A message from Christopher Pike

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Hehe, I'd laugh if it turned out to be Jerry Doyle or something. Perhaps Peter Jurasik... wanting to get back at that lousy Narn.

I personally don't expect much for what is supposed to act as a pilot, a pilot is merely to impress the common person and get their taste buds on stand by. The movie has to be on it's own and not need the rich history of B5 to understand it, otherwise it's doomed to fail. Because sci-fi want people who DON'T know what the hell B5 is, they want their own show... not B5 with another name slapped on it. Which means starting off with a fresh start, problem with that is JMS's most amazing ability is lost. His ability to set up an arc and send you on a rollercoaster of a journey (that requires time). So no, I don't expect it to be very deep. Some might argue he could have the movie have a deep story, feature films manage. Well those feature films don't lead to a possible 5 year story. And if JMS wanted to make a feature film, he'd hold out to actually make one and not a cheaper version. It'd just be a waste on something that is supposed to merely get the audiences attention, action and nice effects being the major factor for a sci-fi show such as this. I could only imagine how a lord of the rings series would work, if you put all the story in the pilot.

Always the problem with making a spinoff, it's expected to do what it's predecessor did during its run in 2 hours. Which is impossible not to compare them, at least in your head unless you're a new comer. In which case, of course it's not gonna measure up... you've seen years of story. But the pilots not really meant for you, you're all ready hooked and will likely watch the series no matter how bad it is... its for those who wouldn't normally watch a B5 show. Those kind of people don't exactly want 2 hours filled with a plot so thick you have to re-watch it a few times to fully comprehend it, they just want some fun. And from the trailer, thats what I pickup. Probably all wrong but I just thought I'd throw my opinion in the mix.

"If you're going to be worried every time the universe doesn't make sense, you're going to be worried every moment of every day for the rest of your natural life."

-G'Kar

EDIT - Oh and btw, by logging onto a messageboard and giving your IP... doesn't that mean you've all ready given up your privacy? Easy enough to trace, find out the ISP etc.

Just a thought.

------------------
BETH: "Well all I did was go for a really long walk."
JIMMY: "Where'd you go?"
BETH: "I don't know... I mean... all over the city, I guess... and then somehow I ended up standing outside Bill's apartment building and... I wanted to make sure he was... really gone, you know... so I figured out which window was his and then I just started yelling, you know, "BILL, HEY BILL!!!"
JIMMY: "And then what happened?"
BETH: "Well, finally someone opened their window and yelled down, "Shut the hell up you crazy bitch!"
JOE: "That's just what Bill would've done."
BETH: "Yeah, and that just made me think... his spirit lives on in others." - Newsradio

[This message has been edited by Dark Lord (edited October 17, 2001).]

 

[Galahad]

One could argue of course that by generating so much heat, this review could profit the attention other people give the TV movie, people might well want to know what all the fuss is about!

Chris Pike has also taken an enormous risk, people in the media can dig VERY deep when they think they have a story. It is entirely possible that the amount of razzamataz this has caused, could result in SOMEBODY wanting to find out WHO created the fuss, when you operate in a clandestine fashion and make it known you have secrets, it's only natural that people will want to try to find out those.

Me? I'm not fussed, I am governed by no human when it comes to personal taste, all my friends have gradually been sucked into the Harry Potter phenomenon, yet I remain distant because I refuse to be told what to watch and what to read!

The hwhole HP thing reminds me of the STTNG episode where everyone is getting brainwashed by that game.

Next time I see someone reading a HP book, I'll flash a strobe light in their face and see what happens

The whole premise of the B5 experience is about learningf to accept that you can stand on your own, that individual opinions do matter.

What each and every one of you does in some way will affect the future of B5LR. To lay the blame at one mans door is foolhardy.

If you really must be swayed by reviews, wait till more come out and see what the overall picture is.

I'm sure jms will react if anything gets his goat, in the mean time lets not let anything get ours!

I have to say I was angry at the wording of the review myself, but my review is the only one that counts for me! That will have to wait another 5 months seeing as I'm on the wrong side of the Atlantic!

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"We Live for the One. We die for the One!"

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dark Lord:
Hehe, I'd laugh if it turned out to be Jerry Doyle or something. Perhaps Peter Jurasik... wanting to get back at that lousy Narn.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
I personally don't expect much for what is supposed to act as a pilot, a pilot is merely to impress the common person and get their taste buds on stand by. The movie has to be on it's own and not need the rich history of B5 to understand it, otherwise it's doomed to fail. Because sci-fi want people who DON'T know what the hell B5 is, they want their own show... not B5 with another name slapped on it. Which means starting off with a fresh start, problem with that is JMS's most amazing ability is lost. His ability to set up an arc and send you on a rollercoaster of a journey (that requires time). So no, I don't expect it to be very deep. Some might argue he could have the movie have a deep story, feature films manage. Well those feature films don't lead to a possible 5 year story. And if JMS wanted to make a feature film, he'd hold out to actually make one and not a cheaper version. It'd just be a waste on something that is supposed to merely get the audiences attention, action and nice effects being the major factor for a sci-fi show such as this. I could only imagine how a lord of the rings series would work, if you put all the story in the pilot.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But a pilot must also be *good* on its own merits - something I found LOTR to not be, personally.



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[**DONOTDELETE**]

Some random comments and a question for Chris Pike, if he happens to read this:

-------------

I have heard your opinion and taken note. But I would still much prefer checking the temperature of hell... to basing my opinion on your review. I have missed too many interesting things due to reviews.

I will wait and see, basing my opinion on what I see. So far my opinion is positive. Even in the unlikely case of disliking the pilot, I will remember the "pilot syndrome" and watch some of the first season to verify any possible doubts.

Luckily my task is not convincing you of B5LR's inherent excellence (and neither is yours convincing me of its inherent faultyness). Basing on what I have seen of "Babylon 5" before, I suspect that you are in error.

-------------

And now to my question: did you tremendously like "The Gathering" and what do you think about the general quality of pilot movies? (When compared to the series they often lead to.)

I would remind you of two details: Babylon 5 was heavily based on story arcs and character development -- something that neither a stand-alone movie nor 13 episodes of TNT-disturbed "Crusade" can provide.

Secondly, the setting of B5LR has not been described as "battling ancient enemies". As far as I know, it has been described as "rebuilding the galaxy, creating peace after the Shadow War".

-----------

This leads me to suspect and hope that your pessimism is unfounded. But if pessimism helps you, feel free to keep it. I don't go grabbing for more.

------------------
"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited October 17, 2001).]

 

[Myrl]

This is all very wierd and new to me. The fact that there's no barriers between critics, actors, or fans here. Very disturbing.

I personally love the fact that it's negetive. EVERY review I read of the X-Men movie before it came out was negative. So my expectations were exceptionally low, thinking the movie could be as bad as Masters of the Universe. But because I was I fan, I was still going to see it. It ended up (to me) being one of the best comic book adaptations I had ever seen.

I'm not saying this will happen here. What I'm saying is that: if you go into every movie thinking it'll be bad, there's a very good chance that you'll never be disappointed if it really is.

Okay, I may for once be simultaneously making an ass out of myself and making no sense at all.

........... (sigh)

Alright.

The Gathering was the worst pilot ever made. Period. I thought it was cool at the time (when I was 9). But now when I watch it I cringe. At the bad acting, the hokey storyline, the cheezy FX, the terrible make-up... man it was bad.

If the guy says it was better than Crusade, it's already ten-times better than the Gathering. So I'm relieved.

------------------
Tick: Destiny's powerful hand has made the bed of my future, and it's up to me to lie in it. I am destined to be a superhero. To right wrongs, and to pound two-fisted justice into the hearts of evildoers everywhere. And you don't fight destiny! No sir! And, you don't eat crackers in the bed of your future, or you get all... scratchy.

Tick: Oh, science... boring... interest... fading...

Tick: You know, Arthur, when you spend two months riding around on a really big man, you start to learn a few things about yourself. You learn that it is a really great thing to stay on Earth and live in a place that has no arms or legs of its own. And most importantly, Arthur, you learn how to close your eyes and tell yourself that this just isn't happening to me.

 

[Capt. Neville]

As for pilots being good/bad relative to the series, I think someone in another thread already mentioned "The Gathering"....

An interesting side thought, though: Crusade never really had a pilot, did it? Unless you count the B5 telemovie that led into it, which I wouldn't. So given, that, even if LotR *is* bad, given what "The Gathering" was in comparison to the rest of the B5 arc, I can't see that saying much about the quality of the series itself. If anything, the series will be far better (even some of the cast has said as much...)

Me, personally, whatever the reviewers may say, will be watching it come January. Even if it is bad, I will still give it a chance and watch the (crosses fingers) eventual series.

After all, I gave DS9 and Voyager a chance after their pilots. If I gave *them* a chance, hell, by all rights, I should give *anything* a chance.....

Cheers,
-mcn

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Capt. Neville:
As for pilots being good/bad relative to the series, I think someone in another thread already mentioned "The Gathering"....

An interesting side thought, though: Crusade never really had a pilot, did it? Unless you count the B5 telemovie that led into it, which I wouldn't. So given, that, even if LotR *is* bad, given what "The Gathering" was in comparison to the rest of the B5 arc, I can't see that saying much about the quality of the series itself. If anything, the series will be far better (even some of the cast has said as much...)

Me, personally, whatever the reviewers may say, will be watching it come January. Even if it is bad, I will still give it a chance and watch the (crosses fingers) eventual series.

After all, I gave DS9 and Voyager a chance after their pilots. If I gave *them* a chance, hell, by all rights, I should give *anything* a chance.....

Cheers,
-mcn<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Crusade did have a pilot - it was called A CALL TO ARMS, and set up an infinitely better series premise had Boxleitner - through clouded circumstances - not been removed from the picture in the period prior to Crusade.


------------------

 

[Capt. Neville]

Thank you, A Call to Arms. The title slipped my mind for a moment there...

Frankly, I don't think that counts as a pilot, given the considerably different cast members. ACtA was meant as a B5 telemovie to lead into Crusade, but since a pilot episode is meant (more or less) to give an example of what one could expect from a series, ACtA doesn't fit the bill.

Also, are you implying that Boxleitner was originally slated to be in Crusade. If so, where do you get this information? I find it very unlikely, given that--as President of the Interstellar Alliance--he would not have more than a passing contact with a ship such as the Excaliber. Once Sheridan was relocated to the IA headquarters on Minbar, it would be unlikely that the Excaliber crew would do more than just run into him from time to time (figuratively speaking, of course

Cheers,
-mcn

 

[Galahad]

You aren't suggesting that Sheridan was going to Captain the Excalibur during the series are you? Cos that's just horse hockey.

A Call to Arms was merely a bridge between the two. I dunno this could be contraversial, but it might have been an idea to do a few scenes with Gideon in ACTA.

Just loose bitsa like Ivanova and Sinclair in In the Beginning.

Just a thought!

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"We Live for the One. We die for the One!"

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Also, are you implying that Boxleitner was originally slated to be in Crusade. [/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes... And I'm in no way implying. I believe I phrased it as a statement in my former post.



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[**DONOTDELETE**]

A lot of jobs have rules that prevent people writing to newspapers without getting permission first. The most well known example is the British Civil Service.

It sounds like Christopher Pike works for a supplier to Warner Brothers or Sci-Fi.

One of the jobs that used to limit what people said about films was film reviewer for a newspaper. Good reviews only or the studio did not invite you to previews. One woman was black listed for a year. She got around the problem by paying to see the film.


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Andrew Swallow

 

[Galahad]

Bruce Boxleitner pretty much said all along that he considered A Call to Arms to be a torch passing thing, that he felt it would be the last thing he did in B5, those were in interviews prior to Crusade being chalked up as a possible series when ACtA was still in production.

I don't think JMS would have written Sheridan in like that, it's not his style. It just wouldn't be plausable.

I would agree with the point that Sheridan's presence would have helped underline the Arthurian ethos behind the show, but no further!

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"We Live for the One. We die for the One!"

 

[Capt. Neville]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Yes... And I'm in no way implying. I believe I phrased it as a statement in my former post.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In that case, I reiterate: on what basis do you claim this? Do you have any proof? Or is it pure conjecture? I already stated my reasons for disbelieving such a thing, but if you have evidence to the contrary, I'd be happy to see/hear it...

--mcn

(edited to provide original quote for context)


[This message has been edited by Capt. Neville (edited October 17, 2001).]

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>lol

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*raises eyebrow in suspicious way*

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tobias Clutch:
But a pilot must also be *good* on its own merits - something I found LOTR to not be, personally.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well like I said you're all ready hooked most likely. Of course a pilot should be good but it is just to get the series, thats where things really start happening. In defining good in this context, good is getting the show picked up... then JMS can play with it. The fans may not like it but sci-fi obviously knows we're quite the loyal bunch (as expressed by their call to arms ad campaign), so they're looking for getting those who would not normally like a show like B5. Don't know about you but friends couldn't understand why I liked the series until I forced them to sit and watch the thing. In doing so became fans themselves. That was the problem with the gathering I think, instead of trying to simply bring in the audience it seemed as though JMS was trying to get every story in there at once. Touched upon telepaths, Vorlons, Minbari war, Sinclair's secret, Garibaldi's problems, Narn/Centauri conflict, station purpose etc. Basically trying to get across a big part of the arc for B5 all at once and getting no where, IMO. Things like that work better when gradually introduced as B5 shows over the 5 years.

At first glance 'A Call to Arms' has very little story at all. An English guy tells Sheriden to look for people, he finds them, they look for more people, they find them, those people are bad, they kill them. That sums up a call to arms, it looked like a mindless action movie. A good action movie but very little depth at first glance. But things like the book trilogy series and the first season give you more insight into 'A Call to Arms' and make it a far more indepth experience upon second glance.

Btw, you've seen it too? Are you from AICN or something? Has everyone seen this movie but us?

------------------
BETH: "Well all I did was go for a really long walk."
JIMMY: "Where'd you go?"
BETH: "I don't know... I mean... all over the city, I guess... and then somehow I ended up standing outside Bill's apartment building and... I wanted to make sure he was... really gone, you know... so I figured out which window was his and then I just started yelling, you know, "BILL, HEY BILL!!!"
JIMMY: "And then what happened?"
BETH: "Well, finally someone opened their window and yelled down, "Shut the hell up you crazy bitch!"
JOE: "That's just what Bill would've done."
BETH: "Yeah, and that just made me think... his spirit lives on in others." - Newsradio

 

[Jomar]

I went to aicn and read the review, and I have now read through the revised version.
My opinion? Christopher Pike did not enjoy Legend of the Rangers

So what? I am curious to know how he happened to see the completed film as it has only been shown to a privileged few, the SciFi people, the actors and some of the crew. That's about it if we are to believe what we have been told.

This really is a very nasty review, whether that was intended or not. It sounds like a rabid Star Fan who is trying to destroy the opposition before it even hits the air. Of course that was compounded by the use of his user name.

I for one still want to see the show when it is aired, and I reserve the right to make my own judgement.

------------------

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dark Lord:
Well like I said you're all ready hooked most likely. Of course a pilot should be good but it is just to get the series, thats where things really start happening. In defining good in this context, good is getting the show picked up... then JMS can play with it. The fans may not like it but sci-fi obviously knows we're quite the loyal bunch (as expressed by their call to arms ad campaign), so they're looking for getting those who would not normally like a show like B5. Don't know about you but friends couldn't understand why I liked the series until I forced them to sit and watch the thing. In doing so became fans themselves. That was the problem with the gathering I think, instead of trying to simply bring in the audience it seemed as though JMS was trying to get every story in there at once. Touched upon telepaths, Vorlons, Minbari war, Sinclair's secret, Garibaldi's problems, Narn/Centauri conflict, station purpose etc. Basically trying to get across a big part of the arc for B5 all at once and getting no where, IMO. Things like that work better when gradually introduced as B5 shows over the 5 years.

At first glance 'A Call to Arms' has very little story at all. An English guy tells Sheriden to look for people, he finds them, they look for more people, they find them, those people are bad, they kill them. That sums up a call to arms, it looked like a mindless action movie. A good action movie but very little depth at first glance. But things like the book trilogy series and the first season give you more insight into 'A Call to Arms' and make it a far more indepth experience upon second glance.

Btw, you've seen it too? Are you from AICN or something? Has everyone seen this movie but us?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did not enjoy LOTR as a stand-alone story. My disappointment was compounded by my love of B5 but tempered by my experience with Crusade.

In reference to your sig - and by comparison, just because it piqued my attention - Newsradio was a perfect pilot. The situation and characters were established perfectly without compromising the story... I can't say the same for LOTR.

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[drakh]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dark Lord:
Which means starting off with a fresh start, problem with that is JMS's most amazing ability is lost. His ability to set up an arc and send you on a rollercoaster of a journey (that requires time).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I beg to differ. While there may be issues with the execution, there was clearly an arc developing.

It had to do with the impact of the plague, and it's "cure", on Earth. It had to do with elements of Earth Force playing around things that they shouldn't have... things they may not be entirely in control of. It had to do with the Techno-Mages, and their stake in the other threads. It had to do with Gideon's self-righteousness and increasing moral ambiguity... The price he'd have to pay for relying on the Apocalypse Box to provide easy solutions. And that's just tip of the ice berg.

While I'm at it, I'd like to say that I liked Crusade. It was flawed, but the characterization of Gideon and Max was a joy to watch. They were both fun characters. Galen interesting too (I gather a number of Crusade "detractors" changed their opinion of him after reading the Techno-Mage novels).

And the episodes... The first one jms holds up as close to what he wanted Crusade to be, the unproduced To The Ends of the Earth, is probably the one that puts away my doubt that the Crusade is crap crowd is right, and that I'm just an idiot fanboy deluding myself. It was intense, fast paced, and I'd put it above its B5 equivalent (Signs and Portents).

And before I forget... Jms was doing arcs before B5 (there's a web site out there with him detailing his plans up to season 4 of Captain Power), and he's been doing arcing since (his comics work). Midnight Nation, for example, is superb, and has been one heck of a roller coaster ride so far.


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You are not entitled to your own opinion. You are only entitled to your own informed opinion.
-- Harlan Ellison qouting Gustave Flaubert

[This message has been edited by drakh (edited October 17, 2001).]

 

[channe]

Actually, Chris made me want to see it even more. So I can do my own review. Heh, heh, heh.

And it might just correspond with his. I hope it doesn't. But we'll see.

I'm still looking forward to it.

------------------
Channe, the pseudo-Ranger, who lives for the One and dies for the chocolate cheesecake
--
OnlineDude: I suppose now would not be the time to bring up the old one about the starlet who was so new to Hollywood she slept with the writer...
JMS: But that was only because she heard that in Hollywood, *everyone* screws the writer.
--
"Foreshadowing! Your key to quality literature!" -Berkeley Breathed

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tobias Clutch:
I did not enjoy LOTR as a stand-alone story. My disappointment was compounded by my love of B5 but tempered by my experience with Crusade.

In reference to your sig - and by comparison, just because it piqued my attention - Newsradio was a perfect pilot. The situation and characters were established perfectly without compromising the story... I can't say the same for LOTR.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I haven't seen it so I can't really talk about it. But I do wonder whether or not you enjoyed 'The Gathering', if you did not like it but admit your love of B5 then you can see the pilot for what it is.

Comedy and sci-fi are like apples and oranges though. Only good sci-fi pilots that I can think of are 'Now and Again' and 'Space: Above and Beyond'.

Drakh - Keyword: 'Developing'

I can see that there was an arc developing but that doesn't really help at the 'here and now'. Now that I have seen the rest of B5, I can take the gathering a lot better and a lot of S1. If B5 got cancelled at S1, I doubt it would get such a following since it was used to plant most of B5's plot seeds.

I think you misread me, I really liked Crusade. I think it did a helluva lot more than what B5 did in it's first season (although I hate the music). He had successfully managed to setup at least a dozen major story arcs from which to flourish later on. I think JMS learnt his lessons on how to setup such arcs from B5, and improved upon it with Crusade even though at the time there was so many problems. I can remember how S1 B5 was to me and how it is to me now I have seen the end of the story (concerning B5). Yes Crusade had flaws, so did B5 though, nothing is perfect but I still say Crusade did more story development than B5 managed in the same number of eps.

------------------
BETH: "Well all I did was go for a really long walk."
JIMMY: "Where'd you go?"
BETH: "I don't know... I mean... all over the city, I guess... and then somehow I ended up standing outside Bill's apartment building and... I wanted to make sure he was... really gone, you know... so I figured out which window was his and then I just started yelling, you know, "BILL, HEY BILL!!!"
JIMMY: "And then what happened?"
BETH: "Well, finally someone opened their window and yelled down, "Shut the hell up you crazy bitch!"
JOE: "That's just what Bill would've done."
BETH: "Yeah, and that just made me think... his spirit lives on in others." - Newsradio

 

[drakh]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Galahad:
Bruce Boxleitner pretty much said all along that he considered A Call to Arms to be a torch passing thing, that he felt it would be the last thing he did in B5, those were in interviews prior to Crusade being chalked up as a possible series when ACtA was still in production.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I quote from the Babylon 5 Magazine, issue 9, volume 2, A Call to Arms station log, page 15:

"It's kind of strange," [Boxleitner] begins. "I know I've been saying this the last couple of days, but I'm the last of the old Babylonians to walk out the door. And it's a sad day for me. I really love doing this show, and I'm going to miss all of you. And it's really weird, you know. It really is. But I want to say something. I want to wish you all good luck in the coming Crusade, and I hope it goes another five, and I hope it has the success that the first four or five years did. We may well see each other again in the same universe. But anyway, I love you all, and it's been great, and I'm certainly glad I got to come back and do this picture. I just got to say bye."

Friday, 29th of May, 1998, the day before filming on ACTA ended.

If the film was intended as a pilot for Crusade headed by Boxleitner, then he sure didn't know about it.

------------------
You are not entitled to your own opinion. You are only entitled to your own informed opinion.
-- Harlan Ellison qouting Gustave Flaubert