Encounter Suits

[taichidave]

I took "We are all Kosh" to mean that each Vorlon in some way carries a piece or memory of every other Vorlon. Vorlons can break pieces of themselves away. Why wouldn't they enhance their own life experiences with others?

It also sounds cryptic and mystical.

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"We are all Kosh."

 

[hypatia]

I am really enjoying this thread! It seems that the more you try to understand the Vorlons, the more fragmented any kind of explanation becomes! Didn't Kosh say at some point "Good" when Sheridan commented on how annoying a typical Vorlon reply is? I guess that's where we all are supposed to be! It does keep one on one's toes, so to speak!

And I still find it amazing that a cohesive "arc" could be constructed that was still flexible enough to allow cast memebers to leave, etc... all the hassle of dealing with the networks entailed. How can you have direction and keep your options open the entire time? It's beyond me.

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[Babylon-ocholic]

Joe make a better point than me. Whew, I though my brain was working again.

I do believe the Vorlons only Psi powers are:
Projection in the mind ( like dreams ),
Teaching some one, but this could be technology,
Empathy,
an sending signals ( Probably to their ships, people, etc. )

If anyone care to elaborate, feel free.

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Don't think about it,
I can imagine a moonlit beach, with waves, and Kosh playing in the water in a bathing suit.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>If Sheridan had not been modified, it might mean that Kosh using an emergency invasive procedure<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very possibly. I still suspect that Kosh was subtly modifying Sheridan every time he touched his mind, and through-out Sheridan's training, so that by the time Sheridan went to Z'ha'dum he would be capable of carrying Kosh as his ace-in-the-hole. I doubt the Kosh meant to physically accompany Sheridan to Z'ha'dum, as it would have been almost impossible for him to go undetected. This may also explain why... (see section below spoiler space.

)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> [and] could not get out of him without the aid of a First One.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, Kosh also didn't have anywhere else to go at that point, remember. His body (and yes - he had a body) had been torn to pieces in his quarters. It is less that he wasn't able to leave without Lorien's help, it's that he wasn't willing to - since doing so would kill the last of him. (For creatures who live as long as the Vorlons do, personal death may even be more frightening a prospect than it is for us short-lived species. We're used to seeing those around us die, especially as we get older, and we gradually become accoustomed to the idea. Kosh may have been the first Vorlon to die in millennia, perhaps millions of years.)

Spoilers for the rest of S3 and early S4:

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In the end Kosh had to go through the same process that Sheridan did: accept the inevitable, let go, and move on, trusting that whe he accomplished in dying would serve the cause.

If Kosh did subtly modify Sheridan in some way over the course of his "training" this may also explain why Sheridan seemed changed permanently, even after Kosh left. Sheridan's ability to be healed by Lorien may be a side-affect of this, as might his immunity to Lyta's powers and his eventual ability to accompany Lorien "beyond the Rim" in "Sleeping in Light" It seems to be the case that the original plan for the Lyta character would be that the first scan in "The Gathering" would start a process that continued on its own. Maybe Kosh's contact with Sheridan had a similar effect.

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

 

[Babylon-ocholic]

*Strokes his chin*

I feel my memory is flingy in Joe's presence.
Thanks for the information and thoughts.

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Don't think about it,
I can imagine a moonlit beach, with waves, and Kosh playing in the water in a bathing suit.

 

[Galahad]

The Vorlons psi powers are far more extensive than earlier post mentioned. First of all Kosh and Ulkesh were teeks, Kosh slapped Sheridan around something wrotten and cut his face without so much as touching him. Ulkesh throttled Lyta, and fired an energy blast from his helmet though this could be a countermeasure incorporated into the encounter suit. Secondly, anything Lyta can do, in no way transcends the Vorlon's abilities, they programmed her with things they could do. They wouldn't make a time bomb they couldn't control, they wouldbn't make anything they couldn't control by nature, except when their ego get's the better of them like with the Thirdspace project.

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"We Live for the One. We die for the One!"

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Humans made knives, guns and eventually atom bombs, all things which greatly exceed our natural ability to inflict damage on other living things. That's what intelligent organisms do, use technology to exceed their own abilities.

If we came up with a brain implant chip that could control the actions of a Kodiak bear or a mountain gorilla, would that imply we could take either of them in a hand-to-hand fight?

Nothing that Kosh (or Ulkesh) does requires that they have natural telekinetic to even telepathic power. It could all be technlogy built into their encounter suits. (Galen, Elric and the other technomages acheive similar effects at various times, and they are neither teeps nor teeks.)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Ulkesh throttled Lyta, and fired an energy blast from his helmet<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But he didn't scan her mind, or anyone else's, and learn that the Humans were planning to murder him. The Vorlons certainly weren't restricted by PsiCorps regulations about unauthorized scans, so if they were Thermo-Teeps on the order of Lyta, how did two of them end up dead when at the very least they could have evaded their assassins?

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

[This message has been edited by Joseph DeMartino (edited May 31, 2001).]

 

[Galahad]

Could be their arrogant streak again. Oh those petty bipeds can't hurt us.

When has an overbearing parent ever shown fear of their offspring. Up until this point, apart from the isolated incident with Kosh's poisoning, no younger race to our knowledge had ever come close to scratching the Vorlons.

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"We Live for the One. We die for the One!"

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Could be their arrogant streak again. Oh those petty bipeds can't hurt us.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kosh was killed by Morden and several Shadows. He knew that they would inevitably move against him, but he evidently did not know where or when, because they trapped him alone in his quarters and quite literally took him apart. How does a telepath and telekinetic far more powerful than Lyta let this happen? How do you "sneak up" on someone like that?

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

One teep can sneak up on another.

Consequently either Kosh wasn't a teep (but Lorien seemed to imply he was, which was why Sheridan wanted Ulkesh off the station) or the Shadows are telepathic as well (which would make it inexplicable how Londo's bodyguards were able to shoot them).

This contradiction doesn't exist if we assume that Kosh had accepted his fate and Ulkesh couldn't (or didn't care to) read Lyta's thoughts thoroughly enough.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited May 31, 2001).]

 

[Babylon-ocholic]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Galahad:
Oh those petty bipeds can't hurt us.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


And they never did. Kosh killed Ulkesh, or what was left of him.

And about the sneaking thing...As far as I remember Kosh didn't even bother to put up much of a fight, he was like Obi-Wan, serving Sheriden after he was dead, and it was unaviodable. Lyta MAY on a slim chance, hid the plan of attacking Ulkesh deep in her mind, but I doubt it.



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Don't think about it,
I can imagine a moonlit beach, with waves, and Kosh playing in the water in a bathing suit.

 

[Galahad]

I think you are probably right about the fighting thing. Morden is always seen with at least two shadows flanking him. When Kosh confronted them in the 1st season, he took them out but sustained damage. Perhaps this is why there was an extra shadow present at the execution, past experience and all. Kosh's actions are very interesting. Why did he fight in the 1st season? We are told the vorlons and shadows avoid direct conflict. Kosh is definitely not a normal vorlon, and Morden seemed to know this, as he is more than ready to confront Kosh with his allies.

Kosh could have been laying the foundations for Sheridan's crucible to bring the truth out!

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"We Live for the One. We die for the One!"

 

[Sherool]

If I recall corectly right before Sheridan sprang the trap on Ulkesh he became suspicious of Lyta and ordered her to "open her mind" to him.

IMHO that indicates that he is capable of reading her mind, but not powerfull enough to do so without her cooperation (she was the "telepatic equivelent of a nuclear bomb" after all). Also keep in mind that there are several "types" of telepatic powers. Even the most powerfull of human telepaths can't use telekenesis(sp?), but even weak telepatchs can have telepatic "bonds" across several light years (like those women that used to follow the Centauri emperor around, and those "keepers" the Drakh used where not "telepatic" at all, but they where still "bonded" to the Drakh that spawned them regardless of distance).

My point is that just because they can pin you agaisnt the wall and make you see things doesn't nessesarely mean that they can read your mind, at least not unless you want them to... That is probably another reason for theyr encounter suits, I seem to recall Talia saying that the suit was "shielded" against telepatic scans, wich would indicate that the vorlons might not be eable to block a "traditional" telepath on theyr own.

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[Joseph DeMartino]

Morden's associates are definitely Shadows. They look nothing like the Soldier of Darkness which was, among other things, a hell of a lot bigger.

And the lightning effect surrounding B5 has nothing to do with fighting. Do you remember what Corwin says when asked what the source of the power surge is? "It is a non-localized phenomemnon." Do you remember the words Delenn used to describe the soul?

Coincidence? I don't think so.

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Morden was accompanied (at least on B5) by 2 or 3 of those guys:

I would positively identify those as Shadows. At the moment when Londo's bodyguards shot two of Morden's *associates* we didn't have a good chance to see them... but I think they were the same. I can only conclude that both the Vorlons and Shadows tend to be a bit overconfident.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited June 05, 2001).]

 

[Galahad]

Definitely Shadows, and the Shadows aren't necessarily telepathic at all, otherwise why waltz off with loads of frozen telepaths to use as countermeasures against teep attack? If they had teeps of their own before all that, surely there would be no jamming problem in their vessels?

Anyway has anyone answered the Kosh/Shadow slap about thing yet? Look at my previous post, I'd appreciate any ideas or comments about that one it is a bit of a head scratcher

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"We Live for the One. We die for the One!"

 

[Galahad]

Oh by the way, the OTHER major piece of evidence against there being Soldiers of Darkness on B% with Morden is the distinctly low body count during these periods. They just love those fleshy snacks don't they?

IDEA!!!!!!

These characters have been largely untouched during the Shadow war, and seeing as they are not Shadows... they could be another force for the Rangers to have a crack at!!! Do you think that they can uncloak like the Shadows? Or are they constantly invisible. I think if you were to use them realistically in future plots, it would be better to see more of them after all Rangers are trained in melee fighting, it would look a bit weird to see them beating up thin air. I wonder how many rangers it would take to bag a Soldier of Darkness?

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"We Live for the One. We die for the One!"

 

[bakana]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> But he didn't scan her mind, or anyone else's, and learn that the Humans were planning to murder him. The Vorlons certainly weren't restricted by PsiCorps regulations about unauthorized scans, so if they were Thermo-Teeps on the order of Lyta, how did two of them end up dead when at the very least they could have evaded their assassins?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, just as the trap was closing, Ulkesh got suspicious and demanded to know what Lyta was plotting. He then attacked her telepathicly and took the information from her mind. It was just too late by then.

Vorlons and Shadows are both shown using telepathy. It just doesn't come _Easily_ even to First Ones.

As far as whether or not it is a _Natural_ ability, I'd bet the First Ones have the ability to "tinker" with their own minds and "install" any talents they might find useful. Or "unplug" any talent that was not currently needed. Kosh could very well have a stash of extra abilities on a "shelf" aboard his ship.

Any ability that is genetically based, the First Ones would be able to duplicate and use. They are, after all, experts in Organic Technology. Which means that they would posses All the Psi abilities we've seen.

Including Precognition. That would explain why Kosh knows he will probably Die if he helps Sheridan. As was once stated, "it is a Possible future ... we shape the future by our actions." So, Kosh can see several _Possible_ futures and is trying to choose between them.

It might be that Seers can only see events in the future that involve _Them_ in some way. It's a pretty good bet the Shadows have these abilities. This would explain how you can keep secrets from a precognitive. He/she can see events in his/her own future, but cannot see the Choices made by others which Led to any particular future.




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Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?

 

[Sherool]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Galahad:
(...)

I wonder how many rangers it would take to bag a Soldier of Darkness?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If they where restricted to "stick fight" with it I don't think any number would be enough. They might be eable to win against 10:1 odds againse most aliens in a melee fight, but against a soldier of darkness theyr fighting stick would be about as usefull as trying to club an assault tank to death... If they had a powerfull enough weapon one ranger would probably be enough though, I suspect even the heavy PPG rifels the B5 securety teams use are not the most powerfull weapons out there (they are intended for use inside a space station after all).

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[bakana]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> or the Shadows are telepathic as well (which would make it inexplicable how Londo's bodyguards were able to shoot them). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Those weren't Shadows. They had the same appearance as the "Soldier of Darkness" which arrived aboard the Copernicus. Several times we saw them defer to Morden's judgement, conversing with him in the manner or Equals. They seemed to function as part of a team. They seemed to protect Morden while he made it possible for them to get on and off the station undetected. (People get suspicious when empty ships show up.) They were the perfect Spy, being able to go almost anywhere unseen.

Watching for the Soldiers may well have been Kosh's most important function on Babylon 5. He Knew they had arrived almost as soon as they showed up the first time. We know he fought them and took damage to his encounter suit at the time.

They must have arrived at a truce of some sort. There weren't a bunch of invisible Soldiers hanging around eavesdropping on everyone. But, Kosh didn't interfere with the ones following Morden around. You have to wonder how many Kosh might have killed in that skirmish?

Protecting the station from Soldiers of Darkness would explain the Light which seemed to travel the length of the station when Kosh was killed and again when Ulkesh died. They could very well have broken off portions of themselves and wrapped it around the station as a "burglar alarm" to detect an intrusion.

It would also explain how the Soldiers could kill Kosh. A significant part of him was busy while they were attacking his body. That might have been the piece that ended up inside Sheridan.

As far as Ulkesh not being able to see Kosh inside Sheridan, Kosh probably didn't WANT to be seen. Kosh had his own agenda which probably didn't include being sent back to the Vorlon homeworld to grow a new body, a new ship and a new encounter suit. Even Vorlon medical care takes Time. They'd probably have to clean a lot of dust off the Hospital.

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Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?