A_M_Swallow
Regular
Green Vs. Purple reminds me of British football hooligans. All white gangs fight over which team they support.
-
The new B5TV.COM is here. We've replaced our 16 year old software with flashy new XenForo install. Registration is open again. Password resets will work again. More info here.
B5 Episodes You Prefer To Skip?
- Thread starter Truth_Seeker
- Start date
Cell
Regular
It doesn't need to be established, it is simple common sense. B5 is an Earth station and thus the people living on it are subject to Earth laws. That is the way that society, on any planet, works. The idea of different species living on the stations being allowed to operate under their own laws and not B5 laws is preposterous. That's the equivalent to saying that a Florida man living in Britain doesn't have to live by their laws, but can do whatever he wants as based on the laws of Florida. The system that everyone is suggesting B5 operates under just doesn't work, and it wouldn't work in any situation, that is not how laws operate in any country or with any people.
It doesn't matter if one Drazi was killed or twenty. The change occurred because of the fact that Drazi starting killing each other on their homeworld. This change was accepted by the Drazi on their homeworld and on B5, making it an internal matter. They weren't affecting anyone else by killing each other, this much was clearly shown on screen when the first dead Drazi were discovered. Yet, despite all this Ivanova continued her involvement and continued to interfere in a Drazi internal matter.
The TM trilogy implies that the Shadows influenced the Green/Purple power system with the Drazi. I put more stock in that than something JMS said in an out of universe quote, so as of right now until something is said differently in-universe the only actual evidence in the case points towards the Shadows influencing the situation.
Last edited:
Jan
Regular
Sorry, Cell...I just don't know what point you're making. Your complaint seemed to be about a contradiction in established B5 policy and when I point out that there was no such policy you continue to seem to complain that Ivanova continued to get involved despite the policy which we both now seem to be agreeing never existed in the first place.
Jan
Jan
Cell
Regular
No, I am clearly saying that policy exists, although a different policy that what you are saying exists, (although I did make an ancillary point about how that I will pint out later). You are using Sinclair getting involved with Kosh sets a precedent, but it doesn't. The issue of stepping in to save a life is not corroborative with the issue of meting out punishments for breaking station law. In the one case Sinclair made a judgment call when a life was on the line and he stepped in, but no law was being violated either way.
In the case of the Believers a law was broken, they killed someone. The fact that Sinclair did nothing after they killed the child does not jive at all with what we see in the station later on when Ivanova gets involved in the Drazi dispute. Both were internal matters and in both instances the death, or deaths, did not affect anyone else on station. So clearly if B5 had a policy that said they didn't get involved in internal alien matters even if they went against station law then they would never have continued their involvement with the Drazi affair.
My ancillary point was that there must be law on B5 and that the idea of not interfering in internal policies on B5 even if they go against station law is preposterous. So, even if the show didn't provide an example of the station enforcing its law against the internal policy of a people in the case of the Drazi I wouldn't buy the argument of there being a policy that says "we don't get involved in internal matters." But, I don't have to worry about that, because the station does have a policy, and that is to enforce punishment against the breaking of their laws unless you have been granted diplomatic immunity.
Jan
Regular
Except, of course, that you're interpreting that it's a "fact" that Sinclair did nothing when there's nothing seen onscreen to corroborate that. Fact is what's shown onscreen or said in dialogue. Many other things happen offscreen and aren't mentioned, of course, but IMO, unless you can point to something that did happen that everyone can see, it's only supposition on your part.
Jan
Cell
Regular
I think the fact that nothing ever happen to Franklin supports the fact that nothing happen to the parents. Any action taken against the parents would have undoubtedly brought action against Franklin as well, and his ignoring a direct order from a superior officer, yet again, would have surely led to a transfer in his case (a court martial and immediate dismissal if he weren't a General's son). There is no evidence to support this, but I firmly believe that everything points to nothing being done to the parents.
Jade Jaguar
Regular
Exactly! I've always thought the Drazi purple/green thing was a parody of sports rivalries, stupid and pointless as they are.
That’s an interestingly selective memory you have there.
You say Sinclair did not get involved in the murder during the “believers” episode because there is no on screen evidence to indicate charges where brought up. Which is fair enough.
BUT
You say things changed with the Drazi hoo-haa. But where is the on screen evidence that indicates that any of the Drazi was brought up on charges. Well there isn’t any. So how have things changed. Both committed murder neither were brought up on charges (on screen at least).
The difference is the Believers murder took place quietly in a room. The Drazi were fighting all over the station causing disruption and potentially causing a dangerous environment for everyone on the thing. Ivanova was already involved in trying to quite things down BEFORE the murders began, and that's what she was involved with, trying to stop them being a nuisance to everyone else. Not the murders.
Jade Jaguar
Regular
Well, in the US, doctors are required to accommodate religion as much as they can. But, parents are not allowed to let their children die for lack of a medical procedure because it violates their religion, in most cases, according to what I read in the press. But, such things are often taken to court. Pillow Rock is a lawyer. perhaps he can elaborate.
Gee, I seem to have started quite a controversy, with my simple wish to have seen them prosecuted. I think both sides have presented good arguments. I think I'll just have to watch B5 again, to make up my mind!
Cell
Regular
Actually no, Ivanova became involved before the murders and stayed involved after the murders, there's nothing selective about that. I don't know if they ended up being prosecuted to the fullest, and I never said that they were or that any charges were brought up against them. I did say however that Ivanova became involved in a supposed "internal matter" that wasn't doing anything but killing other Drazi and stayed involved and this does not jive with the notion that B5 will not get involved in the internal matters of other races, when she clearly did before the murders and stayed involved after the first set of murders were committed.
However the fact that Garibaldi got involved and that those Drazi were involved in the abduction of an EA officer would highly suggest to me that all of those who did not have diplomatic immunity would have been brought up on charges for violating B5 law.
GKarsEye
Regular
The point is that they're fun.
Jade Jaguar
Regular
Well, to a point, I suppose.
When I managed an apartment building on campus in Ann Arbor, it was typical to find our 20 or so trash cans hauled to the street, and dumped, after a big game. We have had stores, and cars, trashed after big games. Spray painting everything in sight is routine on campus. Of course, this doesn't compare to the sports hooligans they have in the UK, and some parts of Europe. The people who do those things think they are fun too, I suppose...
When I managed an apartment building on campus in Ann Arbor, it was typical to find our 20 or so trash cans hauled to the street, and dumped, after a big game. We have had stores, and cars, trashed after big games. Spray painting everything in sight is routine on campus. Of course, this doesn't compare to the sports hooligans they have in the UK, and some parts of Europe. The people who do those things think they are fun too, I suppose...
:thumbsup:You see, I can’t do that. A quick sentence that gets a very good point across very well. . . . . . . Bugger. I need to work on that.
GaribaldisHair
Regular
Well, the worst excesses of the English disease of football holliganism were, thankfully, consigned to history years ago, but back in the 80s running battles in the street over different football (soccer) teams were commonplace. Generally red and blue rather than green and purple.
And the whole point of Sheridan assigning Ivanova to get involvedi n the Drazi situation stemmed initally from his misunderstanding. She was assigned to act as peacemake in light of Babylon 5's goal of peace. They presumably thought there was some genuine dispute in here to be resolved. The goal wasn't interference, it was mediation in a dispute.
That there was no dispute beyond Green v Purple was something of a surprise.
The major difference between this case and the Believers situation is that the Drazi general election had the potentially to inflict genuine suffering and disruption on the non-Drazi residents of B5. That gives the station command a responsibility to get involved in making sure that doesn't happen.
And the whole point of Sheridan assigning Ivanova to get involvedi n the Drazi situation stemmed initally from his misunderstanding. She was assigned to act as peacemake in light of Babylon 5's goal of peace. They presumably thought there was some genuine dispute in here to be resolved. The goal wasn't interference, it was mediation in a dispute.
That there was no dispute beyond Green v Purple was something of a surprise.
The major difference between this case and the Believers situation is that the Drazi general election had the potentially to inflict genuine suffering and disruption on the non-Drazi residents of B5. That gives the station command a responsibility to get involved in making sure that doesn't happen.
PillowRock
Regular
Well, no, I don't believe that is a point that is so self-evient that it does not need to be established, actually.
In my opinion, a better analogy would be whether an American was subject to British or American law with respect to acts carried out inside the grounds of the American Embassy. And the answer to that is: American.
I'll grant you that's not a perfect analogy either.
A purer analogy is the UN "headquarters district". In that case, Section 9 of the (damn, I forget the actual title of that document that I just looked up) states:
.
So it is being treated as being the soveriegnty of the collective UN, not the US. And the UN headquarters would seem to me to be the nearest current Earth equivalent of Babylon 5.
Now, elsewhere in that same document it does go out its ay to state that for the purposes of criminal law the local US laws will apply. However, that is only true because the rest of the UN specifically signed off on it. And I strongly suspect that the rest of the nations only signed off on it because the actual "headquarters district" is far too small to contain their residences etc. In the case of B5, where the equivalent "headquarters district" is large enough to include all of the delegation residences *and* where the difference in basic criminal law figure to be more extreme ..... I can very easily see the members of the Council insisting on their own nationals being treated under their own law while on that neutral turf.
In terms of what we know from the show:
Babylon 5 is not entirely under the control of the Earth Alliance, there is at least some amount of shared control. If it was a purely Earth soveriegn base, then the Minbari would not have had veto power over who would be the on board administrator / commander.
Also, from the S2 opening credit monolog we know that B5 is considered to be in "neutral territory"; not a furthest outpost of the EA, or anything like that.
You seem to be assuming that any involvment at all equates to enforcing EA law, and I just don't see that.
Both before and after the killing begins, Ivanova is involved diplomatically. Neither before nor after the Drazi-Drazi killings on B5 does Ivanova act as law enforcement, collecting evidence in order to prove culpability at trial. (That would have been Garibaldi's job, anyway.)
Now when Garibaldi (or any Security) get involved to break up a destructive disturbance at a bar /casino / whatever, then those conditions have changed. At that point it is no longer entirely internal to the Drazi; it has involved others, if only those whose property was damaged. Certainly, once Ivanova is taken prisoner Garibaldi is *way* beyond looking at an entirely internal Drazi matter.
(Oh, and sorry, JJ. There must be some confusion over something. I'm not a lawyer.)
Jade Jaguar
Regular
I don't hate jocks, and I love sports... playing sports. I have played baseball, football, volleyball, done some canoeing, snorkeling, and lots of biking. It's sitting around watching sports, and getting all bent out of shape about them that I think is rather stupid. But, so long as it doesn't get out of hand, and other people enjoy it, fine, I have no objection. But, I still think the purple/green Drazi thing was a satire on sports.
Sorry, it must have been someone else I was thinking of...
Cell
Regular
And this is different from getting all bent out of shape over a piece of literature, a TV show, a movie, etc., how?
