B5:TLT - Show Discussion Thread (Spoilers)

[Recoil]

After reading the other "Discussion" thread, I thought it might be a better idea to have a thread that discusses the show, not the making of the show. Since that other thread is already 800+ posts long, I think a new thread just discussing the show itself might be easier on everyone's eyes.

I haven't seen it yet, but here are a couple posts from those who have. Feel free to add comments and discuss as you get your DVDs.

Having just watched TLT I thought I would chip-in with my £0.02. SPOILERS abound!!! You have been warned...

First, I want to say that the look and feel of this production is amazing. It really feels like a return to the original series, but with updated CGI effects.

The problems I have with TLT are mainly with the first story. The station feels VERY empty, which is surprising considering the fact that a large celebration, involving the President of the IA and several ambassadors/representatives, is about to be thrown. The story is also dialogue heavy, which made the pacing slow, and I felt my mind wandering a couple of times.

Both of these problems are relatively minor compared to the next problem I had - religion is dealt with in very definitive terms during the course of the story, especially in the final minutes. This really surprised me. One of the things I loved about the original B5 series proper was the fact that JMS was always careful in presenting such issues as god, heaven, hell, the soul, etc in a manner that encouraged the viewer to think for him/herself and come to their own conclusions. There was never a "yes" or "no" answer. However, we are now expected to accept that an evil soul HAS possessed someone on B5, there IS a hell on Earth, and God HAS previously confined this soul to Earth. And the characters accept these facts with no reservation and with no possibility of any other explanation. This left me feeling a little uncomfortable.

The second story is simply AWESOME. There's a great chemistry between Galen and Sheridan, as they refer to each other as old acquaintances (if not friends). There's some very nice little touches here and there, including a neat reference to G'Kar and Franklin, which were dropped into the story for the specific benefit of long-time B5 fans. There's also some great darkness and humour in equal measure. This story just feels RIGHT.

The only problem I had with the second story is the very sudden and surprising emergence of a new type of Hyperspace, called 'Quantum Space'. Why have we never heard of this before, in SiL for example (for the same journey from Minbar to B5)? It adds no real benefit to the story and almost feels like something JMS dropped in just so he could set-up a couple of jokes. However, this was a minor complaint with an otherwise great story.

Finally, there is a conversation towards the end of this story which gives a hint at a possible future TLT (a direct sequel of sorts). In any event, I look forward to the release of more of these 'Lost Tales'.

Just a couple of points of interest (more SPOILERS)....

It is stated during the second story that Vir is second in line to the Centauri throne, with Prince Vintari third in line.

Doesn't Londo state during the course of the series proper that the position is heriditary? Also, I'm not sure how Vir being second in line during this time period fits in with the Legions of Fire trilogy (if at all).

More spoilers...

I don't recall Londo talking about the Emperor being a hereditary possition but the Regen refers to it. Londo *did* mention that he thought the Centaurum might well abolish the position after him, though. Could be that when Londo didn't have any heirs, the Centaurum found it necessary to establish a line of succession. Plus, Vintari is third in line so the position will, in theory be reverting back to the royal family.

 

[b4bob]

I wonder why the traffic is so light here? Copies of TLT are flooding the internets, and barely anyone here has seen it? Oh well, here are my 2 cents…

(sorry this is so long--I just started writing, and couldn’t stop)

The good: It is very difficult to fault this production on a technical level. The pure FX and comp shots are beautiful. I wish we could see all of B5 look this good. I have mentioned here before that there was a burgeoning community of would-be CG artists that sprouted from a love of B5 back in the day. Now many of those computer artists helped create the new FX, and it shows. Unlike Legend of the Rangers, this feels like B5, but better. Tuzanor even looks like Tuzanor, not Blade Runner-Land.

There are many great shots where live action is composited into a CG background, and these are so much more convincing than they ever were in the series. One particularly amazing shot starts behind Sheridan’s starfurry, and the camera swings around to reveal live-action footage of Bruce Boxleitner in the cockpit. The shot is totally convincing, and is something they never would have been able to pull of in the old days. The scenes in the beautiful new docking bay CG set have a certain video game cut-scene quality to them, but so did almost all of the Star Wars prequels, so I guess it can be forgiven.

Another thing I loved was Peter Woodward/Galen. I know plenty of people who don’t care for the actor and/or the character, but to me, he was always one of the few actors who can take JMS’s often clunky, exposition-heavy dialog and make it sing like music. He’s great in this, and he seems to be acting in a different production than everyone else.

One other thing that surprised me was JMS as a director. He seems to have a good eye for composition and camera movement. There were a few shots or cuts that were great. I think with some more practice, he could become a good director. Not all was great on the JMS front, though. And this leads to…

The Bad: JMS often seems like he doesn’t quite understand the medium he is writing for. I think with filmed entertainment, you should strive to show, not tell. You should let the pictures and the cutting from one picture to the next tell most of the story. Here, as in most of B5, JMS opts to tell us everything instead. He gives up scenes that go on for pages of characters talking to each other. When they aren’t doing that (or sometimes even when they are) we get lengthy monologs or soliloquies instead. The script could very easily be a radio drama. Just rip the soundtrack from the DVD, stick it on your iPod, listen with headphones, and you’d get about 98% of the story perfectly.

His direction often matches his writing in this regard. He very rarely tells the story with images. What we mostly get is: master shot, medium shot of character A, medium shot of character B, repeat. To see what I mean about telling the story visually, go back and watch the famous scene in The Fall of Night where Sheridan ends up floating in the core of B5. In that scene, apparently planned shot-for-shot by JMS himself, the story is told one shot at a time with dialog added only when necessary. We get nothing even remotely as compelling as that here.

And I guess my overall problem with TLT is that I was just kinda bored. JMS has this vast, rich universe to play with and we get two pretty ho-hum stories. Maybe if these things came out fairly quickly, or maybe if there wasn’t such build-up, I wouldn’t have minded so much. But I was eagerly waiting for new B5--real B5. And all I got were stories of characters dealing with moral dilemmas, and not very interesting ones at that.

If you have the first volume of JMS’s script books, at the bottom of page 38 you’ll see JMS say about Infection, “…[ I ] decided to have our hero basically talk the enemy to death, about which the less said the better.” And I realized that is pretty much what happens in the Lochley story. Now I’m not saying TLT is as bad as Infection, but they do come off as pretty mediocre non-arc episodes of the series. Hopefully future DVD’s will be more interesting, especially now that some of the production groundwork has been laid (like the creation of some great, hi-rez CG sets and models). Though I am worried that the underwhelming aspect of this production is not exactly going to set the DVD-buying public on fire.

FORGOT TO ADD: If you acquired this like I did, via less than savory means, please buy the DVD also. We need to make sure JMS has a chance to tell some more interesting stories in the future.

 

[Bester]

JMS loves his wideshots. There's a couple of scenes in TLT which start with a wideshot and don't change to a closeup until WAYYYY after you expect it to. Not really a complaint, just something I noticed.

Also, b4bob, did you notice the hideous horizontal flip of Sheridan about halfway through his first conversation with Lochley (when he is still on his ship and she is on the viewscreen)? I found it rather distracting.

 

[b4bob]

...Also, b4bob, did you notice the hideous horizontal flip of Sheridan about halfway through his first conversation with Lochley (when he is still on his ship and she is on the viewscreen)? I found it rather distracting.

No I didn't notice it. I'll need to go check.

I can't believe we're the only two talking about this, Bester! Where is everybody?

 

[Bester]

Where is everybody?

No idea. I'm just glad that I've finally found someone else who has seen it and I can chat to about it!

Another question for you...

During the first sequence with Galen and Sheridan, the former gives the latter a necklace. Any idea what the significance of the necklace is? Or was it given simply to prove that he wasn't having a dream (Sheridan awoke with it around his neck)?

 

[b4bob]

Or was it given simply to prove that he wasn't having a dream (Sheridan awoke with it around his neck)?

Yeah, that's what I thought.

 

[Bester]

It just seemed like a funny thing to do, baring in mind that Sheridan just convinced Galen that he knows the difference between "dream real and real real".

Another scene that seemed a bit odd to me was Vintari telling Sheridan about Londo cracking a joke and walking "out of the room laughing". Is this the same Londo that Sheridan just dramatically told the ISN reporter was no longer in any mood for laughter?

 

[crazyhorse]

Whats with the big letters

 

[Bester]

Ehhhh.....I think someone has forgotten to take their meds again.

 

[Chilli]

If people have to spam the board in huge letters, could they at least do it with better grammar??

In any case, admin alerted and set onto the spam, so to anyone but the last two posters, the last two posts will be a bit confusing

 

[crazyhorse]

Grammar police should be shot at birth.

Then jumped on

 

[Chilli]

Your only saying that because you're grammer suck's

 

[crazyhorse]

I hope that they are deliberate mistakes

 

[Chilli]

Not even I could suck quite that much unintentionally.

 

[Dangerousapple]

Great remarks, b4bob and bester. I totally agree with the both of you, so I won't reiterate your comments but will add a few of my own. A couple of months ago, I posted a thread discussing my 'low excitement level' for TLT. Based on what I heard of JMS's intentions for small stories, I just couldn't get excited for it. I felt that I should, B5 being my favorite series of all time, but I never really got jazzed about it.

What JMS always did right in the series was the big picture, long-running arcs and a great 5-year story. I always felt his hand at creating smaller, single episode stories wasn't as strong. Finally having seen TLT, I felt it fit my expectations pretty closely. Both stories are too dialogue driven for their own good, but more importantly TLT again shows JMS (comparative) weakness for a small story.

I found it very odd that in both stories the main characters would discuss things that would become EXTREMELY topical 5 minutes later. In the first story , the priest begins a conversation about dwindling faith because there is no proof of the existence of God. Then 5 minutes later, proof presents itself. In the second, Galen tells Sheridan of the horrible things Vintari will do in 30 years times. 5 minutes later, Vintari himself begins casting some dark omens.

Unless the priest is always prattling on about dwindling faith and Vintari is always hinting at his darker side, this is an incredible coincidence. Now, in a bigger picture, if these events were separated by 5 episodes instead of 5 minutes - it would be riveting. In its current form it's just lazy scripting.

Don't get me wrong - I also liked a lot of what TLT has to offer and hope it sparks a whole season worth of new content. The opening sequence was great, the SFX were top notch, JMS's direction, the performances, well I could go on: all great. But for me, the not-so-great really stood out - which is a first for me with B5. I am even really apologetic of LOTR because I feel al lot of great moments outweigh the clunkers.

 

[Jan]

Unless the priest is always prattling on about dwindling faith and Vintari is always hinting at his darker side, this is an incredible coincidence. Now, in a bigger picture, if these events were separated by 5 episodes instead of 5 minutes - it would be riveting. In it's current form its just lazy scripting.

Have you ever experienced a short story that *didn't* get right down to the point? Short stories are mainly plot-driven while longer works can be more character-driven. It's simply a necessity of the form, not any kind of 'lazy scripting'.

Jan

 

[Bester]

I have to agree with Dangerousapple on this one. I think the first story would have worked better without the lengthy first discussion between the priest and Lochley. The whole 'decline of religion/need a new incentive to believe' issue is covered sufficiently in the subsequent scenes with Burke. Sometimes less is more.

 

[b4bob]

Plus that first convo between Lochley and the priest comes out of nowhere, is way too on-the-nose, and comes off as a bit cheesy. Lochley has just met this person, and is basically asking how his trip was, and he's like, "And now I shall begin my lengthy thoughts about the state of religion in our Universe."

Wha..?

 

[Dangerousapple]

Plus that first convo between Lochley and the priest comes out of nowhere, is way too on-the-nose, and comes off as a bit cheesy. Lochley has just met this person, and is basically asking how his trip was, and he's like, "And now I shall begin my lengthy thoughts about the state of religion in our Universe."

Wha..?

I agree. I also agree with Jan that a short story has to get to the point straight away, but like Bester said:

The whole 'decline of religion/need a new incentive to believe' issue is covered sufficiently in the subsequent scenes with Burke. Sometimes less is more.

Furthermore, structurally and commercially, I find it a bit odd JMS begins the show with a lengthy discussion about religion in the very first scene. Essentially, TLT is a pilot for further episodes to come. I can't even remember a pilot for a conflict-driven sci-fi/fantasy show that began with a lengthy exchange of thoughts. A few examples: Firefly opened with the battle for Serenity, Deep Space Nine with the Borg attack, Buffy with a vampire attack. And now B5:TLT starts off with a conversation about faith. Odd, and probably unwise.

 

[RMcD]

Furthermore, structurally and commercially, I find it a bit odd JMS begins the show with a lengthy discussion about religion in the very first scene.

It isn't really an ordinary pilot in the sense that future installments are going to depend on sales figures, not viewing figures. If someone switches off because they get bored with the opening scenes it doesn't matter, because the copy you are watching has already been paid for. And I still think TLT exists primarily as a thankyou to the B5 cast, and secondarily for the enjoyment of B5's existing fans. It's not really striking out to capture a new audience, there will be other opportunities for that down the line.