Galactica Season 4 (Spoilers Within)

[Alluveal]

I would think a viper w/o AI would be easier to reconstruct than another raider. =)

But, I would like to know exactly how that happened myself.

 

[Galahad]

I would think a viper w/o AI would be easier to reconstruct than another raider. =)

But, I would like to know exactly how that happened myself.

But resurrection is just the transference of consciousness from one body to another. The bodies the cylons download into are grown and stored in those birthing tanks. I'd imagine something similar occurs with raiders. The cylons build the hull design while growing the organic consciousness matter in a pool. When a new raider cosnciousness comes online or an old one is downloaded, the organic matter is transferred from it's birthing tank and installed into the hull.

Recreating an exact duplicate of a pre-existing viper in such a short space of time wouldn't be easy, especially given that whoever was on the other side had never seen a colonial viper before.

I'm wondering if something else is at work here.

 

[GKarsEye]

Warning: RANT


The more I think about this episode the more pissed off I am, because everything everyone says makes sense even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff but I don't know wtf is going on. OK granted I don't remember everything as well as some fans but I'm not an idiot and I've picked up on really good things, in terms of plot and theme, from quality long-term shows that I think had a little more care in how it was all put together (Babylon 5, The Wire) that many other viewers missed on first or second viewings. It just seems they're playing the equivalent of 52 pick-up with story threads. Oh, let's just make a bunch of people cylons and have them have existed before and mush everything up and then wouldn't be fun to try to explain it all somehow.

No it's not fun, it's stupid.

I had a feeling that as soon as the mutiny thread was over and they got back to this crap with the mythologies and the human-is-a-robot-is-a-human-but-not-really-but-from-the-PAST kind of bullshit I'd get filled with all the hatred I developed for this goddamn show in seasons 3 and 4.1 and unfortunately it's true.

The next episode should just be a big war and everybody dies in the end. Except Ellen, because when she was still just a woman and not a McGuffin, she reminded me of the type of woman I'd flirt with at the local bar. The only good thing about this last episode was watching the actress try to wrestle as many quality moments as she could from that ridiculous dialogue.

RANT over. Y'all can go back to trying to play the writer's mind-fuck games, I'm sure you're putting more thought into this story than they are.

 

[vacantlook]

I've got to say: With it revealed that John Cavil knew the identities of the "Final Five" all along, that he repetitiously had sex with Ellen, who is much like a mother to him, and all the other non-five models for that matter, really wigs me out.

One good thing about this episode was that it gave a lot of very dense material for the actor playing Ellen to work with. I think I have a much greater appreciation for her acting skills as a result of this episode. It's definitely left me want to see more of her character.

 

[Alluveal]

The next episode should just be a big war and everybody dies in the end. Except Ellen, because when she was still just a woman and not a McGuffin, she reminded me of the type of woman I'd flirt with at the local bar. The only good thing about this last episode was watching the actress try to wrestle as many quality moments as she could from that ridiculous dialogue.

RANT over. Y'all can go back to trying to play the writer's mind-fuck games, I'm sure you're putting more thought into this story than they are.

I don't know that I'd classify her as a McGuffin. Maybe for that particular episode.

But, I can't blame you. As someone who feels like she is pretty up to date on BSG mythology and such, I was a bit miffed that I had to watch the thing twice (and I'm still not sure about some stuff.)

And Vacant, I remember in a Moore interview, he said that by making Ellen the last of the five (before this last episode aired,) that it would lend a certain amount of creepiness to her scene with Cavil.

Cavil seems like a petulant child now more than anything. I want my way mommy or I'll stomp my feet!

 

[GKarsEye]

The actor playing Cavil was actually damn good as well. Same guy from Quantum Leap, right?

If Ellen wasn't technically a McGuffin, maybe the bullet in that guy's head was. A convenient way to vomit forth a lot of backstory that they pulled out of their asses.

And you know, that's what bothers me at the heart of all this. When you're watching Babylon 5 and it's revealed who Valen really was, or what the Shadows and Vorlons were really about, and important details about Delenn's past that effects the stories, it made sense. It explained things that happened before, and more importantly, when you watch the series again it all works together for the most part. With something like B5, you feel you're being shown pieces of a puzzle.

On the one hand maybe it's not fair to compare two shows. But on the other hand, you do get somewhat involved and engaged in a story, and if I'm going to invest the time to watch, the waiting between episodes and seasons (and half-season, stupid sci-fi channel), then I want pieces of a puzzle revealed, not random bits of whatever.

Ok sorry I know I said RANT over before, but... damnit.. whatever... argh.

 

[vacantlook]

Cavil definitely has become an Oedipus-type character. I think it gives a greater weight to his being the leader of the other side of the cylon civil war now. Before, it seemed that he was just the other side in order to be the other side, but now there's a full reason behind why he stood against Natalie, Sharon, and Leoben; and I like that. I like having a reason for "bad guys" doing what they do; I hate "bad guys" being bad just because the plot requires having a "bad guy".

Cavil has done what he's done because he's arrogant and angry. He hates that his creator favored a different model (Daniel) than himself. He killed the full-consciousness "Final Five" models, let them download into bodies that he rigged to not know that they were cylons, integrated them into the body-humanity so that they could experience life amongst humans in effort that they'd die and be resurrected and recognize his belief that being human was inferior to being a machine. He was present at significant moments of life of four of the "Five". He tortured Tigh, which put him in a position to fuck Ellen (hello Oedipus), he played adventure with Anders, and he had a "heart-to-heart" conversation about being a cylon with Tyrol. The only one of the "Five" he didn't have an experience with was Tori (maybe she'll be the one to kill him; that'd be nice, and I really dislike her for having killed Cally, but if she was the one to kill Cavil, I'd cheer).

Cavil knew the identities of the "Final Five", which puts the entire show into a context. If he was trying to put humanity into a position of uber-stress that his creators could, thinking they were human, experience what he considered all the worst qualities of being human, it makes sense that he would lead a strike against the human colonies and kill as many humans as possible. The "farms" that Starbuck encountered could have been a side-project created by Simon, Six, and possibly Doral and Leoben. Particularly, Six thought that a cylon becoming pregnant and giving birth required being in love with the person that they conceived the child, which, though Six felt bad that she had never been in love as pointed out directly to her, was proven true (apparently) by Athena and Helo having a child. I could see Simon as arguing for just forced breeding and being the one to create the "farms", especially as that's the episode that he was introduced in.

Cavil's position seems to be that cylons shouldn't breed but just be the more machine-like download. He hated D'Anna's efforts to learn the identity of the "Final Five" because he hated the "Five", whereas D'Anna, Six, Sharon, and Leoben respected them and were interested in their identities. Cavil knew that if they learned he was responsible for all the cylons not knowing who they "Final Five" were that they'd turn against him.

Cavil really has formed up as the final "bad guy" of the story with how much hates humanity and the "Final Five". Cavil hates autonomy, as displayed by his desire to lobotomize the Raiders and his hatred of Ellen, who said that the greatest gift the "Five" gave the others was choice.

I'm thoroughly intrigued with where this show is going in the final episodes.

 

[Alluveal]

I see what you're saying about McGuffin/Ellen/Anders now. I agree on that premise. It felt like a "vehicle" show--one that only exists to move story from point A to point B w/o much depth.

I also get what you're saying about B5/Valen/some of the realizations you come upon. I remember learning who Valen was. I remember learning what Delen's part in the Earth/Minbari war was. I remember learning what the Vorlons did to Lyta. Those things shocked the holy hell out of me. I was left with my mouth agape many times during B5 because of how well it was executed. It was so authentic to me.

Galactica is not taking that same route. There was still the shock involved, but all happened so friggin' fast that you had no time to allow yourself to build up to it or to appreciate it. You were instead left bewildered and hardly satisfied. At the end of WWE pt 2, you were left with this, "holy @#$. I feel like I need a cigarette now," type deal.

My guess is that they have to wrap things up very quickly and it's starting to show. If B5 had gone the route Galactica is going now, it would have gone like this:

Sinclair wakes from a deep sleep.
He tells Delen, Sheridan, Lenier, Marcus and Ivanova how he goes back in time to become Valen and he takes Babylon 4 with him. (Only, it's like 15 minutes straight of him talking.) Not near the same impact.

 

[vacantlook]

...A convenient way to vomit forth a lot of backstory that they pulled out of their asses.

And you know, that's what bothers me at the heart of all this. When you're watching Babylon 5 and it's revealed who Valen really was....

Well, there's usually a change in the story even when a lot of the story is planned out. If the story has been altered from the original conception, it's not the first. Babylon 5 didn't originally have Sinclair be Valen; jms only decided that at the earliest of late in season one. Both jms's online comments and the original outline for where the show was going prove that.

 

[darth_librarian]

Alluvueal' thats a great way to sum it up. The whole thing was massively contrived, and clumsily handled next to the plot revalations in B5 (which were always usually well set up anyway), hell even Farscape did a better job.

I really hate massive exposition, but this is what we got. Most of this stuff should have been done earlier this season (slowly as memories return to all the final five) , but I can't help thinking that Moore only came up with it during the writers strike. Considering how ace this season has been so far, (the mutiny stuff was gripping) its a real shame.

So a bit of a bummer, but its not over yet, and I will keep watching.

 

[channe]

I'm a little dissappointed, too -- mostly because, as a writer, I know how hard it is to figure things out as you go along, which is what they were doing. Some of it was general framework, laid out at the beginning of the show (i.e., Earth had Cylons on it all along), but a lot of it...

That said, we're still given a lot of mystery to play with. Daniel? Um. Anybody remember the line "Adama is a Cylon," said by Leoben in the first season? Zak Adama, hello? What about the fact that Baltar sees Six in his head, like the throwaway line about the Cylons seeing things in their head, as well. OMG! Baltar was totally a Cylon from the beginning! I'm willing to put up with a bit of backstory if the story keeps on being this good.

Plus, the God/Lucifer stuff with Ellen and Cavil? I don't care if it was contrived; it was GOOD.

 

[channe]

The one thing I don't like is this --

Galactica has been getting along pretty well without having One Major Villain. The major villain is humanity ourselves -- the many faults and failings of this flesh body and mind, and the many awesome things it can do as well (love, for example).

And now they want to tell me that it's all because of Brother Cavil.

Boo. They went from something that was new and never done on TV before to "OH HAI SPACE SHOW WITH EVIL SPACE VILLAIN."

 

[Recoil]

My guess is that they have to wrap things up very quickly and it's starting to show. If B5 had gone the route Galactica is going now, it would have gone like this

Ya know, that's not really an excuse. They knew Season 4 was going to be their last season since early Season 3. Hell, didn't RDM *ASK* that Season 4 be the last because they were "running out of material to tell a good story" or something to that affect? So they have all this notice and then decide the toss things together in a couple short episodes? That's pretty poor execution.

 

[Truth_Seeker]

I agree that the last episode was very rushed and there was too much information to comprehend for just 40 minutes.

This show definitely doesn't have the ellegant style of B5, where even the stand-alones are important to the main story arc (for example "Passing Through Gethsemane" was the first time when it was revealed that Valen was "a Minbari not born of Minbari").

I think that the writers should have mentioned some of the important info from this episode in the earlier Season 4 episodes, instead of boring the viewers with dumb stories like the one about the lawyer and his sorrow over his cat.

 

[Alluveal]

Ya know, that's not really an excuse. They knew Season 4 was going to be their last season since early Season 3. Hell, didn't RDM *ASK* that Season 4 be the last because they were "running out of material to tell a good story" or something to that affect? So they have all this notice and then decide the toss things together in a couple short episodes? That's pretty poor execution.

Can't say that I disagree with ya.

 

[GKarsEye]

I see what you're saying about McGuffin/Ellen/Anders now. I agree on that premise. It felt like a "vehicle" show--one that only exists to move story from point A to point B w/o much depth.

I also get what you're saying about B5/Valen/some of the realizations you come upon. I remember learning who Valen was. I remember learning what Delen's part in the Earth/Minbari war was. I remember learning what the Vorlons did to Lyta. Those things shocked the holy hell out of me. I was left with my mouth agape many times during B5 because of how well it was executed. It was so authentic to me.

Galactica is not taking that same route. There was still the shock involved, but all happened so friggin' fast that you had no time to allow yourself to build up to it or to appreciate it. You were instead left bewildered and hardly satisfied. At the end of WWE pt 2, you were left with this, "holy @#$. I feel like I need a cigarette now," type deal.

My guess is that they have to wrap things up very quickly and it's starting to show. If B5 had gone the route Galactica is going now, it would have gone like this:

Sinclair wakes from a deep sleep.
He tells Delen, Sheridan, Lenier, Marcus and Ivanova how he goes back in time to become Valen and he takes Babylon 4 with him. (Only, it's like 15 minutes straight of him talking.) Not near the same impact.

Well there's that, but if it were just a matter of pacing, it would be OK. I mean I'd bitch 'n' moan still- after all this is the internet- but pacing mistakes are more forgivable and common.

No the bigger difference for me is that w/ B5, when you learn those big reveals, you can go back and put them in the context of the earlies story and it fits naturally. I mean even if Sinclair = Valen was revealed as clumsily as you describe in your hypothetical, you could still go back and watch Delenn tell Sinclair "we were right about you" and see Sinclair's Battle of the Line flashbacks and all that stuff and it say "oh wow that explains everything, I totally get why all these people did all that stuff" and you get a story that works.

You know it's easy to write a story with big shocks and twists. It's hard to do it well. OMIGOD IT TURNS OUT HE WAS THE ONE ALL ALONG!! *yawn* The butler did it. Every season of 24 after the first, etc.

But yes, the pacing is also a problem. I'd understand if they were canceled on short notice and had to rush to the end, but I'm pretty sure- and correct me if I'm wrong- the show's producer's wanted to end the show after this season. So it's not like they have any excuse. I don't even think they can blame the writer's strike here.

Note: I wrote that last bit before reading Recoil's post that said this same thing. Including it here for added internet fanboy smugness value.


The mighty GKarsEye TV writing rule: have story arcs or don't have story arcs. Nothing wrong with episodic TV. But if you do have arcs, plan them out in advance.

 

[KoshFan]

Galactica has been getting along pretty well without having One Major Villain. The major villain is humanity ourselves -- the many faults and failings of this flesh body and mind, and the many awesome things it can do as well (love, for example).

And now they want to tell me that it's all because of Brother Cavil.

I'm not so sure. Cavil's the problem this time... but this is just one iteration among many. The inherent flaws in humanity and the tension between creator and created is still very much the root cause of everything.


Okay, the massive expository nature of this ep is a bit clunky... which is weird, since there were also some more subtle bits. The parallels between the chief's scan of the ship's bones and Cottle's scan of Sam's head, for instance. And think about it: Cavil wants a body made out of metal that can "feel" a supernova on many more levels. Galactica is exactly that -- made of metal and she scanned the same supernova Cavil was talking about. But Galactica is slowly falling apart and needs an organic, living glue to fix her up.

Heck, if Galactica gets fixed by becoming a hybrid of the living human's machinery and the machine Cylons' organic technology, she'll become the perfect metaphor for a reunion of the two sides.

The question is, will Lee build something truly new, or will the cycle repeat again? I'm thinking the latter -- I'm thinking Lee will unite everyone (he's already done that once, back in "Revelations") and lead everyone back to Kobol, where they can live... and then we'll get another flash-forward that shows another war and another scattering. "Deconstruction of Falling Stars," anyone?

 

[GKarsEye]

Okay, the massive expository nature of this ep is a bit clunky... which is weird, since there were also some more subtle bits. The parallels between the chief's scan of the ship's bones and Cottle's scan of Sam's head, for instance. And think about it: Cavil wants a body made out of metal that can "feel" a supernova on many more levels. Galactica is exactly that -- made of metal and she scanned the same supernova Cavil was talking about. But Galactica is slowly falling apart and needs an organic, living glue to fix her up.

On a number of occassions, I think on this board but certainly IRL, I've made a half-joking claim that the final cylon should be The Battlestar Galactica. I don't know how exactly, but I just figured that would be awesome. Man if that turns out to actually be close to some key resolution plot to this series, I will look uncannily brilliant to a few people of no consequence for a few brief moments, thus making the frustration of the last couple seasons of this show worth it.

"Deconstruction of Falling Stars," anyone?

Ah but the important point of DoFS is that, while there are repetitive cycles throughout the long view of history, humans and Minbari manage to learn from them and get beyond it in the long run. If the human/cylon cycle goes on, the opposite will happen.

I'm not sure why everyone here is just assuming this show will end with some hopeless failure for everybody. Yeah I know the show has a reputation for being "dark" (then again what doesn't these days), but the fact that the "solution" for these people is so obvious (humans cylons live together in peace), and there are major characters that believe this, it's pretty reasonable to assume it will end with something positive. I'm not saying it will for sure- if Ron Moore can throw darts to determine who's a cylon he can do the same for endings- but we shouldn't just take the horrible ending assumption for granted.

 

[KoshFan]

I meant "Deconstruction" in the sense of a long-distance flash-forward ep.

And I bet it'll be a bittersweet ending: Lee and Caprica Six and the The-Final-Whoever's-Left will preside over an era of peace... and then we'll find that the two sides turned on each other a thousand years later.

 

[Recoil]

So like, Deconstruction just after "The Great Burn" then? Meaning "our" heroes did everything they set out to do and made a big accomplishments, but later generations repeated similar mistakes. Just without the "but the original heroes set up the basis for what was to even overcome those future mistakes and their mission lived on in a million years" part.