B5:TLT - Show Discussion Thread (Spoilers)

[KoshN]

Thanks VL. I left the padding in because it's funny. Think of it as wearing two, if you know what I mean.

 

[ALeafOnTheWind]

Never again....Watched the 2 stories last night and was very disappointed. I was actually ashamed to let my wife see it after the all the hype. We both watch and love all five seasons, the made for tv movies and most of the books.
I will not spend $20.00 on future DVDs unless I get them in the dollar bin.
I am done with future B5 if this is all we get.
Please don't reply I will not answer.
Sorry.

I'm sure this won't be a popular opinion, but I have to agree with this person. TLT was a real disappointment. I watched it once and have not had the slightest urge to rewatch it.

 

[Recoil]

Hah! ALeafOnTheWind I like the handle.

 

[Recoil]

Not having read this entire thread yet to discuss the show (I've been busy) I guess I can somewhat see where people might be disappointed.

If you had expectations of a TV-movie type event like In the Beginning or A Call to Arms, then yes, you would be disappointed. But not in the work itself, only because you had set false expectations.

These were two short, intimate stories, dealing with 3 characters from B5verse. Thats it. Time wise, they were shorter than a TV episode. But they were nice stories, and I think the B5 characters slipped into their characters very well.

 

[RW7427]

Well, said, Recoil.

I happened to enjoy TLT. (Then again I love just about everything B5...even the Ranger movie. ) The part with Lochley and the priest was IMO a little weak, but the part with Sheridan, Galen, and Vintari makes up for it. Sure, TLT isn't on the level of one of the previous B5 movies, and it's not really meant to be, but it's still great viewing.

 

[Shabaz]

It really does seem that your opinion on TLT depends on with what perspective you approached. The glorious return of Babylon 5 the series that will now answer all the open questions, or an anthology show that would tell small b-stories and individual character focused tales, and might only eventually resolve some questions. I've you've been following with JMS actually said, you could've very much seen coming that it was going to be the latter. But I've actually seen some people genuinely upset at even the fact that they got two shorter episodes, where the 'original movie' seemed to indicate something else. I think WB too could've made it clearer that 1) this is an anthology show, and 2) that this _the start_ of an anthology show.

I mean, there are some legitimate issues beyond the format being misunderstood and the budgets being small, that people can take issue with. JMS did an adequate job directing with some nice moments here and there, but he really isn't quite as skilled as some of the directors B5 has had, in at least some of the more technical things of shooting a shot. And I get that some disliked the writing in 'Over Here', though I've seen both people who like it and dislike it say that it now was clear that the B5 universe contains the Christian god and the devil and the whole rest, where I honestly think they were watching a different episode than me.

But the really disappointed people seemed to expect something from TLT that was fundamentally different than it was intended to be. And I honestly can't blame them for expecting something different when WB hasn't really made an incredible effort to make clear that TLT is a different beast than the original, the 4 TNT movies, Crusade, and even the Rangers pilot.

You know what, let me copy-paste my Amazon review, which I thought nicely summed up my feelings on that aspect of this disc.

Interesting look at a new format in television being figured out

Babylon 5: The Lost Tales - Voices in the Dark is billed by WB as an original movie, but according to B5 writer and creator Straczynski, the Lost Tales is supposed to be an anthology show. Standalone stories, personally focussed, small scale. And that's exactly what we get; don't go in expecting arcs on the scale of the original show's Shadow War, or even Crusade's Drakh Plague. And don't go in expecting the ensemble cast of the original show either. Since these were the biggest strengths of original B5 the expectation might be logical, but it would lead to disappointment.

On top of this very different focus in format, it is evident that Straczynski, who also took on the director's role for this disc explicitly to figure out how to make the format work for future episodes, is very much still experimenting and feeling out boundaries. What is achievable with the tight budgets, what can be done with the extremely green-screen focused set work, and what type of stories would be appropriate for something that is supposed to have as unique a release schedule as this.

The stories become fairly condensed because of the format. The writer has had a tendency in the past to let some of his smaller idea based plots get away from him, and to some extent this is also present in the first plot, which features some slight dialog redundancies. But perhaps because of the limitations the writing in both stories maintains a fairly tight focus, getting to the point with mostly engaging dialog and storytelling.

The first story might not sit well with everyone, since it features a type of storytelling that while appropriate to the anthology format, feels a bit out of place in B5. It's still an interesting addition to the universe, and this anthology format does really call out for some experimenting with new story forms, even if some of those experiments may fail. The second story feels very old-school Babylon 5, marrying a personal moral dilemma with an event that could change everything on a galactic scale. And as with original B5, it features a lot of prophetic foreshadowing, without in the end actually resolving how the visions seen will pan out, leaving open some explicit and interesting hooks for future stories.

Most of this disc's problems are those of a production crew that is figuring out production issues and coming to grips with a new format, much like season 1 of the original show. In great contrast with something like Legend of the Rangers, TLT like the early days of the original does show evidence of having a good foundation at its core. (Rangers could have grown into something, but the pilot had serious problems conveying any sort of depth.) This is a good thing; the issue is one of "why didn't they go further" rather than "why did they bother at all". And a slow start doesn't have to be a bad thing, as the original show showed us.

Overall, this disc has left at least this viewer very hopeful for the future. Even with the constraints they had for the first offering they managed to produce something compelling. And production, scale, and budget issues are things that can be figured out. Which is something the production team seems to be pushing for, as evidenced by this quote I'll offer as closing:

"Any further B5 DVDs will depend on the sales, and on Warner Brothers giving us sufficient money to take the step of making any subsequent DVDs bigger than this one," says Straczynski. "This was kind of a test of the concept of making what is essentially a series on DVD, which hasn't really been done before. But it was a test, with a very modest budget. If we do more, they have to be done with a larger budget so we can involve more of our cast members, do bigger FX and locations and the like. If we can't keep making them better, then they shouldn't be done."

 

[RMcD]

I voted for your review!!

Highest sales rank I've seen so far on amazon.co.uk is 97, currently it's 104.

 

[Boxie]

I thought they were excellent short stories. I like the camera work, loved the visual effects, enjoyed seeing the characters that I love, and thought the actors played their parts very well and stayed very true to my memory of them.

I was especially touched and honored to understand the message behind JMS' words, as spoken by Lochley, noting that G'Kar and Dr. Franklin had gone exploring together beyond the Rim. It was important to him that they be included...it was important to me, as well. It just is not B5 without them. I also have to say that I hope someday we'll see Susan in a Lost Tales.

If had to relay an "issue" related to Voices in the Dark, it would have to be a kindhearted note regarding the lighting...the lighting in the hallway scenes...specifically the light that bounced off the priest's bald head and right into my eye! But you know we live and learn, and we now know that the next time we have a bald actor, we're going to need a little less wattage or a little more powder!

 

[Shabaz]

Speaking about lighting, I do like how dark VitD looked. If you look at the original show, you can kind of see how it get progressively brighter in its lighting as time goes on. The Gathering was shot really dark, maybe a bit too much, season 1 had a really nice look I thought. For season 2 they bumped the f-stops a bit which I didn't mind. But by season 5, the look had gotten brighter quite a bit, which sort of fitted for the story, but I really liked the tone it started with. It's purely a matter of aestetics and personal taste, but I enjoyed TLT looking nice and dark again.

 

[raw_bean]

That was a really good review, Shabaz. Very articulate and well thought out, and I agree pretty strongly with most of your points.

 

[Mutai Sho-Rin]

You said what I would have said - only you said it better.

 

[admiraldave]

I borrowed TLT from a friend, and I'm definitely going to go buy my own copy, because I really liked it. Some of B5's finest moments have a real stage/theatrical feel to them, like Londo asking G'Kar to sign a joint statement in "No Surrender, No Retreat", and TLT has that same feeling to it. It felt less like a pair of short television episodes than it felt like a pair of one act plays.

The cast was uniformly excellent, the old characters slipping effortlessly back into their skins, and some good performances from the new actors. Keegan McIntosh deserves a special note here, as I would love to see Dius Vintari return in more stories. I'd like to see him and David interact. Maybe Vintari joins the Rangers?

If I had a qualm with TLT, it's how utterly predictable the two stories were. The plot was highly telegraphed, especially the first one with Lochley. I had a pretty good idea of the "demon's" scheme as soon as he said let's get right to this exorcism. But, I would call it a minor qualm, as the stories move well enough; it wasn't like I had to wait for long for the characters to catch up.

On a more shallow note, seeing Babylon 5 with the sharper graphics was worth the price of the DVD alone. It's gorgeous. The brief battle sequence watching Warlocks dueling the Centauri fleet was also beautifully done.

 

[KoshN]

I thought they were excellent short stories. I like the camera work,

You liked the tilty camera work in Burke's cell, first tilting slowly left 90 degrees, and then slowly tilting right 90 degrees, as it panned around him? I thought it was shot on a ship in heavy seas. C'mon. That was a little much. Kinda reminded me of Sheridan's drug induced view of Garibaldi, Franklin and Lyta as they were rescuing him from Clark's interrogators in Season 4.

 

[Chilli]

You liked the tilty camera work in Burke's cell, first tilting slowly left 90 degrees, and then slowly tilting right 90 degrees, as it panned around him? I thought it was shot on a ship in heavy seas. C'mon. That was a little much. Kinda reminded me of Sheridan's drug induced view of Garibaldi, Franklin and Lyta as they were rescuing him from Clark's interrogators in Season 4.

Though at least that was fitting, both dramatically and story-wise. Also, it was well-done, unlike the camera work in Burke's cell.

My throughts on TLT in general ..

I would say "mixed feelings", but that isn't really true. My feelings are quite homogeneously separated. While I love the second story, the first story felt like the worst thing ever to come out of the B5 universe.

Story 1:
Though I supremely disliked Tracy Scoggins on B5, I got to kind-of-almost like her as a supporting character on Crusade. Partly because she was a supporting character only, I guess, and partly because she and Gary Cole played off eachother well.

Here though .. eugh. Trying to have her carry a story .. not a good idea. First problem of the story, for me.

Then .. the religious stuff. I quite liked the way JMS handled religion, science and "magic" on B5, and the interaction between them. JMS' interest in religon never became obtrusive, was usually interesting, and certainly never boring.

This, though, felt like sitting through a bloody sermon. An extremely long-winded sermon, about nothing that is particularly interesting. The long dialogue scenes in the cell made my mind wander like boring lessons in school did. Babylon 5 NEVER did this for me.


Add the horrible camera work, and the general feeling of "yawn". The only redeeming factor the first story had for me was one good line of dialogue.

Story 2:
Now that's more like it.

If I had been expecting to "get my show back", or expecting something grand, something like a telemovie, I probably would have been supremely disappointed. Fortunately, I wasn't. I was expecting a tiny little nostalgia trip, which is just what JMS - and Bruce Boxleitner - were doing here. Excpetionally well. I've faced the fact that "getting my show back", properly, just isn't possible. Babylon 5 is a story that has been told, anything that will come is bonus. And in this case, quite pleasing bonus.

The plot was mediocre, really. "Would you kill Hitler as a baby, if you could?" is such a clichee plot line, but .. who cares? It's just so damned much *fun*. Bruce Boxleitner did a great job at playing an older, meaner, and infinitely more amusing Sheridan.

Vintari was quite a nice new character, and I would not mind to see more of him.

 

[Skander]

First time poster on the site. The quality of discussion here is very impressive, kudos to the moderators and members. On to the discussion:
=======================================================

I've been a fan of Babylon 5 since I was introduced to it back in 1997 by a friend via VHS who received the tapes from another friend who recorded from a satelite feed of PTEN (all before the time of DirectTV, Comcast, etc.). When the show was picked up by TNT, I proceeded to record every episode in order and still have that prized collection on Polaroid tapes. When the DVDs were released througout 2002-2003, I bought every season, the pilot DVD, the Movies collection, and the Crusade spinoff. My favorite all-time episode is B5 Episode 1: "Midnight on the Firing Line" and I've seen it so often, I could probably recite the entire episode word for word. I consider JMS one of the most brilliant creative minds in entertainment and needless to say Babylon 5 is my favorite show of all time and there really isn't a close second. I have to talk about my background with the show so that its understood the reason I get so disappointed at efforts like The Lost Tales. Since there has been ample discussion of the two plotlines themselves throughout these 22 pages, I'll stick to the reasons I thought the effort fell short. Although I do agree with the majority that the second was a better story than the first.

I somewhat understand the reason behind the dual episodic format being a slight homage to the old Twilight Zone's show that JMS claims to be a big fan of. I don't think it was right for the kind of richness of character and subtle twist of plot that were hallmarks of the original show, that I've come to expect....that I had become used to taking for granted. These stories were blind stabs into the universe of Babylon 5 and the characters that inhabit it. In and of themselves they are forced to move forward without much consequence, precedent, or emotional investment. I think this format made the challenging task of creating a story that embodies the strongest points of the orginal show that much harder . I wonder if it were just 1 hour and a half story instead of two 40 minute stories, if it would have flowed and resonated better.

Babylon 5 has such a rich and diverse universe, with long developed plot threads that have either not been completely fulfilled, or have not been show on-screen. It's puzzling to me that JMS treats his universe much like a child afraid of the swimming pool. He dips his foot pensively into the water before jerking it back out again instead of taking the cannonball off the diving board that will get everyone around the pool wet.

Why are we studying a day in the life of Lochley and how she deals with a pseudo-half-demon, half-alien, ambiguous, semi-religious entity when we could be seeing the direct after-math of the bombing of Centauri Prime by Narn-Drazi forces, how Vir copes with being ambassador on the station post-Season 5, how Lyta and her telepaths confront Bester and the Psi-Corps, how the training of Pak-Ma-Ra, Drazi, etc. is progressing on Minbar, how did Valen oversee the sweeping changes to Minbari civilization in the aftermath of the last great war, how did a young G'Kar escape slavery and become the important ambassador of the Kha-Ri we were introduced to in the beginning, how did the Narns manage to overthrow the Centauri over a Century ago....on and on and on. I understand people like Peter David and J. Gregory Keyes did a fabulous job novelizing some of these events but I want to see how JMS would handle them. What characters would he accentuate, how would he write the dialogue, how would he connect the disparate plotlines and threads amongst the chaos.

Some will respond and say that this is impossible for the scope and frameword of this DVD anthology series; JMS would need an entire other TV series to delve into these details. I respectfully disagree and point to one of the shows greates achievements in my estimation--The Movie "In the Beginning." This made-for-TV, sci-fi niche movie ranks right up there with any theatrical release you want to discuss in my book. True I'm tainted with my Babylon 5 fervor, but should think it would have been one of the best movies I'd seen even if I didn't know B5 existed. JMS and the Productions crew achieved everything I could want and ask for from a one-shot---and unfortunately for them I KNOW what they're capable of with a 1.5 hour running time and TV scale budget. And why I get so frustrated with River of Souls, and to a lesser extent Thirdspace, and now The Lost Tales.

I'm loyal to Babylon 5 so I'm going to watch it again and I'm sure it will grow on me over time. Much like the pilot did, "The Gathering", and Crusade (which took 7 years before I could bring myself to watch the series through to the end). In fact some time this week I'm probably going to meader over to Best Buy and get the DVD (I watched my friend's copy). But I can't help but thirst for MORE and BETTER. Babylon 5 set an extremely high bar and I've noticed that JMS and crew have had a difficult time reaching that bar more often than not.

 

[AntonyF]

Just my views quickly. Glancing over the thread, I can see I'm not the only one to raise some or if not all of these points.

I was actually quite disappointed. I had high hopes, because I think JMS is so much better than what he delivered here. The stories were just so.... "yeah, so what?"

The low budget really does show, i.e. a couple of rooms and two corridors. But it's not just about that, that can't be an excuse. When the right actors work together you can get amazingly involving scenes (i.e. Bruce and Peter's main scene).

But for all the B5 universe to choose from, I don't know why these were the best JMS could come up with. Surely there must be some stuff in the tapestry that we could find more about? These seem to be very standalone, as if new viewers could watch them. But let's face it, it's established fans that are going to buy this.

Seeing B5 itself was fantastic, didn't it look great? But without people on board, C&C, the Zocalo, more cast... it felt like an empty shell. Like you'd peel back a wall and nothing would be there. A big charade. I never felt that with B5 the series. It always felt ALIVE.

I hope it leads to more... maybe JMS needs to get his mojo back and a bit more budget. Maybe he's not really capable/willing to do a big story in 70 minutes, because he's used to writing in seasons not minutes.

Just... I thought he could do better, that's all. With all this time away, there was nothing more...?

 

[Sindatur]

He never said it was going to be afull length story, he has maintained it would be little side stories. Also, the show has been off the map for so many years, nothing reamins of the original sets and so forth, so with the budget for one episode he couldn't possibly repopulate the universe. Look how the original series was done, one set per episode, which meant he didn't have money for "Big CGI". He couldn't afford the "Big CGI" episodes until he had sets already built from earlier episodes

 

[vacantlook]

...how did a young G'Kar escape slavery and become the important ambassador of the Kha-Ri we were introduced to in the beginning....

Just a reminder, there's no way that jms would write a story for the large or small screen and have G'Kar or Franklin in it now. As jms has said, "as long as Andreas and Rick insist on staying dead...."

 

[Skander]

I did say young G'Kar. You could cast someone different and explain it as the difference in age. Although I agree, I wouldn't wish to be the one that had to reprise the role of G'Kar after Andreas Katsulas. Goodness talk about big shoes to fill.

 

[vacantlook]

It doesn't matter if he is younger than he was on the show, it's still G'Kar and it would still be putting someone other than Andreas into the roll. It won't happen as Andreas meant too much to jms to replace him period.