A small goof

[gangster]

Rewatched To Live and Die in Starlight today and noticed a small goof I hadn't noticed before. When Martel and Dulann were discussing David's choices for the Crew and in particular the addition of Drazi and Narn, Dulann asked why these two. David replied, more or less, because they were the "most recent" members of the Alliance and needed a chance. However, both Narns and Drazi were (IIRC) were both among the original members. Any comment?

 

[Sinclair]

I'm pretty sure that the original members of the Alliance were the Narn, Centauri, and Minbari. The others must have followed shortly thereafter, but I'm pretty sure that they weren't there from the start, as they requested the protection of the Alliance with the Drakh threat and the raiders...I can't remember exactly, it's been a while since I've seen those episodes.

 

[gangster]

It has been a while here also but I seem to remember that when the Alliance was set up and Sheridan elected President the Drazi and Narn were both in the meeting to sign the agreement. Could be wrong.

 

[Sinclair]

I was just trying to recall the episode where Sheridan tries to dupe the league of non-aligned worlds into signing something that allowed the whitestar fleet to protect their borders (because of the Drakh or the raiders, maybe, I don't remember).

I just remember that one part in the episode where Ivanova is doing her voice of the resistance newscast and she says something like, "Nothing happened in sector ???. I repeat, absolutely nothing happened in sector ???" Then again, if she was doing the voice of the resistance, it was before they started the Alliance.

Now you've done gone an' gotten me all confused. /forums/images/icons/confused.gif

 

[gangster]

I remember the episode you mentioned but the one I'm referring to was just before, or right after, Sheridan brought the White Star Fleet and rebel Earth Force ships to Earth and Clark killed himself. There was a scene where first Delenn gave G'Kar & Londo a proposal (for the Alliance) and Londo said something to the effect Delenn was quite mad, but laughed. At that point other members, including a Drazi, walked into the chambers. The actual signing wasn't shown but after Clark was dead and Sheridan was forced to resign from Earth Forces, he was announced as president of the new Alliance. which indicates all the other races signed on to the proposal.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
David replied, more or less, because they were the "most recent" members of the Alliance and needed a chance.

[/quote]

Did he say that they were the most recent members of the Alliance, or the most recent to join the Rangers? Membership in the Alliance does not automatically mean that a government will allow its citizens to serve in what amounts to a foreign military. Both the Narn and the Drazi were probably reluctant to do so. Serving in their own ships under their own officers as part of a joint mission is one thing, training under the Minbari and vowing to "Live for the One and Die for the One" is quite another. I can imagine both races being reluctant to permit it, and that few of their citizens would have been eager to ask. It seems reasonable that it would be a couple of years before the first Narn or Drazi recruit turned up.

Regards,

Joe

 

[Sinclair]

My initial thought was that they were the most recent to join the Rangers too, but after reading gangster's post, I thought I remembered him saying Alliance too. Guess I'll have to go rewatch it.

I was just confusing the hell out of myself with my previous posts, getting one episode mixed up with another.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
The actual signing wasn't shown but after Clark was dead and Sheridan was forced to resign from Earth Forces, he was announced as president of the new Alliance. which indicates all the other races signed on to the proposal.

[/quote]

Not necessarily. The Alliance could have been started, in principle, with only the Narn, Centauri and Minbari. The others may or may not have signed on at that point. Given that one of the requirements of membership was adherence to the Declaration of Principles, and that this wasn't even put into final form until several episodes into S5, it is likely that few other races were full and official members until some months after the initial agreement between the first three races. Certainly the Drazi didn't agree to the Declaration until after their plot against the Emfili was uncovered and they damned near lost their fleet to the White Stars. Therefore they presumably weren't members until that time.

But I still have a feeling that David's reference was to the Rangers, not the Alliance itself. Of course I'll have to dig out my tape and check that. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

Regards,

Joe

 

[GShans]

I remember him saying Alliance, but i agree with you, and to contradict you, they were not full members of the Alliance until the Declaration of Principles were signed, they most likely agreed to the alliance and joined up in that meeting we did not see aboard the Whitestar. Not a full contradiction, just a clarification /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

 

[gangster]

Joseph DeMartino wrote: "Did he say that they were the most recent members of the Alliance, or the most recent to join the Rangers?"

He said, "The Narn and Drazi are the most recent members of the Alliance. These are the first recruits we got from them."
(Exact wording. Just checked my tape.)

 

[Kribu]

Yep, gangster is right, I just checked it as well.

I can think of two possible explanations that wouldn't make this a goof:

(1) David messed up, didn't know his facts;
(2) The Narn and the Drazi were kicked out of the Alliance after their attack on the Centauri and only recently readmitted.

I doubt that (2) applies though. It wasn't mentioned in the series - I suppose there might have been some punishment (forcing them to pay, limiting their part in the Alliance, something like that) but I doubt they'd have been kicked out so that it was never mentioned. The Drazi, maybe, but I really doubt they'd have kicked out the Narn and the topic never even coming out between the rest of the top people and G'Kar, or in G'Kar's last message to Ta'Lon.

The third explanation is, of course, that this was a goof. Maybe JMS meant to say Rangers but typed the Alliance and didn't notice it? Maybe he forgot? Maybe he thought using "the Alliance" would sound better to the potential new viewers?

 

[Loadhan]

I remember thinking that as wrong when I first heard it the first time the movie aired. From what I gathered at the end of season 4, the Minbari, the Narn, the Centauri, and the main branches of the former Legue came up with the idea for the ISA together - without much if any discussion with Humans and certainly none from the then legitiment (and soon to be outsted) government or the post-Clarke government (which didn't even find out about the ISA until after much of the decisions were done and it was ratified by Congress until after Sheriden became president-elect) so the EA was definately a later member of the primary groups. If they count from the signing of the Declaration of Princeples (which comes probably at least a month or more after the celebrated start of the ISA - since ACtA discussed the anniversary was at the end of an Earth year and not the beginning), then it appears that the main races we've seen in B5 all signed at the same time (with maybe a few exceptions but the Drazi nor Narns were among them). The Emfili had to sign at least a few days later. I would look at the same way as the USA being declared started in 1776 even the Constitution (which was signed by all the member states) wasn't drafted for many years later but the states were considered part of the USA before that. And later in TLaDiS, David mentioned that Ambassador Kafta's people were the latest to join the ISA.

I think it really had to have meant latest to send candidates to the Anla'shok. I still want to know about the Pak'ma'ra Ranger. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

 

[Sinclair]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
David messed up, didn't know his facts

[/quote]
I'd thought about that too. Maybe he didn't know his facts, or he just said the wrong thing. We all do it in real life, why can't he?

 

[Recoil]

Joe and others:

I remember in "Rising Star" Delenn saying that all of them approved and signed the proposal for the new Alliance. At THAT TIME and in THAT EPISODE Delenn also made the comment that "as of now, all member races can contribute to the Rangers," which was never the case before. In Season 5, the Narn and Drazi were both very active in the Alliance.

I think it is merely a goof or oversight. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

 

[Kribu]

Of course, Delenn saying that everyone "can contribute" doesn't necessarily mean that everyone started or even wanted to contribute right away. So I could still buy it that the Narn and the Drazi were among the most recent members/recruits to the Rangers, but not to the Alliance.

But yeah, I suppose we can either consider it David's mistake or JMS's oversight, whichever anyone prefers. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

 

[gangster]

Kribu wrote: "The third explanation is, of course, that this was a goof. Maybe JMS meant to say Rangers but typed the Alliance and didn't notice it?"

This, of all suggested, sounds to me the most reasonable.

 

[hypatia]

I think that for whatever reasons, the Rangers project was rushed. It has been mentioned before, by others. There are just little hints here and there that TLaDIS was a rushed piece of work.

I still say it was better than at least 95% of the tv I check out when the new shows come on.

 

[gangster]

Hypatia wrote: "I think that for whatever reasons, the Rangers project was rushed. It has been mentioned before, by others. There are just little hints here and there that TLaDIS was a rushed piece of work.

I still say it was better than at least 95% of the tv I check out when the new shows come on."

Agree with your conclusions.

 

[Cern]

Didnt Lennier say that he got his facial scar from a Drazi Recruit? and that would have been 3 years before TLADIS

 

[hypatia]

Perhaps they have been waiting longer than 3 years for an assignment. I dont' know.