B5:TLT - Show Discussion Thread (Spoilers)

[Sindatur]

If that is so, the how the heck did Minbari DNA get in fully-human Sinclair when he was scanned at the Battle of the Line long before his having ever come close to becoming Valen? No, it detected human DNA. When it was used to scan a Minbari, it detected remnant human DNA spread into their species from Valen, and when it was used to scan a human, it detected their human DNA.

EDIT: I see Ranger1 beat me to it while I was busy typing.



Could they have a Valen-class cruiser and a Valen-class destroyer? Heck, given what Dulann says about how obnoxious to a Minbari the Valen looks, maybe the Minbari revolted (not really, but you get the idea) and forced a redesign for what would constitute the Valen-class ships in order to fit their preferred aesthetic.

Was it specifically Human DNA or Sinclair's DNA? Sinclair's DNA would be the Human DNA that filtered through Minbari Society from Valen. Also, I thought I recalled it was only select HUmans the Trilum reacted to, so, therefore those Humans with Sinclair's families Genetic traits?

 

[vacantlook]

Was it specifically Human DNA or Sinclair's DNA? Sinclair's DNA would be the Human DNA that filtered through Minbari Society from Valen. Also, I thought I recalled it was only select HUmans the Trilum reacted to, so, therefore those Humans with Sinclair's families Genetic traits?

I don't remember the triluminary being used to scan any humans that it didn't react to. I remember Lennier saying that they pulled in Sinclair, scaned him, were surprised, pulled in other humans, scanned them, were further surprised, and that's all I remember in terms of the triluminary scanning humans.

 

[Ranger1]

I don't remember the triluminary being used to scan any humans that it didn't react to. I remember Lennier saying that they pulled in Sinclair, scaned him, were surprised, pulled in other humans, scanned them, were further surprised, and that's all I remember in terms of the triluminary scanning humans.

fact is it could be either, we can only speculate as the triluminaries were never actually explained. what do we know about them? they are among the oldest minbari artifacts, legend says they also come from a time far in the future, when Ranger1 takes them back and that they can detect (delete as appropriate) human DNA/sinclairs DNA.

 

[Dangerousapple]

fact is it could be either, we can only speculate as the triluminaries were never actually explained. what do we know about them? they are among the oldest minbari artifacts, legend says they also come from a time far in the future, when Ranger1 takes them back and that they can detect (delete as appropriate) human DNA/sinclairs DNA.

Do we actually know the triluminary detects DNA? Is there proof within the episodes that tell us this? Not to my knowledge (but I could be wrong). To me recollections, these are the facts:

• Sinclair uses the triluminary to become a Minbari. To accomplish this, it changes his DNA;
• Delenn uses the triluminary to become a human. Again, it changes her DNA;
• The triluminary lights up when near to humans, and certain Minbari who are decedents of Valen/Sinclair;
• The Minbari believe the triluminary detects 'greater' Minbari souls.

Sure, it is proven as a fact the device can change people at a genetic level. This does not necessarily rule out that it can detect someone’s soul. All religion is based on the belief that we are not merely the sum of our molecules, that we also have a soul. Following this train of thought, a device that changes one's DNA, would also change his soul. To my mind, whether the triluminary detects DNA or souls is left open for interpretation.

This thread has seen a lengthy discussion on the religious connotations of TLT - and whether it proves God exists in the B5 universe or just shows us religious people who believe they have found proof.

I feel TLT shows us the latter. I also feel the same can be said about the Triluminary, nothing is proven. That's what's great about the way JMS writes. He's not out to prove or disprove belief structures (Christian or Minbari).

 

[vacantlook]

Do we actually know the triluminary detects DNA? Is there proof within the episodes that tell us this? Not to my knowledge (but I could be wrong). To me recollections, these are the facts:

• Sinclair uses the triluminary to become a Minbari. To accomplish this, it changes his DNA;
• Delenn uses the triluminary to become a human. Again, it changes her DNA;
• The triluminary lights up when near to humans, and certain Minbari who are decedents of Valen/Sinclair;
• The Minbari believe the triluminary detects 'greater' Minbari souls.

Sure, it is proven as a fact the device can change people at a genetic level. This does not necessarily rule out that it can detect someone’s soul. All religion is based on the belief that we are not merely the sum of our molecules, that we also have a soul. Following this train of thought, a device that changes one's DNA, would also change his soul. To my mind, whether the triluminary detects DNA or souls is left open for interpretation.

Delenn's discoveries and discussions in "Atonement" show her abandoning the belief that humans have Minbari souls. It is revealed that Dukhat told her that she was a child of Valen after her having been scanned by the triluminary. When she confronts those Minbari who are condemning her for her having become human and her growing closeness to Sheridan and claiming that they must keep the Minbari species genetically pure, she turns it back on them that the Minbari species hasn't been pure since Valen because of Valen having been originally human. The head of the group of Minbari that's challenging Delenn on the situation eventually admits that they know that and that human DNA is now in so many Minbari that if that information were to get out that it would shatter their social stability. We can know that the triluminary detects human DNA because of the two pieces of information that Delenn uses to reveal the long-hidden fact that many Minbari have human DNA. Dukhat tells Delenn that she's a child of Valen because the triluminary glowed for her. Delenn takes that piece of knowledge and adds it to knowing that the triluminary powers the Chrysalis Device to cause a major genetic change to a person; aside from Valen, she of all people knows from experience that the triluminary is a genetic device. Occam's Razor would say that given that the triluminary is shown to be a genetic device, that it would then detect genetics and not souls when it's used to scan.

 

[n_stock]

Not to stop this whole 'soul' discussion, I thought it might be helpful to quote some of jms's own statements of his beliefs on this topic.

Nov. 30 1999:

>What do *you* think souls are? I would never 'define' souls, but since you
>didn't say you outright did not believe in souls, your belief must go at
>least to a certain point.

But of course the definition is key to asking and answering the question.
Unless one can say what one means one can never mean what one says. If you're
talking about an immortal soul that goes to heaven or hell...then my answer is
no. If you're talking about the personality, as in "she's a very soulful
person," or having a lot of soul in one's work...then that's a whole different
*concept*, and in that case being more psychological than spiritual, then the
answer is yes.

As someone else once said...god is in the details. Literally, in this
discussion.


jms

(jmsatb5@aol.com)
B5 Official Fan Club at:
http://www.thestation.com

Mar. 18, 2006:

> Hi Joe,
>
> Please forgive me if I'm completely impertinent, but there are a few
> things I've always wondered regarding your take on the cosmology of the
> world.
>
> How's that for an opener?
>
> So as you've noted many times, you are an atheist. But I've wondered -- while you may not > believe in the existence of God, as many religions and philosophies do not, do you believe in > the existence of the supernatural or paranormal? Of souls? Of an afterlife?

It's not that cut-and-dried, from my side of things, at least. If by
soul you mean a single entity that arises upon death wholecloth, and an
after life as a place you go to amidst singing cherupim and
seraphim...then the answer is no.

If by soul you mean consciousness, awarness, that is not necessarily
specific to one person in its beginning and ending, that arises from
around us like a cup of water pulled from a lake, and returns to that
lake when there is no longer need for the cup, then we might have
something on which to base a conversation.

I've quietly voiced some of my assumptions in the show -- with the soul
as a non-localized phenomenon, for instance -- and there's a lot of it
in the Foundation document that I wrote and which informed both the
Minbari belief system and Dr. Franklin's Foundationist ideas, but I'm
still debating about releasing all of that.

jms

 

[Dangerousapple]

Occam's Razor would say that given that the triluminary is shown to be a genetic device, that it would then detect genetics and not souls when it's used to scan.

Well, that kinda was my point. I am not saying the soul is something that can be quantified, because it can't be. There is no proof of the soul. That is where faith comes in.

All religions agree: where there is living human DNA, there is a human soul. You can't have one without the other. By extending this belief structure to the fictional B5 universe, we come to the conclusion: where there is Minbari DNA, there is a Minbari soul. If one were to change his DNA, one proposes his soul will also be affected.

Delenn's discoveries and discussions in "Atonement" show her abandoning the belief that humans have Minbari souls.

For the abovementioned reasons, I don't think she has abandoned her belief. Why? Because DNA has been intermixing, therefore causing the souls to mix.

All of the above is faith, not fact. I am aware of this.
I am merely stating the facts of the episodes do not denounce faith in transferring souls.

edit: I'm adding the following to further clarify my viewpoint. Does the triluminary detect DNA? Well, yes it does. However, taking in account the belief that living DNA has a soul 'attached' to it - this would also mean it detects a soul. Living DNA = the parts necessary to have a soul.

In much the same way, one can say the construct 'table' exists because you scientifically detect a wooden desktop with four wooden legs (wooden desktop + four wooden legs = table).

 

[vacantlook]

...where there is Minbari DNA, there is a Minbari soul....

So then, are you saying the triluminary detects human souls and not Minbari souls because at the time the Minbari scan Sinclair at the Battle of the Line he's fully human, and thus under your statement quoted above, he can't have a Minbari soul.

edit: I'm adding the following to further clarify my viewpoint. Does the triluminary detect DNA? Well, yes it does. However, taking in account the belief that living DNA has a soul 'attached' to it - this would also mean it detects a soul. Living DNA = the parts necessary to have a soul.

You're saying that because the triluminary detects DNA that it's detecting a soul, but in doing so you're adding something to the equation that's completely unnecessary. If the triluminary detects DNA, then it simply detects DNA. If it detects souls, then it's not detecting DNA, it's detecting souls. Detecting DNA does not mean it's detecting a soul, it's detecting DNA.

 

[Dangerousapple]

Do we actually know the triluminary detects DNA? Is there proof within the episodes that tell us this?

I forgot to mention this in my previous post: you have proved me wrong on this point. However, this does not affect the remainder of my argument.

So then, are you saying the triluminary detects human souls and not Minbari souls because at the time the Minbari scan Sinclair at the Battle of the Line he's fully human, and thus under your statement quoted above, he can't have a Minbari soul.

I have never said the triluminary detects Minbari souls. I have stated it is a device that transforms DNA. If you believe in the existence of a soul, this by extension means it transforms his soul. Why does it react to Sinclair? As you have pointed out to me: because of his dna. BUT:

You're saying that because the triluminary detects DNA that it's detecting a soul, but in doing so you're adding something to the equation that's completely unnecessary. If the triluminary detects DNA, then it simply detects DNA. If it detects souls, then it's not detecting DNA, it's detecting souls. Detecting DNA does not mean it's detecting a soul, it's detecting DNA.

I personally don't believe people have a soul. However, there are others that do. To a religious person, the following equation applies:

• living human dna = the presence of a human soul

Applying this to the B5 universe gets us:

• living minbari dna = the presence of a minbari soul
• changing your human dna to minbari dna = changing your human soul to a minbari soul

Does the triluminary detect dna? Yes. As you have pointed out, Atonement makes this clear. However to a religious person, the soul exists because of dna. A religious person believes that when you detect dna, you also detect a soul.

Science does not debunk religion.
Lack of faith debunks religion.

 

[KoshN]

how do you work that out man? when Delenn joined the council she held her hand before it and it glowed, the other members were surprised and Dukhat said that it had never happened before, thus it would have detected the minute levels of human DNA she has because she is a child of Valen

If that is so, the how the heck did Minbari DNA get in fully-human Sinclair when he was scanned at the Battle of the Line long before his having ever come close to becoming Valen? No, it detected human DNA. When it was used to scan a Minbari, it detected remnant human DNA spread into their species from Valen, and when it was used to scan a human, it detected their human DNA.

EDIT: I see Ranger1 beat me to it while I was busy typing.

Oh Crap! I screwed up. It detected remnants of Valen's DNA in both humans (Sinclair and others) and in Delenn (a child of Valen).

Could they have a Valen-class cruiser and a Valen-class destroyer?

That way leads ot chaos. The Minbari like order, not chaos.

 

[Sindatur]

Oh Crap! I screwed up. It detected remnants of Valen's DNA in both humans (Sinclair and others) and in Delenn (a child of Valen).




That way leads ot chaos. The Minbari like order, not chaos.

I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if the Minbari simply "forgot" the flying brick existed, or called it a Proto-type or some other excuse for not acknowledging it as the first ship in the Valen class. Although the Minbari never lie, they never tell you the whole truth

 

[RMcD]

All religions agree: where there is living human DNA, there is a human soul. You can't have one without the other.

I don't really follow that, isn't the whole point of most religions exactly the opposite? And why single out DNA (which in any case isn't alive)?

Based on what Delenn and Lennier say in Passing Through Gethsemane, Minbari believe that the soul is a non-localised phenomenon. It's a projection from somewhere else and does not exist inside the body. Changing the body should have no effect on the soul.

 

[RMcD]

Incidentally, I also think the ambiguity works fine.

If you follow the DNA explanation, the triluminary is attuned to Sinclair's DNA because the last use to which it was put was transforming him into a hybrid. It responds to Delenn because she is his descendant, and to other humans who are genetically close to him.

If you follow the souls explanation, it responds to Sinclair's soul because he is Valen, the greatest of Minbari souls. But souls are reincarnated from one generation to the next, and Lennier is careful to say in Points of Departure that Minbari souls are being reborn in whole or in part in human bodies. This suggests that Minbari do not view the relationship between souls and bodies as one-to-one, but instead think of them as able to be split or merged as they are reincarnated (much like DNA). In this scenario, the triluminary responds to Delenn because her soul contains a reincarnated fragment of Sinclair's (even though she may not literally be his descendent), and to other humans because they possess pieces of Minbari greater souls reincarnated.

 

[vacantlook]

...I have stated it is a device that transforms DNA. If you believe in the existence of a soul, this by extension means it transforms his soul....

Why? What sources cause you to think that a soul is connected to the existence of DNA? I know of nothing in B5 or in general religious concepts that says the soul is attached to DNA. Where did you get this idea -- from your own independent thought?

...To a religious person, the following equation applies:

• living human dna = the presence of a human soul

Not necessarily, at all. I would say that people who believe that humans have souls do so because they believe humans have souls, not because they have DNA.

...However to a religious person, the soul exists because of dna. A religious person believes that when you detect dna, you also detect a soul.

What religions present that idea? I have heard of no religions, nor of religious people or non-religious people say they believe a person has a soul because they have DNA, especially since the belief in souls vastly predates the knowledge of the existence of DNA.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

I personally don't believe people have a soul. However, there are others that do. To a religious person, the following equation applies:

• living human dna = the presence of a human soul

Applying this to the B5 universe gets us:

• living minbari dna = the presence of a minbari soul
• changing your human dna to minbari dna = changing your human soul to a minbari soul

Does the triluminary detect dna? Yes. As you have pointed out, Atonement makes this clear. However to a religious person, the soul exists because of dna. A religious person believes that when you detect dna, you also detect a soul.

I see what you are getting at, but you have presented it in a convoluted, and actually unsupportable manner. If yiou want to say that humans have human DNA, and "religious" people, presumably Christians, believe humans have souls, thus they believe a being with human DNA has a soul, fine. But that isn't really what you said. A tissue culture has living human DNA, and I'm sure that not even the most hard-core "right-to-life" type would say it had a soul, unless maybe it was made from an embryo.

Further, I do wonder what any Christian, fundementalist or not, would say about a chimp-human hybrid, such as the Russians have reputedly made? Would they say it had a soul? Then, extrapolate that to a human-alien hybrid. I think most Christians today would call such things abominations, not humans with souls. But of course, if we ever make it into space, and meet other sentients, hopefully we will have evolved beyond that, at least socially. But, it would surprise me if we did. Well, maybe in centuries...

 

[A_M_Swallow]

DNA is not a soul. It is body assembly instructions.

 

[Dangerousapple]

I made an error in phrasing with my dna analogy. What I really was getting at is: If you are a human being and if you are alive - you have a soul that is connected to your body.

Jade Jaguar actually worded my thoughts more coherently:

If yiou want to say that humans have human DNA, and "religious" people, presumably Christians, believe humans have souls, thus they believe a being with human DNA has a soul, fine.

"a being with human DNA has a soul" more eloquently states were I was getting at.

As for the Triluminary, it clearly has features that are scientifically certifiable. However, this does not denounce its religious meaning to certain people.

 

[Sisko]

Never again....Watched the 2 stories last night and was very disappointed. I was actually ashamed to let my wife see it after the all the hype. We both watch and love all five seasons, the made for tv movies and most of the books.
I will not spend $20.00 on future DVDs unless I get them in the dollar bin.
I am done with future B5 if this is all we get.
Please don't reply I will not answer.
Sorry.

 

[KoshN]

Well, there's one end of the spectrum.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Well, there's one end of the spectrum.

Well said!