Dollhouse

[Recoil]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

It's been hit or miss so far, but not terrible or anything, well outside of the idiotic Rayna plot. But, the science fiction behind the premise of the show continues to bug me. A lot of skills are tactile, you can't just imprint someone with them. if you imprint someone with the ability to be a great singer they also need their vocal chords changed, someone isn't going to be able to do martial arts just because you imprint their brain with the ability to do it, massive changes would have to be made to their muscle structure/memory, etc.. The show appears to want to sidestep the inherent tactile nature of skills and instead opt for an, it's all in the brain approach and I find that rather shoddy writing/planning.

Regarding this. Remember folks, the concept of this show came from a very short lunch between Dushku and Whedon as she had an exclusive with Fox but no vehicle. He went to the bathroom, came back to the table, and started scribbling the idea of the show on a napkin.

Not sure a lot of "science" is behind this one. This will probably be more though provoking than anything when it gets into things. But I doubt the intention is to dwell on the science of what is going on.

 

[KoshFan]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

Yeah, this is from the guy who quite openly and pointedly didn't care at all how the spaceship in Firefly got around. Simply didn't care at all. Joss is not a "hard" SF writer...

 

[Cell]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

Yeah, this is from the guy who quite openly and pointedly didn't care at all how the spaceship in Firefly got around. Simply didn't care at all. Joss is not a "hard" SF writer...

Hard really doesn't have much to do with it, because I don't need hard science fiction. But, it's a pretty basic concept, not something inherently scientific such as space travel. Tactile experience and memory is required for skills, the idiot linebacker with an IQ of 22 knows this. It is something that should be addressed, because unlike Firelfy with space travel, it's something that everyone can understand. It's not like it's something that will stop me from enjoying the show, but it would be a minor hindrance if this is never addressed in some way.

 

[vacantlook]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

Well, it won't be any form of a hindrance for me if it's never addressed. If they can program people to be nearsighted and have asthma, then they can program them to sing and fight. If the story is good, then I can easily overlook it being, you know, not really real.

 

[KoshFan]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

They did refer to touching being important for imprinting an Active on his or her handler.

 

[Sindatur]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

I think it was assumed that Echo was retaining things, but this shows Sierra is too, so probably they ALL are. Unless Echo has been able to do something to Sierra to make her different.

This will probably tie into Alpha also, and possibly "the attic" (I assume the attic is where they lock away their actives that no longer work proeprly)

 

[Chilli]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

I thought it was quite clear that tactile experience, body control, and anything of the sort is included in what they can program the dolls with. That's why they put the short-sightedness and the asthma in in the first episode.

They shouldn't be able to make her a great singer just like that, of course. But hey, it could be that she just could have, by chance, had the vocal cords for it - like Eliza Dushku, just happened to have the vocal cords for it. Physical form is another question, but they could just keep their dolls in good shape.

It's still a somewhat silly concept, yeah. But then, all of Joss' shows have stupid concepts. I've enjoyed them all till now, and I'm not minding Dollhouse at all either.

The individual plots have been clicheed as hell, but have all been executed quite well - the show has, at worst, been uninspired, but it certainly hasn't been BAD. While the general concept of the show seems daft, I do think Whedon could take the show somewhere. The acting has been quite decent, with Eliza Dushku showing a way wider range as an actress than I thought she had, and Tahmoh Penikett, boring as he might be on BSG, actually managing to make his character seem sufficiently dickish. Definitely hope the show will make it to the "takeoff" Joss promised before being axed.

 

[Cell]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

Physical form is another question, but they could just keep their dolls in good shape.

This is something else that has been bugging me and I do think is a major flaw in the show. When in base, or Echo, form, none of the dolls have a personality, therefore they have no will of their own. They have no desire, feelings, hang-ups, etc.. For that reason it would be impossible to get them to do anything, they wouldn't run and keep in shape because they have no motivation to do it, nor do they have any motivation to refuse. Their complete lack of personality and any sort of personal compass means they would just vegetate all the time.

 

[KoshFan]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

Except it's clear they do have a personality between activations... it's just a very basic one. Childlike. Echo worries about Sierra hurting during the wiping process, and seems concerned when Alpha's victims won't wake up. She also enjoys massages and occasionally has expressed a desire to swim in the pool. So her desires are those of a three-year-old, really. An easily suggestible three-year-old.

Trust me, it's not hard to get a young child to exercise. If they find it fun, they'll do it all the time.

 

[Cell]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

Except it's clear they do have a personality between activations... it's just a very basic one. Childlike. Echo worries about Sierra hurting during the wiping process, and seems concerned when Alpha's victims won't wake up. She also enjoys massages and occasionally has expressed a desire to swim in the pool. So her desires are those of a three-year-old, really. An easily suggestible three-year-old.

Trust me, it's not hard to get a young child to exercise. If they find it fun, they'll do it all the time.

I don't think that's been made clear at all. Especially when tech moron goes on his explanations about the tech and what it does, and not to rag on the show ton but that's another problem so far, the tech seems both incredibly flawed and an absolute failure in how it operates. Back to the topic though, in order for them to work out, care about others, they would need an active personality, one that can grow and learn, not one that is stagnant and lifeless. Without personality growth there is no need for them to work out, be active, learn, because they literally have no personality to grow. This is ideally a great area for discussion within the show, but I don't know if the show will ever go there, instead it seems as if it will give us the shoddy "blank" personalities with no explanation ever given about how they operate or any in-show discussion on the purpose and intent of these personalities.

More to the point, they have no idea what fun is, because knowing that something is fun would mean an inherent ability to learn and discover the idea of fun, and then to seek out new ways of having fun. The dolls lack the personality when in basic state to know what fun is or to want to seek out other fun activities, because that means a learning cycle and that means yet another flaw in the tech system. As I said above if they explored why this is a flaw and went into the philosophical and technical conundrums this represents then that would be great, but I don't see them ever doing that.

 

[Chilli]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

This is something else that has been bugging me and I do think is a major flaw in the show. When in base, or Echo, form, none of the dolls have a personality, therefore they have no will of their own. They have no desire, feelings, hang-ups, etc.. For that reason it would be impossible to get them to do anything, they wouldn't run and keep in shape because they have no motivation to do it, nor do they have any motivation to refuse. Their complete lack of personality and any sort of personal compass means they would just vegetate all the time.

Implant them with fitness-freak personalities 3-4 hours a day. Job done.

 

[Sindatur]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

I don't think that's been made clear at all. Especially when tech moron goes on his explanations about the tech and what it does, and not to rag on the show ton but that's another problem so far, the tech seems both incredibly flawed and an absolute failure in how it operates. Back to the topic though, in order for them to work out, care about others, they would need an active personality, one that can grow and learn, not one that is stagnant and lifeless. Without personality growth there is no need for them to work out, be active, learn, because they literally have no personality to grow. This is ideally a great area for discussion within the show, but I don't know if the show will ever go there, instead it seems as if it will give us the shoddy "blank" personalities with no explanation ever given about how they operate or any in-show discussion on the purpose and intent of these personalities.

More to the point, they have no idea what fun is, because knowing that something is fun would mean an inherent ability to learn and discover the idea of fun, and then to seek out new ways of having fun. The dolls lack the personality when in basic state to know what fun is or to want to seek out other fun activities, because that means a learning cycle and that means yet another flaw in the tech system. As I said above if they explored why this is a flaw and went into the philosophical and technical conundrums this represents then that would be great, but I don't see them ever doing that.

Except it's being very strongly hinted at that the "blank personality" isn't so blank as we are being led to believe. Echo is far more cognizant than the "blank personality" portrays.

 

[KoshFan]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

Well, Echo's also given to be unusual... I think the key element here is that the Actives do have a personality in between missions. After all, they all recognize Topher right away when they wake up from a wipe, and they don't have trouble finiding their way around the Dollhouse, so it's not an actual memory erasure -- more like a memory replacement. Basically they have a "interim" personality that's used to the Dollhouse and its people, and then Topher swaps that out for whatever he's whipped up this week.

And Chilli's right -- no need for them to "learn" what's fun if Topher simply programs them to enjoy something.

 

[Cell]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

Except it's being very strongly hinted at that the "blank personality" isn't so blank as we are being led to believe. Echo is far more cognizant than the "blank personality" portrays.

Echo is the exception to the rule I do believe, otherwise there's really no point in the show. Having all the dolls be cognizant like Echo would make for a very dull show indeed.

 

[Sindatur]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

Echo is the exception to the rule I do believe, otherwise there's really no point in the show. Having all the dolls be cognizant like Echo would make for a very dull show indeed.

If you saw the final scene of this last episode, Echo and Sierra exchanged a very knowing glance that suggested it's not just Echo. In the Pilot Echo said, "Have you ever tried to wipe a slate clean, there's always something left behind" (paraphrased). Plus, they have "the attic" to store the Actives that don't "work right" anymore, and then there's Alpha going on a murdering rampage. This all adds up to me, to suggest the remnants of personality left over after a wipe, are very much a part of the current overall Arc.

Spoilers below for those who avoid previews:









However, what's confusing is in the next episode, Echo gets wiped remotely, so I'm not sure how that works into my understanding/belief of where the show is going.

 

[Cell]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

I didn't take that scene like you did. I took it as Sierra acknowledging Echo because of the earlier working out bonding moment while Echo shrugged her off because she is becoming aware of the bigger picture.

 

[KoshFan]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

Yeah, I wouldn't read too much into Echo's headshake just yet. Sign of things to come? Sure. Not much there yet, though. I think she was mostly shaking Sierra off because she remembered Sierra's handler -- standing right there -- wasn't a nice man.

 

[Sindatur]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

Yeah, I wouldn't read too much into Echo's headshake just yet. Sign of things to come? Sure. Not much there yet, though. I think she was mostly shaking Sierra off because she remembered Sierra's handler -- standing right there -- wasn't a nice man.

I may indeed be reading too much into it (LOL, wouldn't be the first time I've doen that with a show), but, in order for Echo to have "warned" Sierra, there had to be something she was concerned about, and she had to expect Sierra to understand her warning, so, I'm at a loss as to what it might have been all about, if not a warning not to reveal they know things?

 

[KoshFan]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

Sierra's handler had pointedly remarked he didn't want her hanging out with Echo, for fear Echo would "rub off on her." And Sierra's handler was right there. So Echo knows they aren't supposed to be around each other -- at least not while the handler is watching.

 

[vacantlook]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

I liked tonight's episode, but then I guess that shouldn't be too much of a surprise given that I've liked what I've seen so far on this show. I missed the second episode, so I didn't get anything about Alpha until tonight. I'm intrigued to say the least; gotta have a good antagonist in a story, and Alpha seems to be setting up to be one to some degree.

I think there were a lot of little moments in this episode that can easily be overlooked but when examined in and of themselves present some ponderant moments, like Echo and the dude discussing the painting and why it looked the way it did. There were a lot of tonal bits about being broken and what constitutes being whole. It serves for a nice metaphor for people who deal with major psychological problems and how we view the concept of self.

I hope the show doesn't get canceled because I want to see more.