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Encounter Suits

Just a thought...
Perhaps the variation in Vorlon encounter suits is s reflection of personality and personal taste. Though both Kosh and Ulkesh ( I thought all Vorlons were called Kosh) cultivated a serene, dispassionate pose, they definitely had ordinaly emotions. Kosh appeared to be more compasionate, and his suit reflected this: warm brownish colour tones and a more rounded shape. Ulkesh's colder, harsher ways were reflected in his suit, too, with more angular lines and a shade of purple which was 'cold'.
As for humans and Minbari, Iguess thier suits too would reflect the personalities of their owners...

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" Beauty in the midst of darkness."
 
Fair point, Kribu. For some reason that one slipped by me completely!
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On balance I would agree that the Humans and Minbari are unlikely to forget. I was just thinking on the lines that it's easy to talk about doing things and harder to do them.

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Crusader:
I was just thinking on the lines that it's easy to talk about doing things and harder to do them.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh yes, I agree completely.

And it's easy to miss some things in B5, Crusader - I know I missed a lot of the little clues etc when I watched the series for the first time, and I'm sure I miss a lot even now. Amazingly, this is something I actually noticed!
laugh.gif


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"You've misspelled this. There's no 'Y' in liberties."
"Oh, go away. Repress someone else."
 
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LOL, Vorlons smacking each other, that'd be funny, especially if they were still in their encounter suits while doing it
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Maybe their little robot arm slaps people.

The idea about Vorlon differance brings this up; Ulkesh and Kosh had Naranek as a last name, or whatever. Maybe Naranek means telepathically capable? Or just a higher form of telepathy. Remember not all Vorlons are Psi capable, as the living record in Lyta said in Thirdspace ( in an amazed tone), "...They are telepathic, all of them..."


Hrmmm * Rubs his chin *

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Don't think about it,
Signed,
Board Idiot
 
Odd, maybe the vorlons have a certain caste system where they have the telepathic ones and the non-telepaths

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2 + 2 is not 4!! This is the kinda stuff that's gonna get you started on crazy ideas like freedom and democracy. Just say no! -- Stalin Wannabe :D
 
Odd, it seems I'm actually making a good point....ARGHH!! * Screams in confusion*

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Don't think about it,
I can imagine a moonlit beach, with waves, and kosh playing in the water in a bathing suit. :)
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>But seriously, I'm assuming that they didn't need an encounter suit on their home world, or in their ships. Thus I don't think that the look of the suit is too important.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Given that they only wear encounter suits when dealing with other races, I think they are very much concerned with what they look like, and what image they project. The Vorlons know perfectly well that their native, neon-squid, form will not go down well with most of the bipedal, mammalian or reptilian younger races. That's why when confronting a few individuals from a single race they project an image that is either drawn from that race's existing iconagraphy of heavenly beings or an idealized (and winged) form of the race itself, which can easily be incorporated into that iconography.

(It isn't clear which they are doing. I lean towards the latter version because I think that - at least in the B5 universe - angels ended up being depicted with wings because the Vorlons had to do something with the membranes they seem to use for locomotion. It seems that they do not have the ability to simply make parts of themselves invisible, or to create illusions out of whole cloth.)

The encounter suits keep them from having to project such images to large numbers of individuals, and especially from having to project multiple images to members of different species at the same time. Kosh says that this is a great strain, and proves it by retiring to his ship for a week to recover after "The Fall of Night."

I suspect that the suits also serve the normal function of a spacesuit and that that are, in fact, native methane breathers, though with some ability to survive for an unknown period in an oxygen atmosphere. Therefore they necessarily conform, at least to a degree, with actual Vorlon anatomy, hence the "wing cases" on the shoulder. The Human Ranger's encounter suit in "Deconstruction" similarly seems to conform to Human anatomy, while still suggesting the Vorlon influence.

(BTW, I think that encounter suit has been analyzed beyond all reason. The simple fact is that there was no other visually arresting and dramatic way to tell the audience that Humans had acheived First One status than to show that Ranger change into a ball of light and enter an encounter suit. It was almost like the punchline of a joke, or the final punctuation of a story.

As a practical matter, within the story itself, that Ranger probably didn't need to don an encounter suit to enter a ship with an oxygen atmosphere and head off to New Earth. The suit is only there because dramatically it needs to be, just like we often hear sound in outerspace shots because the human animal is wired to expect sound.

In our experience gun fire explosions and large, heavy objects passing by make noise and omitting the sound leaves a scene feeling emotionally dead, even if your brain tells you it is more accurate.)

Finally their encounter suits help the Vorlons retain the mystery that they cultivate, and project an image of their own - powerful, inscrutable, and very hard to attack.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Someone else mentioned earlier that the Vorlons were telepathically linked to each other. I'd think having a "revolutionary" linked to everyone's mind might be a bit upsetting to a group as dedicated to organization as the Vorlons.

***

Ulkesh and Kosh had Naranek as a last name, or whatever. Maybe Naranek means telepathically capable? Or just a higher form of telepathy. Remember not all Vorlons are Psi capable, as the living record in Lyta said in Thirdspace ( in an amazed tone), "...They are telepathic, all of them..."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I'm less and less convince that the Vorlons are telepaths in any conventional sense, much less that they are linked into any kind of "hive mind." If they were Kosh Vader wouldn't have been worried about the last of Kosh being lost, they would have known what Kosh did with Sheridan and why, and the Humans would not have been able to keep their plot against Kosh II a secret.

Whatever ability the Vorlons have to touch other minds - beyond projecting false images of themselves - seems to manifest itself only under conditions of extreme stress. It may simply be that Vorlon minds themselves are so unlike other minds that communication is nearly impossible under normal conditions. There is also a strong suggestion in one of the published short stories that naturally occuring telepathy and higher intelligence are incompatible. If evolution produces telepaths they tend not to develop language or certain other skills, because needs, wants and desires require no such medium of communication. Creatures who don't develop language also don't develop certain areas of the brain needed for long-range planning, etc.

Similarly, telekinesis would almost certainly rule-out tool making, which seems to have driven brain development on Earth in a kind of feedback loop.

(There is a wonderful short story I read years ago - I've forgotten the title and the authors name - in which it is postulated that there is a natural form of anti-gravity that most races stumble across by accident quite early in their development. As a result they never invent the wheel, complex machines or much of anything else. Many of these species discover that their "gravity drive" also enables them to travel between planets and, eventually, stars. So a bunch of them show up on Earth in their floating, wooden ship and attempt to conquer the planet using bows and arrows - the most advanced weapons they have ever developed or needed. The stupid humans, having missed the basic equation for anti-gravity, have, of course, developed a technology of metal weapons, fast jets and high explosives that the invaders are simply unable to cope with. And once we figure out their anti-gravity technology - look out galaxy!)

But I digress.
smile.gif


The Vorlons have a very hard time producing Human telepaths as weapons to use against the Shadows, and leave behind and entire planet populated by their "failures" This suggests to me that the Vorlons are not themselves telepaths, though they may have developed some similar abilities late in their development, or through the use of organic technology.

Their surprise at the Thirdspace aliens may come from their belief that no intelligent species could naturally posses Psi powers.

But if Lyta - who admittedly is a highly advanced Vorlon weapon - can prevent Kosh II from learning that she's about to lead him into a death trap, I say he's no telepath.

RE: "Naranek" JMS has said that this is a title, not a proper name. It may relate to their appointment as ambassadors, to both Minbar and B5. Or it may be a title of rank indicating their place in Vorlon society. Like his creations, JMS is often cryptic.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>And it's easy to miss some things in B5, Crusader ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"You've misspelled this. There is no 'R' in Crusade."

Sorry, couldn't resist.
smile.gif


Regards,

Joe


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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division

joseph-demartino@att.net

[This message has been edited by Joseph DeMartino (edited May 27, 2001).]
 
As always, excellent points, Joe. So I'll pose the question to you: what did Kosh mean when he said "we are ALL Kosh"? Sorry if all of you hashed this out before I found this site, or in a thread I missed.

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>...what did Kosh mean when he said "we are ALL Kosh"?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The truth? I have no idea. I think certain Vorlon statements are simply alien, bizarre and beyond Human comprehension. And I'm comfortable with that.
smile.gif


In all seriousness I don't think that we are meant to find a literal meaning in every Vorlon utterance. I think it is part of the mystery that JMS built into the Vorlons and which he never meant to remove entirely. Same with the "You have always been here" addressed to Sheridan. It is just this strange little glimpse into the mind of a Vorlon, and something JMS doubtless threw in there, knowing it would never be explained but endlessly debated, for the pure pleasure of torturing us.
smile.gif
(Alfred Hitchcock once said, "I like to make the audience suffer." JMS must be a disciple of Hitchcock's.
smile.gif
)

Returning to the Vorlon mystery for a moment, this is also why I'm quite sure that we'll never "go" to the Vorlon Homeworld. Not only is it off-limits and heavily booby-trapped in any time period this side of "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars", but it would be a huge anti-climax. Nothing that could be put on film could ever be as amazing as we all imagine the Vorlon Homeworld must be. So why disappoint everyone by showing it?

Certainly JMS has been no help in understanding the whole "We are all Kosh" thing:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Actually, no, the replacement isn't Kosh, as you say, it's another Vorlon, with a very different personality... the "we are all Kosh" is more of a conceptual thing.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division

joseph-demartino@att.net

[This message has been edited by Joseph DeMartino (edited May 27, 2001).]
 
Slight tangent, but I'm under the impression that Kosh was something of an eccentric for his people, though one who retained respect and power. If he was a pariah, he wouldn't have been able to get his people to attack the Shadows in Interludes and Examinations.

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By balancing I was thinking on the same lines as the Vorlons and the Shadows. Though the Shadows were older, it probably wasn't by much. They maintained their rivalry over millions of years, until it degenerated into war. I was wondering if one of the Shadow's allies survive and balance the Humans and Minbari. If so then the future events of The Deconstruction of Falling Stars could be just into a war against them. All speculation of course.

After a million years plus, I think it'd be easy for the Humans and Minbari to forget what Sheridan and Delenn fought for and all their reasons for doing so. Besides, people get attached to things, places, and other people. They grow so accustomed to what they have that they can't perceive of things being any other way. Evolving into beings of energy clearly doesn't remove the possibility of imperfection and fault.

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Crusader:
After a million years plus, I think it'd be easy for the Humans and Minbari to forget what Sheridan and Delenn fought for and all their reasons for doing so.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It would be easy to forget, yes, but as the Ranger in The Deconstruction of Falling Stars was watching bits and pieces of Sheridan & Delenn's history and their legacy, I suppose that they - and the ideas they fought for - weren't forgotten?

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"You've misspelled this. There's no 'Y' in liberties."
"Oh, go away. Repress someone else."
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Crusader:
Slight tangent, but I'm under the impression that Kosh was something of an eccentric for his people, though one who retained respect and power. If he was a pariah, he wouldn't have been able to get his people to attack the Shadows in Interludes and Examinations.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, that is a very good point. Aren’t ALL of the ambassadors on B5 kind of eccentric? And didn’t Londo say something about how he was sent there because it was not considered very important, or no one important would want to do it, or something. Perhaps the Vorlons sent Kosh to B5 to “wise him up” a bit, and he turned the tables on them!

Someone else mentioned earlier that the Vorlons were telepathically linked to each other. I'd think having a "revolutionary" linked to everyone's mind might be a bit upsetting to a group as dedicated to organization as the Vorlons.

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino:
"You've misspelled this. There is no 'R' in Crusade."

Sorry, couldn't resist.
smile.gif


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, go away. Repress someone else.

*Turning rant mode on*:

Aarrghh! See? I get up in the middle of the night to type a perfectly polite, friendly answer to someone - and make a typo I've never, ever, ever before made, in my whole life - and Joe just has to notice that, right?!!
shocked.gif
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*Turning rant mode off*

I'll go back to read that long post of yours now.
smile.gif


Edit note: Thanks for your insights. Hmm. The connection between Vorlons and telepathy is indeed an interesting one.


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"You've misspelled this. There's no 'Y' in liberties."
"Oh, go away. Repress someone else."

[This message has been edited by Kribu (edited May 28, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Kribu (edited May 28, 2001).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino:
Regards,

Joe

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, Joe, then all bets are off! I suppose JMS didn't really have anything in mind, specifically I mean, for half of what Kosh said in B5. Just threw stuff in to make it "mysterious".

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lennier:
The Drazi wouldn't make very good First Ones unless they forget the green/purple thing...

Imagine First Ones fighting intergalactic wars every five years or so. "Green chicken, purple car - must fight!" That wouldn't give the younger species any chance to develop. It might drive them mad instead.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can see it happening...rows of purple and green encounter suits
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Say Zog to Kumabya
<A HREF="mailto:
kolya@softhome.net">
kolya@softhome.net</A>
 
This might be better in a new thread, but since we are discussing Vorlons, when did Kosh actually put a piece of himself into Sheridan?

I have often wondered if it was in Hunter,Prey when the Vorlon ship shone the green light on Sheridan. Any ideas about that?

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It's my understanding that Kosh entered Sheridan when he spoke to him in that dream as his father (when the Shadows were layin' th' Smack Down on him).

Kinda makes you wonder if there was a part of Kosh in G'Kar also (from Dust to Dust when Kosh spoke in G'Kar's dream as his father and as G'Lan). Hmmmmmmmmm.

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You are finite. Zathras is finite. This...is wrong tool.

jtk724@hotmail.com
 
hypatia:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Well, Joe, then all bets are off! I suppose JMS didn't really have anything in mind, specifically I mean, for half of what Kosh said in B5. Just threw stuff in to make it "mysterious".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I certainly wouldn't go that far. Probably 90% of what Kosh says can be directly related to show events with a little bit of thought. (Like the "avalanche and pebbles" remark, which points back to Dr. Kyle's unauthorized medical treatment of Kosh in the pilot.) But I think some of that residual 10% is "atmosphere" stuff, not so much meaningless, as not just illustrating how alien the Vorlons are.

Something similar happens with the Human dialogue, after all. Not every line is there as a plot point. Some of it is to illustrate character, some to give a sense of the B5 universe as a whole ("I've seen the Pope, she doesn't look anything like him"), some just to be funny. You could spend hours analyzing Garibaldi's "Pope" remark trying to link it to plot elements or overall themes within the show (and believe me, people have), but when you get right down to it, the line is just there as another reminder that we're in the future and that things have changed. It has no deeper meaning in story terms.

Similarly it is my theory that some of the Vorlon lines are just there because they sound cool and cryptic, point to some larger plan by the Vorlons and will drive us nuts trying to figure them out. Don't forget - JMS is, first and last, a fan. So he knows how he used to analyze Star Trek and Twilight Zone and all the shows and books he grew up on. He's also a mystery writer, and knows the value of misdirection and red-herrings.

Zathras:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Kinda makes you wonder if there was a part of Kosh in G'Kar also (from Dust to Dust when Kosh spoke in G'Kar's dream as his father and as G'Lan)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If this had been the case we certainly would have seen evidence of it later in the series or the novels, and we didn't. Also I think there is a big difference between entering someone's thoughts (as Kosh did with Sheridan when he was imprisoned on the alien ship, and with G'Kar in "Dust to Dust") and putting a piece of oneself inside another being, as both Kosh's do repeatedly with Lyta, and Kosh I does with Sheridan.

From what we do see in the series it would appear that the Vorlons only temporarily break off pieces of themselves and implant them in others so that they can travel undetected. (And it appears that the "carrier" must in some way be modified in order to carry a Vorlon. This was done to Lyta on the Vorlon homeworld, and may have been part of what Kosh was up to in training Sheridan over the course of nearly a year.) Then they reclaim "themselves."

The Kosh/Sheridan situation was unique. Kosh knew that he was dying, and that the only way that he could save a part of himself (and protect Sheridan) was to implant a part of himself in Sheridan before time ran out. In the case of G'Kar, Kosh was merely sending a message. There was certainly no need to stick around in G'Kar's mind after the message was sent, and no reason at all to "break off a piece of himself" and leave it in G'Kar.

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division

joseph-demartino@att.net

[This message has been edited by Joseph DeMartino (edited May 28, 2001).]
 
I was just thinking about what you said about modifying hosts Joe and have an idea. If Sheridan had not been modified, it might mean that Kosh using an emergency invasive procedure could not get out of him without the aid of a First One. Lyta having been conditioned to respond in that way, could transmit and receive Kosh without much hassle (depending on thevorlon).

What do you reckon?

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"We Live for the One. We die for the One!"
 

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