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Why was Cusade so hated?
- Thread starter Elizar
- Start date
Ninja_Squirrel
Regular
You're right. It wasn't as good as B5. Since B5 was the start of the franchise, it may always be the best incarnation of itself.
However, most shows need a while to get really good. The few shows that may be really good in their first season may "shoot their wad" and not have anything good left for future seasons (Dark Angel is kind of an example, and I can't help but worry that Alias may end up with this problem too). So, Crusade just needed a chance to finish out at least a full season to fully develop itself. Who knows; it may have even turned out better than B5 by it's 3rd or 4th season.
Of course, there was one unique circumstance in Crusade's case which was the interference from TNT. Crusade probably would have been much better than it was had JMS been able to make the way he wanted to. That's really the beginning of the problems.
------------------
An Old Egyptian Blessing: May God stand between you and harm in all the empty places that you must walk.
Thoughts & prayers to soldiers fighting overseas and to their families.
[This message has been edited by Ninja_Squirrel (edited December 15, 2001).]
However, most shows need a while to get really good. The few shows that may be really good in their first season may "shoot their wad" and not have anything good left for future seasons (Dark Angel is kind of an example, and I can't help but worry that Alias may end up with this problem too). So, Crusade just needed a chance to finish out at least a full season to fully develop itself. Who knows; it may have even turned out better than B5 by it's 3rd or 4th season.
Of course, there was one unique circumstance in Crusade's case which was the interference from TNT. Crusade probably would have been much better than it was had JMS been able to make the way he wanted to. That's really the beginning of the problems.
------------------
An Old Egyptian Blessing: May God stand between you and harm in all the empty places that you must walk.
Thoughts & prayers to soldiers fighting overseas and to their families.
[This message has been edited by Ninja_Squirrel (edited December 15, 2001).]
Well, I'd think some saw War Zone and either gave up on the show immediately, or let it colour their opinion of the rest of the show.
As for the rest... Different strokes I guess.
------------------
"I know how you're feeling... You don't know whether to kiss me or kill me."
"I'm a black widow spider you idiot - I can do both." (hear it)
-- Silverbolt & Blackarachnia, "The Agenda, part 2", Beast Wars
drakh@spamcop.net
As for the rest... Different strokes I guess.
------------------
"I know how you're feeling... You don't know whether to kiss me or kill me."
"I'm a black widow spider you idiot - I can do both." (hear it)
-- Silverbolt & Blackarachnia, "The Agenda, part 2", Beast Wars
drakh@spamcop.net
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
Hello, this is my first posting for me (I've only just found this site).
For me, there are several reasons why Crusade failed.
(1) The music (poor doesn't begin to do justice). The rot started in A Call To Arms. (Here in the UK, an advert was shown for A Call To Arms on (get a load of this)...The Call To Arms video but featured a Christopher Franke soundtrack..The scenes shown in the advert were much much better than the identical scenes (bar the music) in the actual tele movie.
(2) The characters seemed to have zero emotional impact..I mean,come on, the fate of the Earth rested on their shoulders and they treated the whole thing like a boy scout party (BTW, this is not an attack on the actors).
(3) The effects, with one or two notable exceptions were simply not of the same calibre as B5.
(4) The Drahk just aren't the Shadows.
I know it's hard to judge a program after only 13 episodes but it didn't take me that long to really start enjoying b5.
------------------
For me, there are several reasons why Crusade failed.
(1) The music (poor doesn't begin to do justice). The rot started in A Call To Arms. (Here in the UK, an advert was shown for A Call To Arms on (get a load of this)...The Call To Arms video but featured a Christopher Franke soundtrack..The scenes shown in the advert were much much better than the identical scenes (bar the music) in the actual tele movie.
(2) The characters seemed to have zero emotional impact..I mean,come on, the fate of the Earth rested on their shoulders and they treated the whole thing like a boy scout party (BTW, this is not an attack on the actors).
(3) The effects, with one or two notable exceptions were simply not of the same calibre as B5.
(4) The Drahk just aren't the Shadows.
I know it's hard to judge a program after only 13 episodes but it didn't take me that long to really start enjoying b5.
------------------
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
Sorry, should have been Drakh not Drahk...don't flame me, i'm tired.
Though much is take,much abides.
and though we are not now that strength
which in old days moved Earth and Heaven
that which we are
we are.
One equal temper of heroic hearts
made weak by time and fate
but strong in will to strife,
to seek, to find
and not to yieldabides.
------------------
Though much is take,much abides.
and though we are not now that strength
which in old days moved Earth and Heaven
that which we are
we are.
One equal temper of heroic hearts
made weak by time and fate
but strong in will to strife,
to seek, to find
and not to yieldabides.
------------------
Technomage Roanna
Regular
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Elizar:
Have you read any of the Passing of the Techno-mages books? They tell a lot more about some of the flash-backs from Crusade.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, which makes me wonder about your choice of nick.
I'll be keeping my probe's eye on you...
Ro
*actually, welcome to the board. It's a fun place to be.
------------------
A ship in a port is safe, but that's not what ships are for.
Rear Admiral Grace Murray Hopper
Have you read any of the Passing of the Techno-mages books? They tell a lot more about some of the flash-backs from Crusade.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, which makes me wonder about your choice of nick.
I'll be keeping my probe's eye on you...
Ro
*actually, welcome to the board. It's a fun place to be.
------------------
A ship in a port is safe, but that's not what ships are for.
Rear Admiral Grace Murray Hopper
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Shadow War:
(1) The music (poor doesn't begin to do justice).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Guess I have different tasts then. While Chen clearly wasn't as experienced as Franke, there were several places I absolutely loved his score (The entire teaser in War Zone - especially when they're viewing the carnage, and the destruction of the Cerberus for example). <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>(2) The characters seemed to have zero emotional impact..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The character development was weakened by the TNT airing order. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>I mean,come on, the fate of the Earth rested on their shoulders and they treated the whole thing like a boy scout party<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>WE ONLY HAVE 4 YEARS AND 340 DAYS LEFT!!!!!!!! AIEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!! THEY'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!!!!! <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>(3) The effects, with one or two notable exceptions were simply not of the same calibre as B5.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I can dig up a link to my own episode for episode comments of Crusade's effects if your interested. Suffice to say, that the effects were pretty darn good given the more abitious show format until TNT got involved in the production. Starting with War Zone (production order), there is a massive drop in FX quality, from which the show didn't have time to recover. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>(4) The Drahk just aren't the Shadows.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Oh, yee of little faith... Did B5 teach you nothing? The Drakh were no more the "main villains" of Crusade than the Narn were in B5.
------------------
"I know how you're feeling... You don't know whether to kiss me or kill me."
"I'm a black widow spider you idiot - I can do both." (hear it)
-- Silverbolt & Blackarachnia, "The Agenda, part 2", Beast Wars
drakh@spamcop.net
[This message has been edited by drakh (edited December 15, 2001).]
(1) The music (poor doesn't begin to do justice).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Guess I have different tasts then. While Chen clearly wasn't as experienced as Franke, there were several places I absolutely loved his score (The entire teaser in War Zone - especially when they're viewing the carnage, and the destruction of the Cerberus for example). <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>(2) The characters seemed to have zero emotional impact..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The character development was weakened by the TNT airing order. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>I mean,come on, the fate of the Earth rested on their shoulders and they treated the whole thing like a boy scout party<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>WE ONLY HAVE 4 YEARS AND 340 DAYS LEFT!!!!!!!! AIEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!! THEY'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!!!!! <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>(3) The effects, with one or two notable exceptions were simply not of the same calibre as B5.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I can dig up a link to my own episode for episode comments of Crusade's effects if your interested. Suffice to say, that the effects were pretty darn good given the more abitious show format until TNT got involved in the production. Starting with War Zone (production order), there is a massive drop in FX quality, from which the show didn't have time to recover. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>(4) The Drahk just aren't the Shadows.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Oh, yee of little faith... Did B5 teach you nothing? The Drakh were no more the "main villains" of Crusade than the Narn were in B5.
------------------
"I know how you're feeling... You don't know whether to kiss me or kill me."
"I'm a black widow spider you idiot - I can do both." (hear it)
-- Silverbolt & Blackarachnia, "The Agenda, part 2", Beast Wars
drakh@spamcop.net
[This message has been edited by drakh (edited December 15, 2001).]
Yes, I have read the unfilmed scripts. They were killers. What we saw were the set up episodes. Not only were they the more stand-alone episodes that always begin a B5 season allowing new viewers to get into the show without feeling overwhelmed by their lack of knowledge of the backstory but they were also the episodes that had to set up the series.
Personally I am very middle of the road on Chen but I do remember that in early season one I thought Franke kinda bit. Often time he seemed to be throwing random sounds in at inappropriate times. Even now at times when I watch season one I feel like yelling at him to stop banging on the freakin' keyboard/synthesizer. Chen had a realitively unique style that he was learning to meld with the show and probably would have eventually grew even on people who say it was a reason the show failed.
The Crusade effects were better than B5 effects. Since Crusade used cgi more extensively in order to simulate planetary environments it is more noticeable.
Constant panic does no one any good. The human mind tends to focus on everyday life in order to function. It was realistic.
------------------
"Crying isn't gonna get your dog back. Unless your tears smell like dog food. So you can sit here eating can after can of dog food until your tears smell like dog food or you can go out there and find your dog."-Homer in The Canine Mutiny
Personally I am very middle of the road on Chen but I do remember that in early season one I thought Franke kinda bit. Often time he seemed to be throwing random sounds in at inappropriate times. Even now at times when I watch season one I feel like yelling at him to stop banging on the freakin' keyboard/synthesizer. Chen had a realitively unique style that he was learning to meld with the show and probably would have eventually grew even on people who say it was a reason the show failed.
The Crusade effects were better than B5 effects. Since Crusade used cgi more extensively in order to simulate planetary environments it is more noticeable.
Constant panic does no one any good. The human mind tends to focus on everyday life in order to function. It was realistic.
------------------
"Crying isn't gonna get your dog back. Unless your tears smell like dog food. So you can sit here eating can after can of dog food until your tears smell like dog food or you can go out there and find your dog."-Homer in The Canine Mutiny
KoshN
Super Moderator
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Elizar:
Crusade is still a great edition to the B5 Universe
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Definitely! If it wasn't, I wouldn't have bothered to record it on Master Quality SVHS Tapes in SP.
------------------
KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire
"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 19, 2002 at 9PM & 11PM EST, January 20, 2002 at 5PM on The Sci-Fi Channel (US).
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/
Crusade is still a great edition to the B5 Universe
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Definitely! If it wasn't, I wouldn't have bothered to record it on Master Quality SVHS Tapes in SP.
------------------
KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire
"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 19, 2002 at 9PM & 11PM EST, January 20, 2002 at 5PM on The Sci-Fi Channel (US).
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/
KoshN
Super Moderator
Why was Crusade so hated?
Well, I didn't "hate" it, but here are some reasons why some people might have hated it, or just not been interested in it.
1. When originally shown on TNT, it was shown out of order. There were a number of things that stood out like sore thumbs (e.g. the uniforms issue), and didn't make sense (e.g. They used the virus screen in Patterns of the Soul, that they discovered in The Memory of War, 5 episodes later.). Lines were looped to minimize this for the TNT order, but Crusade still falls flat when shown in the TNT order.
TNT Order:
War Zone
The Long Road
The Well of Forever
The Path of Sorrows
Patterns of the Soul
Ruling from the Tomb
The Rules of the Game
Appearances and Other Deceits
Racing the Night
The Memory of War
The Needs of Earth
Visitors from Down the Street
Each Night I Dream of Home
2. There were only 13 episodes filmed, and these were not meant to be shown back-to-back. 10 other episodes were supposed to be interlaced between some of the existing 12 episodes, but these 10 episodes were never filmed. (22-12=10. "War Zone" was redundant, caused continuity errors, and was never supposed to exist, but was demanded by TNT.)
3. TNT tried to screw with virtually every aspect of the story, and tried to prevent the first five episodes produced, from being completed.
101 The Needs of Earth
102 The Memory of War
103 Racing the Night
104 Visitors from Down the Street
105 Each Night I Dream of Home
4. When shown later, on Sci-Fi, in a more correct order, the lines that were looped to make better sense of the TNT order, now make the Sci-Fi order look incorrect. There is no absolutely correct order in which to watch the existing 13 episodes.
5. There are a few errors that will always sneak through because nobody's perfect (and neither an I, so I'm undoubtedly missing some):
Racing the Night:
When they first go down to the planet, why aren't they in anti-contamination suits? They don't know until "Each Night I Dream of Home" (which was the last episode shown on TNT) exactly how the virus enters the body. They suspect it is airborne. Given that the virus is nanotech, it could have been reawakened when they touched down on the planet (like the technomage nanotech virus in "The Memory of War"). The aliens, by trying to not let any ship leave, were essentially quarantining their planet, which makes sense.
Why doesn't the Excalibur noticeably accelerate toward the planet when they quit resisting with their engines (when they divert almost all power to the main gun)? The planet must have cut off the "enhanced gravity field" the very instant the ship quit resisting, but why? And why wasn't this mentioned by Matheson? Even when resisting with the engines at max. power, they were being pulled down to the planet, so it's not like the "enhanced gravity field" was just trying to keep them stationary, just pulling when they were trying to leave.
The Memory of War:
When Galen is holding the probe and saying that it just made a dent in his ship, why do we not see Galen from the probe's POV? Well, when Gideon told Matheson to "Show me (what the probe was reading).", maybe Galen sent his communications A/V signal to the probe and prevented it from seeing anything else (e.g the inside of his ship).
.
.
.
.
When I first saw Crusade on TNT (and I saw & taped all the episodes), a few of the episodes seemed, well, empty, lacking content and/or needed a follow-up episode (e.g. The Well of Forever, Ruling from the Tomb, The Rules of the Game, The Needs of Earth). Some also seemed to be lacking a sense of urgency. Granted, you can't keep up a sustained sense of urgency and stress, 24/7, but in some episodes (e.g. The Well of Forever, Visitors from Down the Street) seemed like they'd temporarily forgotten their mission. Unless the people who instigated these divergences from their mission know of some short cuts to the goal, and just aren't telling anybody, they are neglecting their core mission by going on these side tracks.
Appearances and Other Deceits originally seemed to be lacking a sense of the mission when Gideon brought up the self-destruct order. "If we can't figure a way out of this, we'll have to pull out Plan B. We can't afford to let these things get to an inhabited planet. If we can't stop them, if it looks like they're going to gain control of the ship, I'm authorizing self-destruct. One way or another, this ends here." Later, I realized the weight of what Gideon was saying. He was sacrificing what was probably Earth's best chance (the Excalibur, her crew, and the mission), to save all other worlds that these aliens might contact. Some must be sacrificed, so that all could be saved.
After viewing the Crusade episodes in JMS/Sci-Fi's order, they make more sense (ignoring the uniforms issue). After viewing each episode more than once, I can also appreciate the finer points, things you don't see on a first viewing.
At this point in time, I'd love nothing more than to have Crusade back, with new episodes being filmed to put right all (or most of) the TNT wrongs. This doesn't mean that I don't want Rangers, because I do. I just hate to see Crusade left in it's current condition. I feel about TNT's treatment of Crusade, the way Kosh Naranek felt about the maelstrom and Morden.
------------------
KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire
"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 19, 2002 at 9PM & 11PM EST, January 20, 2002 at 5PM on The Sci-Fi Channel (US). http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/
[This message has been edited by KoshN (edited December 15, 2001).]
Well, I didn't "hate" it, but here are some reasons why some people might have hated it, or just not been interested in it.
1. When originally shown on TNT, it was shown out of order. There were a number of things that stood out like sore thumbs (e.g. the uniforms issue), and didn't make sense (e.g. They used the virus screen in Patterns of the Soul, that they discovered in The Memory of War, 5 episodes later.). Lines were looped to minimize this for the TNT order, but Crusade still falls flat when shown in the TNT order.
TNT Order:
War Zone
The Long Road
The Well of Forever
The Path of Sorrows
Patterns of the Soul
Ruling from the Tomb
The Rules of the Game
Appearances and Other Deceits
Racing the Night
The Memory of War
The Needs of Earth
Visitors from Down the Street
Each Night I Dream of Home
2. There were only 13 episodes filmed, and these were not meant to be shown back-to-back. 10 other episodes were supposed to be interlaced between some of the existing 12 episodes, but these 10 episodes were never filmed. (22-12=10. "War Zone" was redundant, caused continuity errors, and was never supposed to exist, but was demanded by TNT.)
3. TNT tried to screw with virtually every aspect of the story, and tried to prevent the first five episodes produced, from being completed.
101 The Needs of Earth
102 The Memory of War
103 Racing the Night
104 Visitors from Down the Street
105 Each Night I Dream of Home
4. When shown later, on Sci-Fi, in a more correct order, the lines that were looped to make better sense of the TNT order, now make the Sci-Fi order look incorrect. There is no absolutely correct order in which to watch the existing 13 episodes.
5. There are a few errors that will always sneak through because nobody's perfect (and neither an I, so I'm undoubtedly missing some):
Racing the Night:
When they first go down to the planet, why aren't they in anti-contamination suits? They don't know until "Each Night I Dream of Home" (which was the last episode shown on TNT) exactly how the virus enters the body. They suspect it is airborne. Given that the virus is nanotech, it could have been reawakened when they touched down on the planet (like the technomage nanotech virus in "The Memory of War"). The aliens, by trying to not let any ship leave, were essentially quarantining their planet, which makes sense.
Why doesn't the Excalibur noticeably accelerate toward the planet when they quit resisting with their engines (when they divert almost all power to the main gun)? The planet must have cut off the "enhanced gravity field" the very instant the ship quit resisting, but why? And why wasn't this mentioned by Matheson? Even when resisting with the engines at max. power, they were being pulled down to the planet, so it's not like the "enhanced gravity field" was just trying to keep them stationary, just pulling when they were trying to leave.
The Memory of War:
When Galen is holding the probe and saying that it just made a dent in his ship, why do we not see Galen from the probe's POV? Well, when Gideon told Matheson to "Show me (what the probe was reading).", maybe Galen sent his communications A/V signal to the probe and prevented it from seeing anything else (e.g the inside of his ship).
.
.
.
.
When I first saw Crusade on TNT (and I saw & taped all the episodes), a few of the episodes seemed, well, empty, lacking content and/or needed a follow-up episode (e.g. The Well of Forever, Ruling from the Tomb, The Rules of the Game, The Needs of Earth). Some also seemed to be lacking a sense of urgency. Granted, you can't keep up a sustained sense of urgency and stress, 24/7, but in some episodes (e.g. The Well of Forever, Visitors from Down the Street) seemed like they'd temporarily forgotten their mission. Unless the people who instigated these divergences from their mission know of some short cuts to the goal, and just aren't telling anybody, they are neglecting their core mission by going on these side tracks.
Appearances and Other Deceits originally seemed to be lacking a sense of the mission when Gideon brought up the self-destruct order. "If we can't figure a way out of this, we'll have to pull out Plan B. We can't afford to let these things get to an inhabited planet. If we can't stop them, if it looks like they're going to gain control of the ship, I'm authorizing self-destruct. One way or another, this ends here." Later, I realized the weight of what Gideon was saying. He was sacrificing what was probably Earth's best chance (the Excalibur, her crew, and the mission), to save all other worlds that these aliens might contact. Some must be sacrificed, so that all could be saved.
After viewing the Crusade episodes in JMS/Sci-Fi's order, they make more sense (ignoring the uniforms issue). After viewing each episode more than once, I can also appreciate the finer points, things you don't see on a first viewing.
At this point in time, I'd love nothing more than to have Crusade back, with new episodes being filmed to put right all (or most of) the TNT wrongs. This doesn't mean that I don't want Rangers, because I do. I just hate to see Crusade left in it's current condition. I feel about TNT's treatment of Crusade, the way Kosh Naranek felt about the maelstrom and Morden.
------------------
KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire
"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 19, 2002 at 9PM & 11PM EST, January 20, 2002 at 5PM on The Sci-Fi Channel (US). http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/
[This message has been edited by KoshN (edited December 15, 2001).]
KoshN
Super Moderator
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by drakh:
I can dig up a link to my own episode for episode comments of Crusade's effects if your interested.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
*hand raised* I'm interested.
------------------
KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire
"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 19, 2002 at 9PM & 11PM EST, January 20, 2002 at 5PM on The Sci-Fi Channel (US).
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/
I can dig up a link to my own episode for episode comments of Crusade's effects if your interested.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
*hand raised* I'm interested.
------------------
KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire
"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 19, 2002 at 9PM & 11PM EST, January 20, 2002 at 5PM on The Sci-Fi Channel (US).
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/
I liked Chen's music. They add something new. Still Frake was still the best.
------------------
Webmaster for B5:A2
Babylon 5: Armada II
A MOD for Star Trek: Armada II
http://www.tgu.org.uk/users/babylon5/
------------------
Webmaster for B5:A2
Babylon 5: Armada II
A MOD for Star Trek: Armada II
http://www.tgu.org.uk/users/babylon5/
Crusade wasn't the problem....... it was what TNT did to jms!!!!!!!!!!!!! .
It had such potential and they destroyed it, i'm glad jms got out of it
Maybe jms will get to do Crusade HIS way someday
------------------
"Will you follow me into fire? Into storm, into darkness, into death?!
It had such potential and they destroyed it, i'm glad jms got out of it
Maybe jms will get to do Crusade HIS way someday
------------------
"Will you follow me into fire? Into storm, into darkness, into death?!
