running the film at 25 fps one frame of film is transferred to one frame of video, so synchronization is not a problem. Of course, since they're projecting the film too fast (projecting it faster than it was recorded), the pitch changes and everything sounds slightly off, voices, music, etc. are pitched higher than they should be. And the running times of films no longer match their theatrical or NTSC video times.
Regards,
Joe
The film the series is shot on runs at 24 frames per second - one frame fewer that the 25 fps of PAL video. So the solution you suggest doesn't apply. For 30 fps NTSC film-to-video transfers they do repeat film frames, but the sound film and PAL video rates are too close to make this possible. So when doing the transfers, they simply project the sound film at 25 frams per second.
See above. By running the film at 25 fps one frame of film is transferred to one frame of video, so synchronization is not a problem. Of course, since they're projecting the film too fast (projecting it faster than it was recorded), the pitch changes and everything sounds slightly off, voices, music, etc. are pitched higher than they should be. And the running times of films no longer match their theatrical or NTSC video times.
Regards,
Joe
Jade Jaguar
Regular
Re: NTSC and PAL episode length
Now days, the pitch can be corrected easily, electronically, and it almost always is.
Now days, the pitch can be corrected easily, electronically, and it almost always is.
Just thought of an example of filmed work getting cut (which undermines my earlier argument, but what the heck ): there is a "credited" Ranger (Glenn Martin) in "Interludes and Examinations." They had to credit the actor because they shot the scene, but the scene was then cut. Apparently, Martin played a Ranger who was trailing Morden and got taken out by the Shadows escorting Morden. Sounds kinda cool, too bad it couldn't have been kept.
): there is a "credited" Ranger (Glenn Martin) in "Interludes and Examinations." They had to credit the actor because they shot the scene, but the scene was then cut. Apparently, Martin played a Ranger who was trailing Morden and got taken out by the Shadows escorting Morden. Sounds kinda cool, too bad it couldn't have been kept.
GaribaldisHair
Regular
Joe,
It is always an education to read your commentaries on the more technical aspects of making a TV show - thanks once again.
Just for the record, in the UK B5 episodes are always stated to be 42 minutes in length, the missing minute presumably reflects (rounded accordingly) the effect the extra frame has on PAL systems.
Cheers,
It is always an education to read your commentaries on the more technical aspects of making a TV show - thanks once again.
Just for the record, in the UK B5 episodes are always stated to be 42 minutes in length, the missing minute presumably reflects (rounded accordingly) the effect the extra frame has on PAL systems.
Cheers,
iamsheridan
Member
So that's why the 42 (or 43) minute episodes are called one hour?!
/IamSheridan
A_M_Swallow
Regular
With help from 15 minutes worth of adverts.
So that's why the 42 (or 43) minute episodes are called one hour?!
/IamSheridan
Reminds me of a practical joke we played on one of our eighth grade classes about a week before we left on a trip to England. We convinced them that the british hour was only 45 minutes long, and that they had to buy British watch batteries at Heathrow to make sure their watches kept the correct time.
So that's why the 42 (or 43) minute episodes are called one hour?!
/IamSheridan
There were so many things that they were taking in that no one called "bullshit" on this for several days.Some of them actually still believed this by the time we landed, but we kept them from wasting their money.
phoenixrising
Regular
*tries to remember if I was that gullible at that age*
Er.........
No.
Er.........
No.
Jade Jaguar
Regular
I wouldn't have believed that for a second. Now, if you had said the the British used the Imperial Hour of 70 minutes, maybe...
phoenixrising
Regular
I wouldn't have believed that for a second. Now, if you had said the the British used the Imperial Hour of 70 minutes, maybe...
WTF?
A_M_Swallow
Regular
British and USA miles are different lengths.I wouldn't have believed that for a second. Now, if you had said the the British used the Imperial Hour of 70 minutes, maybe...
WTF?
British and USA gallons contain different amounts of liquid.
Unless you know the truth there is no reason to assume that time is the same.
Jade Jaguar
Regular
Thanks for explaining for me, A_M_S. I've always thought Imperial Gallons were sorta weird. But, anyone who knew anything about the measure of time would realize that the British have a corner on the market, what with the Greenwich Prime Meridian being accepted by everyone. Therefore, if there WERE "Imperial Hours," probably everyone would be using them! But, I have heard that the minutes are shorter in New York...
But, I have heard that the minutes are shorter in New York...