Crusade sex

Joseph DeMartino · Aug 5, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Why didn't Jerry Doyle want Garibaldi to score with Dodger? What's up with that?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Season 5 spoilers:

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black>Spoiler:</td></tr><tr><td>Doyle raised an objection to Garibaldi sleeping with Dodger in "Day of the Dead", not "GROPOS" In the "GROPOS" script it just doesn't happen, which goes with the pathos of Dodger's death. In the original "Day of the Dead" script Garibaldi does spend the night with Dodger, and he doesn't just quote Emily Dickinson at her.

But Doyle argued that Garibaldi wouldn't cheat on Lise after finally getting her back in his life, even for one night with Dodger. I haven't seen "DotD" for awhile, and my memory on this point isn't terribly clear - did they definitely indicate that the two didn't sleep together or leave it ambiguous?</td></tr></table>

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

[This message has been edited by Joseph DeMartino (edited August 04, 2001).]

Technomage Roanna · Aug 5, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino:
Season 5 spoilers:

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black>Spoiler:</td></tr><tr><td>I haven't seen "DotD" for awhile, and my memory on this point isn't terribly clear - did they definitely indicate that the two didn't sleep together or leave it ambiguous?</td></tr></table>

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black>Spoiler:</td></tr><tr><td>Nothing ambiguous about Dodger's frustration, as I recall. Death made her more philosophical about it, but they clearly stuck with Emily... </td></tr></table>

Ro

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I have no surviving
enemies. At all.

**DONOTDELETE** · Aug 5, 2001

I remember being left with the impression that they had not slept together, since as their segments flow together like Lennier's and Mordens, as a part of a long conversation, rather than talk with Garibaldi's favorite thing in the universe in between. The question is, why didn't he share his second favorite thing in the universe with Dodger instead?

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"So I went to see Ambassador Londo, First he wants the Shadows, then he doesn't want the Shadows, first he's in the war, then he's not in the war..."

bakana · Aug 5, 2001

Garibaldi's "Second Favorite Thing in the Universe" is old Warner Brothers Cartoons.

That's why the Daffy Duck poster over his bed.

He is Seen sharing "Duck Dodgers In the 24th and a Half Century" over a bowl of popcorn with Delenn.

He invites other people (notably Talia) to join him in this same entertainment occasionally.

His First Favorite thing we will leave as an exercise for the student.

BTW, Garibaldi's night with Dodger in "Day of the Dead" is deliberately left vague. He most likely keeps it Platonic because of his renewed relationship with Lise.

But Dodger is definitely still interested. During the time we Don't See, she has "cooled down".
That could be because they took care of their "Unfinished Business" or because she accepted that he was "Taken".

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Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?

GKarsEye · Aug 6, 2001

Funny, my memory tells me that they did get it on. Garibaldi regretting not spending the night with her before she died, so he was making it up to her and himself. My memory has been wrong, though.

Can someone please explain what Garibaldi's favorite things in the universe are? I watched the series completely out of order and this is one of the details I missed.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

Kribu · Aug 6, 2001

As for Garibaldi's favourite things... I'm pretty sure someone knows this, as I think it has been mentioned somewhere, but I can't remember them either.

But I am quite certain that Garibaldi didn't sleep with Dodger in Day of the Dead either. And Dodger wasn't all that happy about it, after all it was what she came back from the dead for.

I seem to remember that they spent most of the night talking and then Garibaldi spent a few hours fixing the communication system so that Lochley could call C&C (or Sheridan or whoever it was).

I suppose that besides being faithful to Lise, the idea of spending a hot night with a dead woman didn't seem all that appetizing to Garibaldi.

(It didn't scare Londo though...)

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"It's animal magnetism. What can I say?"
- G'Kar, A Tragedy of Telepaths

**DONOTDELETE** · Aug 6, 2001

His favorite thing in the universe...
...well, take a guess (just guess with a dirty mind).

His second favorite thing in the universe...
...Looney Tunes - esp. Daffy Duck. Warner Brothers was doing a little product placement, I guess. It sure fits Michael's personality, though.

"Well I just happen to have MY disintegration pistol. And Brother, when it disintegrates; it DISINTEGRATES...

...Whatd'ya know? It disintegrated."

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You are finite. Zathras is finite. This...is wrong tool.

jtk724@hotmail.com

[This message has been edited by Zathras (edited August 05, 2001).]

GKarsEye · Aug 6, 2001

This brings up an interesting issue: would it be considered cheating if he got it on with Dodger? She is dead, so she doesn't really exist anymore, and how can you cheat with someone who doesn't exist? Besides, there's no way way Lise would have found out.

If that's really Garibaldi's favorite thing in the world (as it should be), he should've taken the brass ring, so to speak.

I did remember the cartoons being one of his favorite things, just didn't remember the order.

I vaguely remember a third favorite thing, or am I just being silly?

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

Joseph DeMartino · Aug 6, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Besides, there's no way way Lise would have found out.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, it isn't cheating as long as your spouse doesn't find out?

How about shoplifting? Does that "not count" if I don't get caught?

The point is that Garibaldi would know that he cheated, and his own conscience wouldn't let him. And if he considers sleeping with Dodger to be cheating, then it is in the only sense that matters.

Frankly, I would have done the same, despite the fact that I've always had kind of a thing for Marie Marshall.

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

GKarsEye · Aug 6, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>So, it isn't cheating as long as your spouse doesn't find out? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Damn straight!

Actually, that's why I put the "besides" there. That wasn't the reasoning behind why Garibaldi should've pooched her. It was the whole being dead thing.

Anyway, I'm always gonna find an excuse to get my kicks. To me, "she was really, really hot" is enough of a reason.

I assume Maria Marshall is Lise?

What's with that name, anyway? Is she not good enough for the second syllable?

Yeah, she's pretty hot. Dodger seemed like she'd be a good time, though.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

Technomage Roanna · Aug 6, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by GKarsEye:
Damn straight!

Actually, that's why I put the "besides" there. That wasn't the reasoning behind why Garibaldi should've pooched her. It was the whole being dead thing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You just boasted yourself a dog, don't wimp out now.

BTW, I presume the opposite also is true in your eyes? Your wife/girlfriend having it on with an old flame won't count if you never find out?

Your relationships must be very interesting to watch for the audience at home...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

I assume Maria Marshall is Lise?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I believe that would be Dodger, and it's "Marie" not "Maria"...

Denise Gentile plays Lise, our lady of the many surnames...

Ro

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I have no surviving
enemies. At all.

[This message has been edited by Technomage Roanna (edited August 06, 2001).]

**DONOTDELETE** · Aug 7, 2001

GKarsEye said

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
I vaguely remember a third favourite thing, or am I just being silly?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

JMS described Garibaldi's third favourite thing as what ever the person of the opposite sex is drinking. For Talia in 'Spider in the Web' the drink was tea.

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Andrew Swallow

hypatia · Aug 7, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by GKarsEye:
Funny, my memory tells me that they did get it on. Garibaldi regretting not spending the night with her before she died, so he was making it up to her and himself. My memory has been wrong, though.

Can someone please explain what Garibaldi's favorite things in the universe are? I watched the series completely out of order and this is one of the details I missed.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think "day of the dead" is on tonight. I'll watch for that scene.

G's favorite things?
1) that which he didn't do with Dodger, I think

2) cartoons, maybe specifically Warner Brother or Daffy Duck cartoons

3) someone mentioned but I can't remember

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"I do not believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense,
reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."-- Galileo

Technomage Roanna · Aug 7, 2001

So, G'kars Eye, still thinking about the answer to my question?

Is sauce for the goose also sauce for the gander? (or vice versa?)

I'd really like to know what you think.

Ro

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I have no surviving
enemies. At all.

GKarsEye · Aug 8, 2001

Roanna, I swear to you that I did type a reply, I must have screwed up and not submitted it. For future reference, I will never shy away from a question or challenge. It's too much fun.

The real reason I suggest it really wouldn't be cheating is due to a point of logic:
Dodger is dead.
You can't have sex with a dead person. (leaving any sick stuff out of it)
Therefore, Garibaldi can never have sex with Dodger in Day of the Dead.
It would be more like masturbation or doing something with a blow-up doll, neither of which is cheating (though the latter is too weird, even for me).

I brought this up more as a point of logic than for any ethical issues.

Roanna, I think you were asking about what I think about this stuff personally, so here goes:
Cheating on your spouse is something I object to because a married couple makes a vow to remain faithful to each other for the rest of their lives. This is also why divorce and swinging bother me, though I do not pass judgement of people's personal lives. I just value a person's oath. That, to me, is sacred.

Cheating on a girl/boyfriend is wrong, but not that bad, since there was no oath. I have never done it. But there are worse things a person could do.

I hold no double standards regarding the sexes. I don't say this to be PC (which I am most certainly not), I say this is a statement of fact.

Therefore, yes, whatever is good for the goose is good for the gander. If I could "cheat" on my wife with a back-from-the-dead ex, she could do the same.

You know, I should start a romance advice column.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

Technomage Roanna · Aug 8, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by GKarsEye:
Roanna, I swear to you that I did type a reply, I must have screwed up and not submitted it. For future reference, I will never shy away from a question or challenge. It's too much fun.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's kind of what I expected. When a whole day went by without a response, I was just itchy. I kept checking back, did he answer yet? lol...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Therefore, Garibaldi can never have sex with Dodger in Day of the Dead.
It would be more like masturbation or doing something with a blow-up doll, neither of which is cheating (though the latter is too weird, even for me).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm, I don't agree with your point about Dodger, but I certainly agree that masturbation or toys are not cheating, unless it comes to take the place of intimacy with your partner.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
I hold no double standards regarding the sexes. I don't say this to be PC (which I am most certainly not), I say this is a statement of fact.

Therefore, yes, whatever is good for the goose is good for the gander. If I could "cheat" on my wife with a back-from-the-dead ex, she could do the same.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was the crux of my question, of course.

I'm really surprised by the number of people, male and female, who do think it's different for men and women. Sometimes with the most shopworn rationales.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
You know, I should start a romance advice column.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't look now, but I think you just did...

Ro

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I have no surviving
enemies. At all.

channe · Aug 8, 2001

A response to something REALLY in the top of the thread:

I didn't find a problem with Gideon and Lochley's little fling. At all. I usually do. It's just that... Gideon and Lochley are MUCH different people than Sheridan and Delenn, and that was a defining character moment, one that would have probably come back later in the series to kick them in the ass or something.

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Channe, Freelance Writer Extraordinaire and The Next JMS
--
B5 Synchroninity of the Day: I just found out that the new dorm I'm living in next year has been named Breen Hall.

GKarsEye · Aug 8, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>When a whole day went by without a response, I was just itchy. I kept checking back, did he answer yet? lol...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, I have a fan! Cool.

There is something else I didn't even think about. Garibaldi and Lise weren't even married, so he wouldn't be cheating on his wife. Maybe I just think it's a little unrealistic that a tough guy who lives on the seat of his pants wouldn't take Dodger either time she offered herself to him. The first time he was not involved with anyone, and the second time he had only just begun (or re-begun) his thing with Lise.

He's a putz.

Channe, I didn't have a problem with the fling between Lochley and Gideon, it was just the way it was done that made me wonder whether or not it was a result of TNT butting in. Does anyone remember if the shower scene happened in one of the 5 non-TNT eps (bellhop uniforms) or one of the other?

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

Frizzell · Aug 8, 2001

As to whether or not Gideon's and Lochley's role in the hay was TNT or not, we can only speculate.

However, in the first season of Babylon 5, Londo has a fling with Adira. They of course developed feelings for one another, but it was obvious, at the beginning, that Londo was enchanted by a pretty face.

What about a very loud colored undergarment found in G'Kar's quarters by his aide?

Franklin's and Number One's entire relationship could be viewed as one big one night stand.

So, JMS had done it in the past. Why not on Crusade? To me Gideon was a very fly by the seat of his pants kind of guy, and it was nice to see that Lochley was not as rigid as she often appeared on B5. I think that, if the series had continued, they would have done something with it. She was in the opening credits. It would have been interesting to see how they dealt with it.

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"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift

"What you regard as inconsequential dental forms are in fact more, much more. They are in fact symbols, symbols of America.
Although the world will little note nor long remember what we do today in these hallowed halls. I tell you this with no degree of uncertainty. That forms filed in triplicate are the very foundation of democracy.
Why do we file Robert?
Why?
One word. Freedom...

"I love the smell of toner in the morning."
-Eberts

Technomage Roanna · Aug 8, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by GKarsEye:

There is something else I didn't even think about. Garibaldi and Lise weren't even married, so he wouldn't be cheating on his wife. Maybe I just think it's a little unrealistic that a tough guy who lives on the seat of his pants wouldn't take Dodger either time she offered herself to him. The first time he was not involved with anyone, and the second time he had only just begun (or re-begun) his thing with Lise.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

See, I think it's unrealistic to think someone who can't keep his pants on when you're dating him will do so once you're married...

Ta-may-toe, To-mah-toe.

Best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour...

Both times Dodger came into his life, Garibaldi had to make a choice. While imo there's nothing wrong with two consenting adults having a brief fling, there is also absolutely nothing wrong with deciding that is not what you want.

"No" is also an answer...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
He's a putz.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or maybe his history with Lise made him realize what a delicate balance there was between having and losing, and he didn't want to take the chance of blowing it again.

Imagine, a guy who's able to choose rather that be ruled by blood flow to the lower regions... hmmmmmmmm... What a concept!!!

Knowing what you have, and what you're willing to do to keep it is a very sexy thing to see.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

Channe, I didn't have a problem with the fling between Lochley and Gideon, it was just the way it was done that made me wonder whether or not it was a result of TNT butting in. Does anyone remember if the shower scene happened in one of the 5 non-TNT eps (bellhop uniforms) or one of the other?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's a big difference between titillation and sexiness. JMS never struck me as being prudish. It's a sexy ol' galaxy out there.

So why not presume that two healthy attractive adults are attracted to each other enough to fall into bed for a night? Even if at least one of them regrets it in the morning?

No one makes 100% good decisions all the time, in life or in our stories. Whether this one was a good decision or not is a tale remaining to be told. Actions have consequences. That's what moves plot along...

Ro

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I have no surviving
enemies. At all.

[This message has been edited by Technomage Roanna (edited August 08, 2001).]

Crusade sex

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