Crusade sex

GKarsEye · Aug 8, 2001

Comparing Londa and Adira to Gideon and Lochley isn't fair. Adira was a minor character, whose death, life, love only exist to effect the major characters. Adira exists to provide depth and motivation for Londo. Also, she is one hot bald chick.

Gideon and Lochley are main characters. Again, I don't have a problem or suspicion about the actual fling, it's the whole shower thing and the way it was handled that is so typically Cinemaxish that made me wonder about it, that's all.

Roanna, you speak like a woman. When guys see another guy pass up an opportunity to, as Dodger said, have a night of lust and passion with a cute red-head back from the dead, we say, "Oh, dude, what are you doing?!"

Of course there's nothing "wrong" about his decision. It's just, I dunno, silly.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Knowing what you have, and what you're willing to do to keep it is a very sexy thing to see. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I think Lochley's abs, Adira's rack, and Delenn's walk are sexy things to see, but I'm a guy.

Women's thinking fascinates me. You're telling me that seeing a guy turn down sex is sexy to you? This is something I could never understand. Ah well, the mystery of women. It's a frustrating and beautiful thing.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

Frizzell · Aug 8, 2001

As I believe you said, JMS is not a prude. I simply meant to point out that various characters had hopped into the sack with people.

Yes, I thought it was "cinemaxish" too. I think that is the word you used.

I was just trying to say, ineffectively it would appear, that what happened between Gideon and Lochley could have been JMS, minus TNT.

You do have a point that in all of the above cases only one main character is involved. That is not something that I took into consideration.

Maybe having her and Gideon get together was a way to keep her in the credits?

I am horrified that I just suggested that.

Frizzell

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Although the world will little note nor long remember what we do today in these hallowed halls. I tell you this with no degree of uncertainty. That forms filed in triplicate are the very foundation of democracy.
Why do we file Robert?
Why?
One word. Freedom...

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Technomage Roanna · Aug 8, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Gideon and Lochley are main characters. Again, I don't have a problem or suspicion about the actual fling, it's the whole shower thing and the way it was handled that is so typically Cinemaxish that made me wonder about it, that's all.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, I just made you a director (this won't hurt a bit).

How would you have portrayed it? Remember it's better to show than to tell, and keep in mind that scene the next morning. Would Captain Lochley's discomfort have played so strongly if you hadn't seen how they came together so impulsively and enthusiastically? If you hadn't been privy to a little of the tingle of that electric and seductive charge between man and woman? I don't think so, but I'm a woman and I remember very well feeling just like Lochley does the next morning.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Roanna, you speak like a woman. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Imagine that?

Well, my credentials will hold up, I promise you...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>When guys see another guy pass up an opportunity to, as Dodger said, have a night of lust and passion with a cute red-head back from the dead, we say, "Oh, dude, what are you doing?!"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a knee (or other body part) jerk reaction though. (Miss Stimulus, meet Mr. Response.) When you are the guy or gal in that situation (because a night of lust and passion with a cute redhead is very appealing to us women as well) however, there's another layer. In between stimulus and response there is a space of time where a decision is made. It may be, "Don't care. Feels good, gonna do it." It may also be "Feels good, costs too much. Gonna take a pass."

So, what do guys think when Garibaldi is reunited with Lise, after all their obstacles and difficulties? Is it only women that cheer for them? (and frankly not all women do. Garibaldi's not my favorite character, and I soooo want to tell Lise to get over him and get on with her life. My reaction is, "Girl, the pain is just beginning...")

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Of course there's nothing "wrong" about his decision. It's just, I dunno, silly.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

An alternate view, and I don't think is strictly a female one, is that to risk the love of your life for a roll in the hay, even if it is the most spectacular mind-blowing sex of your LIFE is silliness squared to stupidity. Sometimes the Big Eye has to overrule the Little Eye, yanno?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Well, I think Lochley's abs, Adira's rack, and Delenn's walk are sexy things to see, but I'm a guy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No argument here. Gorgeous body parts one and all. I nominate Sheridan's shoulders, Marcus' fascinating eyes, and yes, Byron's flowing hair. I've always had a thing for long hair.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Women's thinking fascinates me. You're telling me that seeing a guy turn down sex is sexy to you? This is something I could never understand.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm telling you that even more important than how a man looks is what he does. Trust is a potent aphrodisiac.

I'm telling you that seduction's most important elements take place outside of the bedroom. (I've had occasion to discuss this extensively, with both men and women, in another cyber incarnation. I feel pretty confident in my analysis, though it is only anecdotal not statistical.)

I'll let you in on a not so secret secret.

If you want a woman to be full out voracious for you,

1, Let her know you are a man she can trust without question not to seriously hurt her.

2. Don't leave her with all the little niggling household chores. You'll be amazed the dividends a little KP will get you

3. Delight in her body with passion and specificity. Explore it in detail, lovingly and let her see she is beautiful to you in every incarnation. If you don't think so at first, enroll in school. Study the curves and cherish the imperfections. Accept the stretch marks as war wounds and adore the perfect imperfection of your bodies together.

You'll never want to get out of bed...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Ah well, the mystery of women. It's a frustrating and beautiful thing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Most adventures are, and men are just as frustating and mysterious, I promise you, even after a lifetime of study.

And now, you pretty much know why I'm single.

Most men don't understand what I just told you.

Ro

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I have no surviving
enemies. At all.

GKarsEye · Aug 9, 2001

Wow Ro, you're really going all out here.

How I would've handled the Gideon/Lochley thing is irrelevant. I was trying to analyze how it compares to what JMS has done.

I personally would have shown as much skin on Lochley as possible. But I'm not a director, I'm just a horny software engineer, so what I would do doesn't matter.

I know that women are more attracted to what men do than what they look like. Otherwise I would be a very lonely person.

Ro, you're bringing up a lot of complicated and delicate stuff that I couldn't do justice by posting on a message board.

Basically, I was talking about the Dodger thing with tongue-in-cheek humour. I just don't see how it would've ruined what he had with Lise, though.

As far as admiring physical imperfections in your partner, this may be something women do. Men do not. We settle. I'm sorry, but your husband doesn't admire your stretch marks. He accepts them. That's two different things. I like tall women, but I'm dating a short one now. It's OK, because most of the other stuff about her is great, so I accept it.

I pretty much agree with or understand everything else you're saying, though, generally.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

GideonsMine · Aug 9, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by GKarsEye:
Roanna, I swear to you that I did type a reply, I must have screwed up and not submitted it. For future reference, I will never shy away from a question or challenge. It's too much fun.

The real reason I suggest it really wouldn't be cheating is due to a point of logic:
Dodger is dead.
You can't have sex with a dead person. (leaving any sick stuff out of it)
Therefore, Garibaldi can never have sex with Dodger in Day of the Dead.
It would be more like masturbation or doing something with a blow-up doll, neither of which is cheating (though the latter is too weird, even for me).

I brought this up more as a point of logic than for any ethical issues.

Roanna, I think you were asking about what I think about this stuff personally, so here goes:
Cheating on your spouse is something I object to because a married couple makes a vow to remain faithful to each other for the rest of their lives. This is also why divorce and swinging bother me, though I do not pass judgement of people's personal lives. I just value a person's oath. That, to me, is sacred.

Cheating on a girl/boyfriend is wrong, but not that bad, since there was no oath. I have never done it. But there are worse things a person could do.

I hold no double standards regarding the sexes. I don't say this to be PC (which I am most certainly not), I say this is a statement of fact.

Therefore, yes, whatever is good for the goose is good for the gander. If I could "cheat" on my wife with a back-from-the-dead ex, she could do the same.

You know, I should start a romance advice column.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't. Dodger was very real and if Londo had sex with Adira, then Garibaldi could have had sex with Dodger.

Joe is write, Garibaldi would have felt like he cheated and Lise and Garibaldi have gone through an awful lot and gotten back together. No matter what Garibaldi thinks about himself, or did to his body through the alcoholism stage, he is an honorable man, and that's a fact.

Hummmmmmmmmmm ain't this a Crusade board? What does Crusade have to do with the Day of the Dead?

LOLOLOL

I know, it's hard.

------------------
Colleen L. Stanford
Gideon's Mine, all Mine
(he just doesn't know it yet, LOL)

[This message has been edited by GideonsMine (edited August 09, 2001).]

hypatia · Aug 9, 2001

There is something new (at least I THINK its new) that some women are doing to protect themselves against guys who WILL ignore a long-term relationship just for a roll in the hay. They hire (or more likely their private investigator hires) a beautiful woman to approach the guy and see if she can't get him to go to a hotel room with her. If he does (and they do most of the time), the engagement is off. She unlocks the hotel door and his fiance is inside.

Better to know these things ahead of time, isn't it?

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"I do not believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense,
reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."-- Galileo

GKarsEye · Aug 9, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by hypatia:
There is something new (at least I THINK its new) that some women are doing to protect themselves against guys who WILL ignore a long-term relationship just for a roll in the hay. They hire (or more likely their private investigator hires) a beautiful woman to approach the guy and see if she can't get him to go to a hotel room with her. If he does (and they do most of the time), the engagement is off. She unlocks the hotel door and his fiance is inside.

Better to know these things ahead of time, isn't it?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You know, men always get a bad rap for being scumbags, and rightfully so, but this is something that only a woman could think of.

If my girlfriend did that to me, I would not sleep with the hired girl, then dump my girlfriend's ass, and I would not be gentle about it. What would be revealed is not my fidelity, but her mistrust and coniving, sneaky way to handle a situation.

Folks, if you're really that worried about someone cheating on you that much, either he/she really is, or you're paranoid. If the case of the former, end it, that person's not good enough for you. In the case of the latter, end it, you're not good enough for that person.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

Technomage Roanna · Aug 9, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Wow Ro, you're really going all out here.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I gather from the rest of your comments that you think I'm talking to you personally. Please understand that, though you and I are the active participants in this conversation, my time on various boards and email lists I've become very aware that there are additional participants in EVERY BB conversation. My comments are intended to provoke thought in them as well as you. You're not the only one who finds that a worthwhile pursuit.

I'm very appreciative of you giving me the opportunity to do so by being willing to talk about things a lot of people don't. In my experience, they are better off if they do.

And my comment about "why I'm single" was definitely a joke, as I intended to indicate by using the winking smilie...

I'm happier single than I have ever been in a relationship, and I'm not sure I ever will marry. That's a choice I've made though one I reserve the right to revisit when the time comes.

I will address the issues you mention without quoting the specifics. I think I can keep the post organized enough without that.

Several people referred to the Gideon/Lochley scene as "soft core porn", and "Cinemaxish. My point is there's a difference between showing your characters as sexual beings and porn, which is basically a skeletal plot and banal dialog for the purpose of viewing sex acts.

This scene, and the way it was directed (in a script written by Peter David, IIRC, not JMS) had a specific use in furthering both plot and character in the show. That's a very different matter from the "TNT turned Crusade into porn" stance.

I know that you were being humorous, but underneath that humor lies a very basic truth... relationships between men and women are rife with opportunities to hurt each other. Garibaldi had that chance with both Dodger and Lise. He made a choice that, to the actor (who if you've ever met him is definitely a "guy" guy) and to many others, made a lot of sense given what he had been through and what he hoped for. What we do to each other in acts of both omission and commission hurt each other or help each other heal. Those choices always matter.

Increasingly in our entertainment as well as the culture at large we objectify each other in ways that are IMPOSSIBLE to replicate in our relationships. Yet that's what we see, adults and adolescents alike, so we expect that's what we "should" have, and when we can't attain that impossibility in the relationship we've settled on, we keep looking for the next one through the door. Might it be attained through him/her?

And if no one says otherwise, those expectations stand unchallenged. Well, I challenge them, and I hope that we will develop into a culture where instead of focusing on what we are missing out on, we see clearly what we have right in front of us. Unless we challenge what is going on behind the smoke and mirrors, it never will.

I hope that instead of believing someone else's impossible standards we listen to our own hearts and let ourselves be attracted accordingly. One thing the internet has shown, in addition to how many downloads of air brushed porn stars can be achieved in an hour, is that there are many men (in my experience that's all I can speak of) who actually prefer a woman who looks remarkable different from what we see on our tv screens.

It's important to acknowledge that variation as well for both their sakes, and all those men and women who think they have to settle for someone who will spend their love lives dreaming of someone else.

All the girls who think that they have to look like 7 of 9 to get and keep a boy's attention and all the boys who think that the only thing that counts is size.

All the young men and women being bombarded by their own hormones and the sexual imagery in our culture who are now going through high school and into their adult lives having experienced sexual harassment or been conned into thinking that it's okay to reach into someone's pants just because you want to and "everybody else is doing it."

And I know for an absolute fact there are men who feel the same way I do. So while I want in no way to negate your own opinions and experience, I want to say that they are not universal. We choose in every moment, and our choices shape others as much as we are shaped by them.

Ro

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I have no surviving
enemies. At all.

GKarsEye · Aug 9, 2001

Hi, Ro

I know you weren't just talking to me personally, I'm not that arrogant.

Just like you said that people have different ways of thinking about beauty, I point out that different people have different views on relationships and what constitutes cheating. Many women don't "let" their men go to strip clubs just because they will be looking at other women. On the other extreme, some people are swingers.

Garibaldi decided that sleeping with someone who you could argue wasn't really there would be cheating. That's his decision. I'm not saying what he should or should not have done. I just think most men would have acted differently in that situation.

Lochley/Gideon:
Sex and relationships on B5 were very realistic and sophisticated. I, who hate that kind of mushy crap, actually cared about John and Delenn's relationship. This is a first for me. I was embarrassed at you despondent I became when Anna Sheridan appeared and John yelled at Delenn... powerful stuff.

On Crusade, the attractive couple is running away from some bad guys, they make it back to her room safely but are all sweaty and dirty. Then the otherwise stoic, serious and reserved Capt. Lochley can't help but throw herself at the ruggedly handsome dashing captain hero. Blah, blah, blah. It's just so different than what came before. Again, I don't really care, but if B5 were full of these kinds of cliches, I wouldn't like the show. If I'd wanted to see that, I'd watch La Femme Nikita or Baywatch.

If someone could find out which episode the shower scene took place in, that may provide a clue.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

Technomage Roanna · Aug 9, 2001

Shower scene was in Rules of the Game I believe.

Ro

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I have no surviving
enemies. At all.

GKarsEye · Aug 9, 2001

Rules of the Game was one of the episodes produced after TNT started meddling (black uniforms), I think. It's was the 7th episode aired, and I believe the 9th was the first ep aired which wasn't effected by the execs (bellhop uniforms).

This helps support the idea that the shower scene was a result of TNT's meddling.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

Joseph DeMartino · Aug 10, 2001

"Rules of the Game" was production # 112, so it came after the first production halt, and it was written by JMS.

But I don't think that TNT had much influence on the scene. It isn't like there were people from Atlanta standing behind the director telling him how to shoot things. Their interference was more at the script stage, and JMS actually managed to avoid most of the really stupid things they suggested, though he did give in on lots of smaller items, to the detriment of the show. I don't know if the way the scene was handled is a matter of JMS trying to give them what they wanted without violating the spirit of the show or not. But the visual pun with the ship entering the docking bay is just his sense of humor, which suggests that the shower scene was as well.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>On Crusade, the attractive couple is running away from some bad guys, they make it back to her room safely but are all sweaty and dirty. Then the otherwise stoic, serious and reserved Capt. Lochley can't help but throw herself at the ruggedly handsome dashing captain hero.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually there is pretty good anecodtal evidence that barely escaping death makes some people horny as hell. Whether it is a matter of all that adreniline still in the system, some kind of biological urge to make sure the genes get passed on, or just a heightened awareness of life's pleasures after almost losing them all, survivors of battles, accidents and natural disasters often report having some of the best sex of their lives just after such near-misses. Sometimes the sex is with other survivors whom they've never met before. So Lochley's actions aren't as psychologically suspect as you're painting them, especially given that the show has already established that there is an attraction between the two.

Regards,

Joe

------------------
Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

GKarsEye · Aug 10, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Actually there is pretty good anecodtal evidence that barely escaping death makes some people horny as hell. Whether it is a matter of all that adreniline still in the system, some kind of biological urge to make sure the genes get passed on, or just a heightened awareness of life's pleasures after almost losing them all, survivors of battles, accidents and natural disasters often report having some of the best sex of their lives just after such near-misses. Sometimes the sex is with other survivors whom they've never met before. So Lochley's actions aren't as psychologically suspect as you're painting them, especially given that the show has already established that there is an attraction between the two. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When I took psychology, I learned of an experiment where they would have men walk across a rickety, seemingly dangerous bridge. At the end of the bridge, a woman waited there to supposedly take down their information and send them off on their way. Compared to another group of men who walked across a stable bridge, the first group had a lot more men who asked the woman out.

No, it's not psychologically suspect. To me, it was artistically suspect.

I never really strongly believed in my little theory, I just brought it up as a point of discussion.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

drakh · Aug 11, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Technomage Roanna:
This scene, and the way it was directed (in a script written by Peter David, IIRC, not JMS)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Nope. Peter David wrote Puling From the Tomb, the one with the confrence on Mars, where Gideon and Lochley just had dinner.

The showe scene was in Rules of the Game written by jms.

It's also worth noting that the Gideon/Lochley relationship was being established already in Each Night I Dream of Home - before TNT started messing around with the show.

bakana · Aug 12, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> No, it's not psychologically suspect. To me, it was artistically suspect. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you know that such things happen in real life, why is it artistically suspect?? Art imitates life. That's why it is Believeable.

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Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?

GKarsEye · Aug 12, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by bakana:
If you know that such things happen in real life, why is it artistically suspect?? Art imitates life. That's why it is Believeable.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<sigh>
It's artistically suspect because it differs so much from the way JMS operates. Compared to his other B5 related romances, this one seemed a bit taudry. JMS has never done that with two major characters. He always made it more sophisticated.

Also, it seemed outside of Lochley's character.

It's not a criticism, I was just suggesting it might have been a result of his bosses pushing him around.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

Joseph DeMartino · Aug 12, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>JMS has never done that with two major characters. He always made it more sophisticated.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did you watch the same Mars episodes I did? "Oh, Stephen!" and Marcus opening and closing his denn'bok wasn't exactly Noel Coward, either.

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

bakana · Aug 12, 2001

Having a character use a six foot long prehensile Penis to cheat at Poker is Sophisticated??

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Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?

hypatia · Aug 12, 2001

And what about the fact that JMS was going to have Garibaldi sleep with Dodger, and it was the ACTOR who talked him out of it.

But there are some who think no man in his right mind would pass up that opportunity. I'd say Jerry Doyle is very much in his right mind, and wanted to make a personal statement. JMS has "sexier" plans, but agreed to rewrite.

JMS, like most authors, do like to spice things up. As much as I dislike TNT, I can't blame them for that aspect of B5. As several of you have pointed out, JMS seemed to go there quite enough on his own!

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"I do not believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense,
reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."-- Galileo

drakh · Aug 13, 2001

Just to be a pedant (again

) - the episode in question (GROPOS) was written by Larry DiTillio, not jms.

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