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Enterprise vs. Rangers

There is a letter in the "Science Fiction Weekly" magazine on the scifi.com website. It is someone going on and on about how obvious it is that JMS coppied his B5 storyline from DS9.

I thought that just about everyone knew the true story about that by now.
crazy.gif
I am not putting the address in, since I doubt its worth reading yourselves. It is just the same old crapola being recycled ad nauseum, isn't it?

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"I do not believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense,
reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."-- Galileo
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dylan Neal:

I'm referring to the American TV Guide, the week of Aug 25-31 with Scott Bakula and Jolene Blalock on the cover with the title "THE NEXT TREK".

Let me give you a few similarities. .....
Regards,

Dylan

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I think that the differences deserve mention too, in my own unpolished off the cuff thoughts.

The Rangers are part of a long-standing, proud tradition of warrior-priests. They are part of an established space faring society. The Enterpries crew are space flight newbies...

The Chief Engineer of the Enterprise is going to become pregnant and grow nipples out of his arm. Rangers will have G'kar.

On the Liandra there may be personality conflicts but on the Enterprise,the Captain is gonna be zenophobic.

Enterprise is going for a Wild Wild West feel. When was the last time you saw a Western do well on TV?

Enterprise is going to be a series starting at the end of the month. It could be a flop and be a distant memory before Rangers ever hits the air as a series...

Dylan, people will make comparisons. As a Ships Captain your character will be compared to EVERY space-ship captain to grace our TV set. No matter that TREK has a new series out, people would compare Rangers to Voyager or Battlestar Galactica or Trek:TOS...

I can't say if Rangers will suffer under these comparisons or not. I can only tell you to to be proud of what you've created. Stand up for it. Your fans are with you.

BTW, check out
http://talk.trekweb.com/articles/2001/09/01/999370842.html
to see where I got my enterprise comments from.

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The avalance has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Don't you think that we can be a bunch of occassionally self righteous, anal retentive, bitchie, self indulgent arseholes who just pick and pick and pick at something until it bleeds (some... not all!). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, you can.
laugh.gif


Kidding, just kidding. Don't hit me. Waah!

Anyway, I quoted that sentence because you're right (Shh, don't tell anyone I agreed with you, Catheryn).

However, Dylan wasn't talking about the fans. He seemed more concerned about the network execs who get to decide whether or not we get a Rangers series. We may understand that they shouldn't be compared, but The Suits don't, and they have the power.

Maybe Catheryn should bring her "inner-bitch" over to the studio and give 'em a good talkin' to; tell 'em where it's at. You go girl!
wink.gif


Dylan, we can speculate all we want about how Enterprise will affect the likelihood of the go-ahead for a Rangers series. I was actually thinking of asking you and your colleagues the same question. At least you're in "The Biz," so your guesses are better than ours. Sorry.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
 
*twitch* it's all those "compare and contrast" essays we did as children.

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Channe, Freelance Writer Extraordinaire and The Next JMS
--
B5 Synchroninity of the Day: I just found out that the new dorm I'm living in next year has been named Breen Hall.
 
One of the Enterprise characters becomes pregnant & grows nipples out of their arm?!!

Think I'll skip enterprise.
tongue.gif


Tammy

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"We're in here! Can anyone hear us?"
"I hear you." [giggle, laugh]
"In here!"
"We are here." [giggle, laugh]
-- Londo and G'Kar in Babylon 5:"Convictions"

Tammy's Station
http://community.webtv.net/gkarfan/TammysStation
 
Well, IMHO B5 is much better than DS9. I tried watching that show, and I just could not get into it. Now, B5, I can get into!
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Since I feel that B5 is a better show than DS9, I think Rangers has a good chance of being better than Enterprise. Channe was right in saying that Trek is a cultural institution that is beginning to fail. But I feel that B5 is one that is just starting to come into its own, so I feel that there is more hope for Rangers being a sucess than for Enterprise.

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Long live the Salad Rangers! We live for the Salad Bar, we die for the Salad Bar.
 
And it's buzzworthy.

*nods*

It's got a gunnery officer who becomes the ship during battle.

*grins*

And it's got a captain who has issues (oh, and he's cute, too.)

And it has G'Kar.

And the ship is a rustbucket (kind of like my car).

--

Faith manages. But marketing works better.
smile.gif


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Channe, Freelance Writer Extraordinaire and The Next JMS
--
B5 Synchroninity of the Day: I just found out that the new dorm I'm living in next year has been named Breen Hall.
 
stories about guys with swords: Highlander, Braveheart, Zorro, Exacalibur, The First Knight, Beastmaster, Conan the Barbarian,The Princess Bride, The Musketeer.

stories about the reluctant/unexpected hero: the Hobbitt, any Jackie Chan movie, Better Off Dead, Joe Vs The Volcano, Heaven Can Wait, The Quiet Man, It's A Wonderful Life, Casablanca

stories about odd/difficult romances: Taming of the Shrew, You've Got Mail, Return To Me, Some Like It Hot, His Girl Friday, Oedepus Rex, Mad About You, Titanic

My point: each summary above contains wildly different stories of wildly different quality and mood. There are similarities, but true quality wins out and in the end, each is judged on it's own.

Don't worry, the Rangers movie (and series) will also win out on it's own, even though there are some people who haven't got the energy to look past the superficial and coincidental. Geeze, the fact that Mr Neal is posting here and absorbing all he can about the B5 universe and his fans goes a long way to proving to me that the people behind this series (JMS, Dylan, etc) are going to do everything they can and needto to make it succeed.

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-Devin Barber
 
I've read just about everything about the DS9/B5 troubles. And I have to say paramount is extremely underhanded. They set out to bury Babylon 5, telling everyone it was a load of crap etc. They even threatened directors, saying if they worked for b5 then they'd never get a job with them again. Worst thing I heard about that really ticked me off about hearing it, was that Stephen Furst (plays Vir) was going to be interviewed on some chat show. Thing is it was owned by paramount, and when they found out he worked for B5 he was bumped from the show. I'm sure Dylan has access to more inside information about the tactics employed by paramount as JMS has often spoke of the evidence he had against paramount. That he would of gone up against them if it weren't for the bad light it'd put B5 in.

Thing is with that was that paramount had access to the babylon 5 bible, the pilot script, show overview and art. So it's hard not to believe they snuck a peak at th opposition. You can tell the effect it had on DS9's pilot with such similarities as -

1. Odo the changeling vs Minbari with changeling net. Changeling to my knowledge was a new term, as I first heard it from B5/DS9.
2. A horde of cap ships threatening to blow up the station, at a set time unless demands are met.
3. The obvious name followed by number title of the stations.
4. A travel point for new trade relations just next to the station, wormhole/jumpgate.

But as for Rangers/Enterprise, I don't see how they could have gotten hold of a script so the similarities will be at most based on what's heard so far about the two shows. As Dylan pointed out, but considering this is such a change from what's expected from Trek... it seems more suspect. And considering the ship design is basically the same as the Akira, you can tell they are really lacking in originality. Even heard the new Trek movie uses a fight sequence almost identical to one used in a trek book for a different scenerio. Again, showing lack of originality.

Though I really can't see Trek's plot coming close to Rangers, nor professionalism of the crew/cast... but for me Trek has gone downhill after TOS with every show so i'm biased.
smile.gif
But unfortunately there will be those who won't see past superficial similarities, and pick their show over the other.

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BETH: "Well all I did was go for a really long walk."
JIMMY: "Where'd you go?"
BETH: "I don't know... I mean... all over the city, I guess... and then somehow I ended up standing outside Bill's apartment building and... I wanted to make sure he was... really gone, you know... so I figured out which window was his and then I just started yelling, you know, "BILL, HEY BILL!!!"
JIMMY: "And then what happened?"
BETH: "Well, finally someone opened their window and yelled down, "Shut the hell up you crazy bitch!"
JOE: "That's just what Bill would've done."
BETH: "Yeah, and that just made me think... his spirit lives on in others." - Newsradio
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dark Lord:
1. Odo the changeling vs Minbari with changeling net. Changeling to my knowledge was a new term, as I first heard it from B5/DS9.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Quick point (I'm afraid I'm in pedant mode today
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): "changeling" is an old term used to refer to a baby that has been taken away by the fairies, with a fairy or dummy child left in its place. It was usually used to explain a child whose development seemed wrong (e.g. suffering from what we would define as a brain or mental disorder) or which died a cot death. I expect that the Changeling Net is referring to the first concept, as the Minbari assassin wore it to replace Sinclair in meeting with Kosh. As Odo was picked up when young and was not as a Bajoran child, then this would explain why he was referred to as a changeling.

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Actually, jms' initial version of the pilot script, the one that Paramount had, contained a true shape-changer instead of a Minbari with a changeling net.

(Also, the thing that made him even more upset was that he was close to striking a deal with Paramount, and getting promises about the show airing by fall 1990. Then they suddenly stopped all talks, claiming they had a similar show in development.)

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You are not entitled to your own opinion. You are only entitled to your own informed opinion.
-- Harlan Ellison qouting Gustave Flaubert
 
I may have this wrong, so all you thought police out there take a chill pill!
tongue.gif


This is semi in response to Drakhs post about Paramount suddenly saying to JMS that they had a similar show in development.

APPARENTLY the same thing happened to Gene Roddenberry in 1963 or 64 when he was taking Star Trek through the studio rounds trying to get a Network interested.

I can't remember which studio it was, but it eventually churned out Lost In Space. After initial talks, and Gene handing over his basic bible, they dumped him and said: "Thanks, we have a space show in development."

All I can say to that, JMS is in good company - though there was apparently bad blood between Gene and JMS when Mr Roddenberry was alive (which I think was closed and forgiven when Majel Barrett-Roddenberry guest starred on B5).

If JMS does anywhere near as well as Gene Roddenberry did, we will enjoy Babylon 5 for many years to come.

Also... who gives a rats hinie what the studios did. Hello! It's Hollywood. The name of the game is duplication, and money. Please tell me where morals and honour fit into that equation? I'm not forgiving them, or justifying they're actions, but JMS is not the only producer/creator alive to have been ripped off. Nor will he sadly be the last.

How many times has Star Trek been ripped off?

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"Officially, I'm a P5. Unofficially, my range is more... much more."
 
It has been ripped off, but not as damagingly as B5 was (and could be again).

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Channe, Freelance Writer Extraordinaire and The Next JMS
--
B5 Synchroninity of the Day: I just found out that the new dorm I'm living in next year has been named Breen Hall.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Catheryn:
I can't remember which studio it was, but it eventually churned out Lost In Space. After initial talks, and Gene handing over his basic bible, they dumped him and said: "Thanks, we have a space show in development."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Not the same situation... Jms got far beyond initial talks, was close to signig a contract.

Also, Star Trek did not use Roddenberry's bible, but a substantialy different one written by Samuel A. Peeples (who also wrote the script that got Star Trek on the air). <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>All I can say to that, JMS is in good company - though there was apparently bad blood between Gene and JMS when Mr Roddenberry was alive (which I think was closed and forgiven when Majel Barrett-Roddenberry guest starred on B5).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I doubt Gene Roddenberry ever knew who jms was. Majel did however make public statements about B5 being a DS9 rip-off and, and actively sabotaged the first public screening of the B5 pilot. A few years later, she surprisingly made several positive remarks about B5 while speaking at a con, and noted she felt bad about the previous incdent. Jms heard this, and offered her the B5 role when the two met at a con.

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You are not entitled to your own opinion. You are only entitled to your own informed opinion.
-- Harlan Ellison qouting Gustave Flaubert
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mercurius420:
ahh DS9...

i have to consider this a poor mans Babylon 5...
[dont get me wrong... i LUV DS9]
laugh.gif


the only problem i had with it was no solid arc...

i remember missing three seasons of DS9 and everything still made sense... there is no way i could do that with Babylon 5...

also the stupidest ep of DS9 had to be when the runabout was shrunk super small with the Julian, O'brien, and Dax on board... then they fly into the Defiant, beam into the access panel, fix a computer more than a hundred times their size it seems... defeat the dominion onboard the defiant...

then miraculously return to normal size...

[This episode must have been a original idea of the DS9 writing staff]

i pray at night that nothing... and i mean NOTHING happens like this in anything JMS writes ...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree totally. You can go into DS9 after missing a large amount of eps and still know whats going on. I`ve seen a fair bit of the last 2 or 3 seasons of B5 out of order and I`m bamboozled, but I still watch it, hoping to find something I`ll recognise.
The episode in question (One Little Ship) was really just one of those p**s-take romps every series has now and again.
But IMHO, no in-development sf series currently on tv can beat Farscape. I don`t think Enterprise will so I`m just waiting to see if Rangers can do the bizz.
May I be so bold as to say that Farscape and B5 are equally the best sf series ever (albeit in different ways) with Stargate and DS9 coming a close second.

The days of Trek are gone, although I have high hopes for Trek X, I`m not expecting a miracle from Enterprise, but here`s hoping.

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"In Times of War, the Laws Fall Silent"
 
i agree farscape is the BEST show on tv... but just wait until a certain pilot movie airs on the same channel... and then well talk again

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I have no one to envy...
I envy you having me to envy...
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Catheryn:
If JMS does anywhere near as well as Gene Roddenberry did, we will enjoy Babylon 5 for many years to come.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Erm, he's all ready far exceeded Gene since JMS' show didn't get cancelled. Nor is it being revisted some 30 years later but given another chance, twice very shortly down the road. Crusade would still be on the air if JMS didn't sabotage it, he could have conformed to TNT's wishes and kept it going. I'd prefer it axed than a wrestling/porn show in space. I also recall that JMS has all ready been offered money for a feature film, 50 million I believe but wishes to wait until Star Wars is outta the way.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Also... who gives a rats hinie what the studios did. Hello! It's Hollywood. The name of the game is duplication, and money. Please tell me where morals and honour fit into that equation? I'm not forgiving them, or justifying they're actions, but JMS is not the only producer/creator alive to have been ripped off. Nor will he sadly be the last.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do for one. I would love to see your reaction to making something creative for a long time, trying to get what you invision made and before it does someone copies it and then tries to stop you from getting your chance. Then when you do get it made, are accused of stealing the creativity from someone else. Then have people say 'who cares, I expect hollywood to be dirty and treat people like crap.' I for one wouldn't have been so light hearted about it all as JMS is, I'd be calling for nothing less than the heads of those who stepped on me. JMS gave an interesting comparison, something along the lines of -

'You've been working on your custom car for years, she's a real beaut. You give the keys to a seemingly nice person posing as a friend to take a spin, but ends up stealing it. The guy then drives past you everyday, rubbing it in your face. How would you feel?' Not only that but they keep trying to run you over everytime you try to work on a new car.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>How many times has Star Trek been ripped off?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can't recall any times, most I can think of is a parody of Trek. Patrick (picard) did think Red Dwarf was a rip-off for about 5 seconds though.

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BETH: "Well all I did was go for a really long walk."
JIMMY: "Where'd you go?"
BETH: "I don't know... I mean... all over the city, I guess... and then somehow I ended up standing outside Bill's apartment building and... I wanted to make sure he was... really gone, you know... so I figured out which window was his and then I just started yelling, you know, "BILL, HEY BILL!!!"
JIMMY: "And then what happened?"
BETH: "Well, finally someone opened their window and yelled down, "Shut the hell up you crazy bitch!"
JOE: "That's just what Bill would've done."
BETH: "Yeah, and that just made me think... his spirit lives on in others." - Newsradio
 
Bakana, I would definately be upset if that situation happened to me! I don't recall saying that JMS or anyone else should not be upset?

It's happened to my brother, he worked in television as an actor, producer and writer. He created a pilot in 1992 that was focused on confronting society with its bigotry against homosexuals. The series was to focus on youth culture and individual expression. It was not aired due to its content which included commentary by a major church official , plus a leading politician confirmed he was gay in the pilot. It is different to sweating for years over a creative idea that you have poured your soul into, but there are strong similarities, even though one is fiction and the other is documentary/life style.

It was axed. Filmed, edited, scored, never aired. One year later, another network produced the show and he got nothing for it. We can't prove a thing, and it is now ancient history, but you can't help but wonder! I supported him through that with the family.

I have little love for Hollywood, and the narrow to non-existent vision they possess, but it is how it is - that is all I was trying to say, and in my opinion it IS wrong. If I did not admire, and more importantly respect JMS I would not be posting here at all, nor would I in my blundering way be defending him, and on other occassions challenging what I know of him to discover the true and false.

I don't think, and have never believed that JMS stole anything.

When I first saw B5 I was with a close friend who was a Star Trek fan, and I said to her: "This is great, this guy has done everything he can to be as unlike Star Trek as possible." That view has never changed.

After the experiences my family have been through, I honestly feel (whether anyone agrees or not) to fight it you need to accept it and understand the mentality before you can move forward and beyond it. Idealism is wonderful and so necessary, but sometimes to fight the beast, you need to comprehend its nature, accept its nature, and learn from whatever lesson is sprung on you. Like JMS did. I believe he became a better producer for his struggles, though I would never have wished them on him.

I have no idea if I am making any sense!?
smile.gif


Perhaps the fatalism expressed in my post was unavoidably misinterpreted. I do apologise for that.

Once again, I failed in my post to get across my point. This constant debate to me is beside the point. I was personally just very tired of hearing it, but by commenting on it added to the fire. It angers me, and it destroys my love for the genre, and for the fans. There was no reason for my irritated post, this place is for open discussion, whether I like what is discussed or not. To everyone I apologise.

Thanks for prompting this clarification!
smile.gif
It's always good to be made accountable for what you say. At the very least it means people are actually READING what you post!
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"Officially, I'm a P5. Unofficially, my range is more... much more."

[This message has been edited by Catheryn (edited September 08, 2001).]
 
The problem with TV is that it deals with emotions, while the people running the show only care about money.

I wish that the networks wold bring in people who understand *both* art & commerce!

Tammy

PS--I guess you could say the same about music & film.

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"We're in here! Can anyone hear us?"
"I hear you." [giggle, laugh]
"In here!"
"We are here." [giggle, laugh]
-- Londo and G'Kar in Babylon 5:"Convictions"

Tammy's Station
http://community.webtv.net/gkarfan/TammysStation
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> I have no idea if I am making any sense!? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, you are. I'm scared. I've lately been agreeing with Catheryn. What the hell is going on?!

Now I feel an urge to upset her, just for the hell of it.

Um, women are stupid. Yeah, that's it.
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There, I feel better now.
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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
 

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