Who destroyed Babylon 1, 2 and 3?

[GenevaRanger]

I just watched War without end I & II and it made me wonder about this. The Shadows tried to destroy/sabotage Babylon 4. Might they also be responsible for one (or all) of the previous Babylon stations? In the episode, Ivanova literally says that the Shadows are trying to sabotage the station. What do you think?

By the way, I really love this Valen-Sinclair-Minbari souls arc. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

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[GaribaldisHair]

Might they also be responsible for one (or all) of the previous Babylon stations?

I don't think so. In WWEI, Delenn says that the Shadows are planning to destroy B4 because they ... recognise it for what it was", i.e. the base from which Valen led the Minbari and others to victory in the last shadow war.

As the stations were all different designs and colours it seems logical that that would not have been an issue for them with B1, 2 and 3.

Besides the first 3 were all destroyed before completion. Why wait until B4 was on the point of becoming operational, when they had managed to destroy the less important ones long before that point was reached?

In addition (IIRC) the first three stations were said to have been sabotaged and destroyed. Detonating a fusion bomb close enough to destroy the station doesn't sound like sabotage to me.

This one shows a completely different MO, and it seems odd that they would choose such a different approach this time around when the first 3 were an unqualified success.

I have always thought it most likely that the first 3 stations were sabotaged by the Home Guard movement intent on preventing Earth from (as they saw) getting into bed with all these aliens.

Of course, I am only speculating. Feel free to shoot me down.

/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Kribu]

Maybe they were sabotaged by the Minbari? Or Vorlons? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[GenevaRanger]

Good points! Thank you! Is there any other reference to this issue in the series or the television movies? As far as I remember, the only episodes that mention this are WWE, Babylon Squared and the one with Jinxo (where he has the 'babylon curse')...

If it is not the Shadows, I think it will be the humans that destroyed the previous stations. However, was Homeguard already that strong at the time?

 

[Kitaro]

I don't think the show points to this anywhere but it could be.
Look what the terror fuction can do today with will-power and money (though money is not always needed).

Homegurd is a global momvment so it is far more powerful then the terror faction we have here today.

 

[Kribu]

Homeguard's a nice possibility. I still kind of like my Minbari/Vorlon idea though. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I mean... who had to make sure that the first stations did not become operational and that Babylon 4 had to be built?

 

[Nancy]

Good point Kribu, I hadn't thought of that. But the homeguard theory works also.

 

[GenevaRanger]

But why not use directly Babylon 1 instead of destroying 3 stations to get babylon 4? Oh of course! That is because they already knew from the past that they were going to use babylon 4 /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

As G'Kar already said: since time and space are curved, the infinity will eventually turn on itself /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

[Kribu]

Yep... they knew it had to be the green one, since the green one had been used before, so they didn't like the three first ones. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[B5_Obsessed]

All the other stations were destroyed early on in their construction, presumably from sabotage from those nasty Earth separatist groups like Homeguard who did not like the idea one bit.

Each successive station was started using allocated budget and unused materials from the previous ones. Babylon 4 was the biggest financial disaster because it was the most ambitious and expensive station. It was fully complete when it disappeared so they lost everything they put into it. As a result, Babylon 5 was the cheapest of the Babylon stations (that would've been funny for Sinclair to say in the intro /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif)

 

[RW7427]

I highly doubt the destruction of the first 3 stations was of alien origin. I think it was a radical group like Homeguard that was anti-alien in nature and that didn't want such a place where they could come in such close contact with humans.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

JMS has said that the first three stations were destroyed by different groups who were opposed to the whole concept of the Babylon Project. Since the stations were built by Earth, and all were destroyed by sabotage, chances are that Humans were responsible, since few if any aliens would have been involved in the construction. However, it seems unlikely (to me) that the Homeguard in particular had anything to do with the destruction of the first three stations. Internal evidence from the series would seem to indicate that there wasn't a great deal of alien immigration to Earth prior to the Earth-Minbar War, therefore little alien "influence" to protest. While Earth emerged as an important power in the wake of the Dilgar invasion, it wasn't considered a major power until it "won" the Earth-Minbar War when the Minbari surrendered. It was only at that point that other races really began to see an advantage in establishing serious trade and political ties to Earth, which led to an influx of aliens to the planet and the resentments that created groups like the Homeguard.

Also, in S1 the Homeguard seems to be a relatively new group, unlikely to have already committed major terrorist acts starting almost 10 years earlier. And since terrorists like to claim credit for what they do (that's most of the point of committing terrorism) everyone would know they'd been responsible. It is very unlikely that Garibaldi and Sinclair would have taken such a low-key, criminal-investigation-as-usual approach to a possible Homeguard presence on B5 if the group was known to have been involved in the destruction of 3 of the previous Babylon Stations.

The FBI used to pursue terrorist investigations as essentially criminal cases - witness the first World Trade Center bombing. After September 11th, they changed their approach. The Babylon Project essentially suffered 3 WTC attacks in a row (although with fewer casualties since only construction personnel would have been aboard.) If we built a new WTC on the site of the old and a suspected Al Qaeda member was thought to be running around the place stabbing people, how do you think U.S. law enforcement would react? I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be by assigning a couple of regular NYPD homicide cops to the case - and that, essentially, is what Sinclair and Garibaldi do in "The War Prayer".

So I'm very dubious about any Homeguard involvement in the destruction of The Babylon Station, B2 or B3.

Regards,

Joe

 

[FlipperPA]

They also show it at the end of the In the Beginning, an earlier (red if remember) Babylon station being blown up, with the Londo voiceover something to the effect of, "And, as will all things, it tooks them a little while to get it right... but that is another story."

 

[whitestar90]

Shadows were not involved in the destruction of the first 3 stations as they only knew of B4 but wouldn't know its name until it was nearly complete.The first were destroyed either by faulty equipment or sabotaged.

 

[dragon69]

It's an interesting theory regarding Vorlon/Shadow involvement in the destruction of the first three stations with the whole time-loop thing. The argument that the Vorlons knew it was B4 that was sent back in time is an obvious statement of fact, however, the whole time-travel confusion almost insists that it had to be B4 that went back through time. Well, who says it had to be? Destiny can change as do possible futures (hence the alternative view of the destruction of B5). So why could it not have been B1 sent back through time and assisted the Vorlons/Minbari against the shadows, and B2 used to to tackle the shadow war in the future?

This ties neatly into the thread titled 'Babylon Squared' where I questioned Sinclair not being in command of B4. Some people stated that this maybe because it was still during it's contruction and therefore needed a skeleton security crew to oversee it (bearing in mind the demise of the previous three). Others suggested that Sinclair was chosen by the Minbari because they were a major financial contributor to the B5 project since Earth had run out of money (read: previous four stations), and were therefore in a position to cast final decision over who ran it.

It is my theory therefore that the first three stations had to be destroyed for the whole time-loop twist to be possible, by allowing Earth resources to be drained. In turn, B4, the final solely Earth funded Babylon Project, could be 'taken' by 'Valen' to assist the Vorlons 1000 years prior, leaving the minbari in a position to control who commanded the fifth station. They would keep an eye on the furture Valen, whilst establishing a relationship with the Great Machine responsible for allowing the time travel in the first place, and positioning themselves such that they could control who went back in time, how they would do it, and who would replace this great person to fight the war of the furture.

In conclusion, I suspect that one of the sabotages was conducted by the Vorlons or Minbari in order to fulfil destiny.

 

[REDBAZ]

Hello there.
Funnily enough, the fan comic my friend and I are developing focuses on the mystery of B3, and why/how it was destroyed, using our own speculation. Following a Minbari Ranger Kelarr, who finds out that a breakaway clan is more committed than most to the fulfillment of prophecy. At the end of the story they allow the Ranger to die alone, fighting shadow agents on board B3 as it explodes, in order for B4 to be built. Their reasoning is that it has already happened, they are merely following destiny. The construction of B4 must happen if the Great War against the Shadows is to be won. (Remember B4 was the biggest of all the stations, and it had ion engines.)

 

[A_M_Swallow]

The other reason that Babylons 1 to 3 had to be destroyed was to get them fitted with weapons. Babylon 1 was basically unarmed. Babylon 4 is a war ship. Babylon 5 is a heavily armed military base.

 

[KoshFan]

I had a theory not too long ago about why the Babylon stations were built... and rebuilt... and rebuilt, which ties in nicely here.

The Earth-Minbari War took down most of the Human fleet. There were, what, a few hundred survivors? Including those taken aboard by the Minbari. There were a few ships which missed the fight, such as Sheridan's Lexington, but even still, Earth was pretty much a sitting duck. Now, they hadn't lost their colonies, so they could rebuild, but it would take time and money. I think that B1 was built in large part as a defense mechanism. Build one station with the diplomatic potential to defuse any war you're about to get sucked into rather than build an entire fleet. Makes sense. So B1 gets blown up, but the Humans still haven't reassembled the fleet... hence B2. And probably B3. Furthermore, because the stations weren't complete, some money could carry over from one to the next.

By the time of B4, the mission had changed. B1 was unarmed, someone said -- not sure where they got that, but it makes sense (and fits with my theory /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif). B4 was a military station. The fleet was back on line, so B4 was more of a military base for the fleet than anything else, although the diplomatic mission was still pretty strong. Hence the big guns.

B4 vamooses for parts and times unknown, and the Babylon Project loses steam. They've thrown money at it and watched it go up in smoke. The station was complete, so the budget no longer has the carry-over that helped them before. Finally, the Omega-class ships are now available in large numbers, so the mission of protecting Earth now goes back to where it was to begin with. The diplomatic mission no longer falls under "vital for planetary security," because EarthForce is fully operational and a major power.

Santiago wants to keep the project going, but EarthForce will no longer support him and the money's all gone. Enter the Minbari, who have plans of their own.

A bit off topic, I realize, but it has some pertinence, and I spent a lot of time thinking about it so I wanted to get the idea out.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Finally, the Omega-class ships are now available in large numbers, so the mission of protecting Earth now goes back to where it was to begin with...

So Earth built a giant spacestation out in the middle of neutral territory in order to - defend Earth? Isn't that a little bit like Elizabeth I building a giant fort in the Orkneys, rather than ships, to defend England against the Armada?

I also don't buy the notion that the Shadows and/or the Vorlons had anything to do with what happened to the first three stations, even simply on story grounds. (And ignoring the fact that JMS has already said that they were blown up by regular folks who disliked the whole idea of the Babylon Project.) As noted, nobody realized that the mysterious station that appeared circa 1260 C.E. a) came from the future, b) was built by a race called Humans or c) was a Babylon station. (Except the Vorlons, and they only knew because Sinclair told them.) None of the earlier stations came close enough to completion for the Shadows or their agents to recognize it for what it was. And nobody had bothered penetrating the Babylon Project to the extent of getting hold of the plans, because nobody had any reason to believe it was that important. (Even the Minbari, who were helping to pay for the thing, hadn't seen a picture of the place before Delenn arrived at B5.) It was only after B4 was finished that the Shadows understood what it was.

Yes, the Vorlons understood that B4 was necessary, and that therefore the first 3 would have to be built and destroyed, but they had no reason to suppose that those things wouldn't simply happen. Sinclair had already told them that they had. The Vorlons, if anything, were working hard to make sure that nothing strange happened (including as a result of their own foreknowledge) that would change the future.

The notion that they somehow had to be actively involved doesn't hold up to scrutiny. If they "had" to destroy the first three stations, did they also "have" to arrange for Sinclair's father to meet his mother? How minutely do the Vorlons have to be involved for things to turn out they way they did. Was a cloaked Vorlon cruiser following Sinclair (and Sheridan) around through all the battles prior to The Line to make sure they weren't accidentally killed? Did the Vorlons protect them from childhood from disease, accident and natural disaster? Exactly how omnipotent do you want the Vorlons to be? Surely Sinclair and Sheridan were at least as vital to their plans as the Babylon Stations? Does that mean the Vorlons must have "created" them, too?

Regards,

Joe

 

[A_M_Swallow]

SPOILERS - Telepath Book.

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{snip} Surely Sinclair and Sheridan were at least as vital to their plans as the Babylon Stations? Does that mean the Vorlons must have "created" them, too?

The Psi Corps breading programme may be a sign that the Vorlons believe in selective breading. Does Psi Corps or the Vorlons they have secret stud books on mundanes called Sinclair and Sheridan? According to the first telepath book a Vorlon died on Earth and a second one hid on Venus for many years. It did not take long to create the Telepaths, so what were the Vorlons doing? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

How big was the conspiracy the Vorlons were running?