Dollhouse

[Jade Jaguar]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

Well, I finally saw the first ep, so I've seen them all now. Perhaps because I saw them out of order, it is pretty clear to me that Caroline, aka Echo, is a plant, put there to spy on the Dollhouse. I don't think she has full conscious retention of her various assumed personalities, but I think she is retaining them on a deeper level, so that she can be debriefed by those who planted her there. I am assuming that they built this trait into her.

 

[KoshFan]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

Very interesting theory, JJ, although I'd like to hear more of your reasoning.

I found the pilot episode quite gripping and the other two... slightly less so... but this one had me quite happy indeed. I think "Taffy's" team was what did it -- I liked the guy who knew art, and was walking Echo through it, despite having been stabbed.

I'm looking forward to seeing Alpha -- especially as I accidentally stumbled on a spoiler and I know who's playing him.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

Before the tech guy mentioned it, I told my friend Bill, a Wheadon fan watching with me, that Alpha was still alive, and had done the remote wipe.

I don't have any real evidence about Caroline being a plant. It was partly her attitude, and the circumstances of her induction. Also, we found out from the FBI guy that there are some powerful higher-ups behind his investigation, so it stands to reason that others would be investigating as well, if not for those "higher-ups," then for others...

I think it possible that Sierra is a plant too. Or, Echo may be (programmed) to recruit her, and alter her, to help Echo and her investigation.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

BTW, the Elgin Marbles, the McGuffin in the EP would be too big and heavy for one guy to carry. I looked it up. They average about 3' x 5'. I liked the art guy too.

 

[KoshFan]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

There was a lot of back-and-forth over at Whedonesque over whether or not the piece was too small. Eventual consensus is that it might well have worked (although the panel they had the drawing of is actually in the British Museum). You're completely right about the weight, though. Somehow all us nerds missed the sheer mass issue.

 

[Sindatur]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

So, does anyone else think naked TV watching dude is Alpha?

I thought it was obvious, but, I'm wondering if it's too obvious, therefore it's a bad assumption?

 

[Cell]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

So, does anyone else think naked TV watching dude is Alpha?

I thought it was obvious, but, I'm wondering if it's too obvious, therefore it's a bad assumption?

No, I think it's definitely him and it was meant to be obvious.

 

[vacantlook]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

Excellent episode tonight. I knew that Helo's neighbor had to be connected to the Dollhouse, so it was cool to see I was right; and damn! she seriously kicked ass when the time came. New revelations: there are multiple Dollhouses throughout the world, and expectedly, there's someone working on the inside that's working against the Dollhouse. It'll be fun to find out who added the bit to Echo's programming to get her to nudge Helo in a different direction.

I so hope this show doesn't get canceled; it's getting good.

 

[Recoil]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

It was the best episode so far. The obvious choice for the inside person is Topher's assistant, but we will see. I was also expecting the neighbor to be a plant, but not an imprinted plant, so that was a nice touch.

This episode had 3-4 different threads going on in it which was interesting. And while this was a solid episode, for me there still seems to be something "missing" in this show to me. Like it doesn't have a natural feel, or heart, so to speak. Honestly if it wasn't a Joss Whedon show I'd have tuned out by now, and even now its hard for me to identify it as one of his shows because by now in ANY of his other works, I was far more sold, and into it, than I am.

But, I guess Ill keep tuning in and see if it starts to get some sort of feeling with me.

 

[vacantlook]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

...The obvious choice for the inside person is Topher's assistant, but we will see....

The asian chick he makes get him food? Yeah, that's who I'm expecting it to end up being, based on what we've been given so far that is.

I think why this show seems so different than Buffy/Angel and Firefly is that there's no quirky humor. I like the premise enough that I'm interested, so I'm definitely going to keep watching. The secret conspiratorial stuff gets me going too.

 

[Recoil]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

I think I was able to sum up my feelings on what this show is missing and describe it so it makes sense. First off, I wasn't really expecting it to be like Buffy/Angel/Firefly with quirky dialogue and humor. I enjoy lots of other shows that don't have that just fine. It just feels like it is missing something...

As best as I can describe it, this show itself feels to me like the "dolls" are when they are in their "Blank Slate" mode at the Dollhouse. Plain, sterile, but nothing under the surface. No Soul. Like the show still hasn't found itself.

While it may be interesting for the characters themselves to be this way, for the entire show to have that feeling to me doesnt seem right. I'm sure its not intentional or what they were going after, but Im just using that to describe my feeling about it in the terms of the show itself.

 

[vacantlook]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

I think a lot of the episodes so far have been a bit more stand-alone than they could've been, and this whole word floating around on the net that Joss says the show gets significantly better starting around episode 6 makes me think the stand-alonishness of these early episodes are out of network influence.

 

[KoshFan]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

I'm very intrigued by all that's going on, too.

As always with Whedon shows, it's the relationships that are really coming through. Paul and Mellie (Helo and Neighbor Girl) make a pretty good couple -- although things moved much faster there than I thought they would! Sierra and Victor are very cute. Saunders and Boyd are starting to seem like protective parental partners, especially in the last shot of them standing close together watching Sierra and Victor. And, in a twist I'd like to see played out, the top security guy seems kind of sweet on Boss Lady, to me.

 

[vacantlook]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

...although things moved much faster there than I thought they would!

I think he took the leap from just friendly neighbors to sex friends because of his conversation with that guy that had hired Echo so he could pretend she was his wife. Had he been left to move at his own pace, the relationship would've progressed a bit slower, probably, but that guy was all like, "who do you have if you're not obsessing over Echo" (paraphrased), and that triggered him to move faster.

Sierra and Victor are very cute.

Victor is cute.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

I think he took the leap from just friendly neighbors to sex friends because of his conversation with that guy that had hired Echo so he could pretend she was his wife. Had he been left to move at his own pace, the relationship would've progressed a bit slower, probably, but that guy was all like, "who do you have if you're not obsessing over Echo" (paraphrased), and that triggered him to move faster.

True. That was pretty obvious.

So, what is the REAL goal of all the "Doll Houses?" About the only thing I can imagine is total world domination, probably programming political leaders?

 

[KoshFan]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

Jade, I expect from where they stand, they do dominate the world. They've got ties with bigwigs and fat cats the world over, they're rolling in dough, they have assassins and sleeper agents on command... and nobody argues with them because nobody knows they exist, except the "right people." They're extremely powerful and extremely behind the throne.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

Jade, I expect from where they stand, they do dominate the world. They've got ties with bigwigs and fat cats the world over, they're rolling in dough, they have assassins and sleeper agents on command... and nobody argues with them because nobody knows they exist, except the "right people." They're extremely powerful and extremely behind the throne.

Well, I would call that a lot of strong influence, but not directly calling all the shots themselves. Could be they want more overt control. And, obviously someone, or more likely some ones know they exist, and are trying to thwart, or at least learn, their plans.

 

[Cell]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

Saunders and Boyd are starting to seem like protective parental partners

I'd really like my protective parental figures to allow me to go out and be used as a hooker with no memory of it all the time, to be raped, beaten up and abused. That's what I want from my parental figures. Seriously though, that is one of my main problems with the show. Outside of Ballard there isn't a sympathetic character on the show. The doc and Boyd are just as despicable as the people running the dollhouse, they enable the situation, that's not sympathetic, that's even worse than the people in power because they could walk away but instead they continue to receive their paycheck and talk about wanting to do good while the doc makes sure the girls are healthy enough to go be hookers and Boyd makes sure to be there for back-up in case someone decides to get too rough with hooker Echo. Essentially Boyd is Echo's pimp and the doc is his helpful doctor friend, both pretty horrendous. Unless of course Boyd ends up being a plant and the doc is a doll herself, in that case there is actual sympathy to be had.

All that said, I did like this last week's episode, outside if the ridiculousness of Ballard using a nerve punch in a fight in 2009. You can't make sure to show a guy practicing muay Thai in one episode and have him be an FBI agent and then use a nerve punch, that's just ludicrous. Noitb a single person who practices muay Thai and has taken the hand to hand combat courses of the FBI would use something as patently useless as a nerve punch. Still, it's a minor point of what I thought was a really good episode.

 

[KoshFan]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

Seriously though, that is one of my main problems with the show. Outside of Ballard there isn't a sympathetic character on the show. The doc and Boyd are just as despicable as the people running the dollhouse, they enable the situation

I think that's the point, actually. We haven't seen any real good guys except Echo herself -- and who knows why Caroline was in so much trouble? Ballard's the theoretical moral force but his motives are very suspect, considering his fixation on Echo. Mellie's a good person -- except she's also a Doll, and therefore she's not necessarily good, she's just built that way.

But we're also not seeing a lot of totally evil people, either -- Adelle obviously cares for the Dolls even as she uses them, and Dominic the Security Jerk might very well be such an ass towards Echo out of concern for Adelle. Hearn (the handler who was raping Sierra) was probably the worst person we've seen on the show so far. Even the clients are mostly understandable. First client wanted his daughter back, third client wanted his charge protected, fourth was trying to recover stolen property to give it as a gift to the rightful owners... yeah, they're all taking part in an ugly business, no excuses. But they aren't pure evil. Even "Most Dangerous Game" guy may well have been doing it all to help Echo recover herself.

No white, not much black, mostly gray.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

No white, not much black, mostly gray.

Charcoal gray... at best.