In season 2, episode: Divided Loyalties, Winters and Ivanova seem to get extra cozy with each other. Ivanova invites Winters to stay the night at her quarters, no big deal, except they sleep in the same bed. You don't actually see them together in the bed, but it's strongly hinted. Also later in the episode they get very close, face to face, during a discussion. There's just this weird sexual tension throughout the whole episode. So are they supposed to be lesbian lovers? After watching this episode I'd say yes. Am I wrong?
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Were Ivanova and Winters lovers?
- Thread starter oldpaddy
- Start date
If they were, JMS was kinda cowardly not to say it more explicitly in the show. The hetero relationships didn't get that treatment.
Kinda like the torture episode. If some retoric, starvation and destroyed reputation is the worst the fascist Earth could do, what a laughable dictatorship.
Kinda like the torture episode. If some retoric, starvation and destroyed reputation is the worst the fascist Earth could do, what a laughable dictatorship.
colonyearth
Regular
Actually, there is a strong indication that they were, in fact, falling in love.
They were clearly sleeping in the same bed and Ivanova's secret she tells Delenn is that she was in love with Talia.
Had she not left the show...who knows where this may have gone. Especially considering that it was originally supposed to be Ivanova that fell in love with Byron in S5.
CE
They were clearly sleeping in the same bed and Ivanova's secret she tells Delenn is that she was in love with Talia.
Had she not left the show...who knows where this may have gone. Especially considering that it was originally supposed to be Ivanova that fell in love with Byron in S5.
CE
Ninja_Squirrel
Regular
I'll be honest, I did not catch any sexual tension or strong relationship potential the first time around at all. Upon seeing the episode multiple times, I can see minor hints at the possibility that they were "together" or getting close to that point. But I think any indications of Susan and Talia becoming close "in that way" is weak (not non-existent, just weak) and open to interpretation.
Maybe we're just used to seeing emotions and relationships being played out more blatantly on television. If JMS unmistakenly intended for Susan and Talia to be lovers, it feels somewhat unorthodox for such a thing to be handled in such a subtle way.
Maybe we're just used to seeing emotions and relationships being played out more blatantly on television. If JMS unmistakenly intended for Susan and Talia to be lovers, it feels somewhat unorthodox for such a thing to be handled in such a subtle way.
hypatia
Regular
Were they lovers? Yes. There is no doubt about it, JMS stated very clearly that they were. Yes, they were lovers, then "get over it" or something is all I remember of his comment.
From what I understand there might be some footage that was taken out for American audiences that might have been seen by British audiences. I'm not clear on that, but a friend of mine told me this.
And references to it are clear, if you know what to look for. JMS didn't hide this at all, he just didn't push it into your face.
(This reminds me of an amazing moment. I was watching a tape of "Four Weddings and a Funeral" or whatever that movie was, when the husband of my my friend suddenly asked "are those two characters brothers?"
Uh, they were gay lovers. Somehow it was very obvious to me, but he hadn't a clue.)
I guess it's all what you are trained to see.
From what I understand there might be some footage that was taken out for American audiences that might have been seen by British audiences. I'm not clear on that, but a friend of mine told me this.
And references to it are clear, if you know what to look for. JMS didn't hide this at all, he just didn't push it into your face.
(This reminds me of an amazing moment. I was watching a tape of "Four Weddings and a Funeral" or whatever that movie was, when the husband of my my friend suddenly asked "are those two characters brothers?"
Uh, they were gay lovers. Somehow it was very obvious to me, but he hadn't a clue.)
I guess it's all what you are trained to see.
phoenixrising
Regular
Look at it this way: JMS fought an up-hill battle every year to get B5 renewed for the next season. In this battlefield, he is going to throw in the fact that the second-billed character is bi-sexual (Ivanova was shown to have had a male lover in her past). He wouldn't bow to network presure, but even he would not be foolhardy enough to risk his show on a plot point that going to die when one of the characters went away.
He showed enough and everyone that watched the whole series got the point.
He showed enough and everyone that watched the whole series got the point.
Za_Ha_Dum
Regular
Yes. For sure Susan and Talia became close enough. We do not actually explicit sex, but sure they did. But what is the point?
JMS never wanted to have sex and violence in this show. Actually it was avoided, since the story is reach enough. JMS did not need to explore what 99% of TV and movies use to conquer viewers.
Besides, as Joe De Martino said once, in that context, in 2260 it will not be a big deal have a homosexual relationship. Society will see this situation as something natural.
Joe De Martino.....You disapear
JMS never wanted to have sex and violence in this show. Actually it was avoided, since the story is reach enough. JMS did not need to explore what 99% of TV and movies use to conquer viewers.
Besides, as Joe De Martino said once, in that context, in 2260 it will not be a big deal have a homosexual relationship. Society will see this situation as something natural.
Joe De Martino.....You disapear
PillowRock
Regular
I thought that it was was pretty clear, moreso than the Xena / Gabrielle stuff that I have seen (though I haven't seen anything like every episode of that series).
The only thing that wasn't clear was whether that last episode was the first time that Susan and Talia had actually slept together.
No, I don't think that one took any training. It was obvious, and clearly stated at least once or twice.(This reminds me of an amazing moment. I was watching a tape of "Four Weddings and a Funeral" or whatever that movie was, when the husband of my my friend suddenly asked "are those two characters brothers?"
Uh, they were gay lovers. Somehow it was very obvious to me, but he hadn't a clue.)
I guess it's all what you are trained to see.
I think that not seeing that one requires a great deal of training in willfully ignoring the obvious.
colonyearth
Regular
It was clear that JMS foresaw a future in which being gay and having gay couples would not be any big deal in society. A future where people have gotten over their phobias of gays and lesbians and realized that they weren't going to cause the downfall of humanity (like people ignorantly believe today).
Not only was there the Susan/Talia relationship, there were the undercover identities of Marcus and Stephen as a newly married gay couple on their honeymoon to Mars. No one thought twice about a gay couple, newly married going to Mars for their honeymoon.
There is a moment when Talia reaches up and touches Susan's hair...when it appears they are about to kiss, but they don't. I've often wondered if it was originally planned for them to and they either cut it out of the scene or one of the actresses had issues with it.
If the latter were the case, I would personally conclude that Andrea was the one with the issues. I've also wondered from time to time if that was one of the reasons she left the show, because JMS was writing in a gay relationship for her and Susan and she wasn't comfortable with it.
Who knows....I suppose JMS does.
CE
Not only was there the Susan/Talia relationship, there were the undercover identities of Marcus and Stephen as a newly married gay couple on their honeymoon to Mars. No one thought twice about a gay couple, newly married going to Mars for their honeymoon.
There is a moment when Talia reaches up and touches Susan's hair...when it appears they are about to kiss, but they don't. I've often wondered if it was originally planned for them to and they either cut it out of the scene or one of the actresses had issues with it.
If the latter were the case, I would personally conclude that Andrea was the one with the issues. I've also wondered from time to time if that was one of the reasons she left the show, because JMS was writing in a gay relationship for her and Susan and she wasn't comfortable with it.
Who knows....I suppose JMS does.
CE
B5_Obsessed
Regular
Yeah baby! She shagged her rotten!
A_M_Swallow
Regular
During Season 2 Andrea (Talia) Thompson and Jerry (Garibaldi) Doyle married. She got pregnant - by another man. He divorced her. Since they do not like being in the same room as each other, you do not need complex theories to explain why she left the show.
A_M_Swallow
Regular
JMS claims that there was never a kiss in the script. Both actresses have admitted that they entertained the crew by putting on a lesbian display off camera that day.
The other way to view that scene is that Talia was surface scanning Susan to find where Lyta was being held.
Jan
Regular
From the Lurker's Guide:
<<Was a kiss between Ivanova and Talia edited out?
Nope, no such scene was cut. It's just a slightly awkward match in the edited shots. >>
<<No, nothing was cut; we had a matching problem at one point in the edit, where Andrea reached with her left hand in one angle, and didn't reach out with the other, and we had to come around for the shot on Ivanova, so it looked a tick off. But nothing was cut. >>
Anyway, it's not in the script. So I'd say we do know.
Jan
colonyearth
Regular
Ok...ok! I was unaware of any definative revelations regarding said moment. Thank you for the enlightenment.
I was merely "thinking out loud" as it were on thoughts I'd had in the past.
I also was unaware of the Andrea/Jerry situation...again, thank you for the enlightenment.
Regardless of any of it...the two characters were supposed to be lovers -- at least of a sort.
The main point I was attempting to make remains.
CE
I was merely "thinking out loud" as it were on thoughts I'd had in the past.
I also was unaware of the Andrea/Jerry situation...again, thank you for the enlightenment.
Regardless of any of it...the two characters were supposed to be lovers -- at least of a sort.
The main point I was attempting to make remains.
CE
A_M_Swallow
Regular
If Andrea Thompson had stayed it would probably have been a very interesting third year.
