Galactica Season 4 (Spoilers Within)

[Alluveal]

Cole on Charmed was supposed to be killed off, but wasn't. Julian McMahon stayed on for another 3 seasons before he landed his role on Nip/Tuck. Fans just dug him way too much.

Same with Sylar on Heroes.

But Callie? Can't say I'm seeing a similarity there. Don't get me wrong, I didn't loathe Callie or anything. I actually quite liked her, but not enough to say, "please keep her around more!"

I loved when she blew away Boomer. You FRACKIN' Cylon. Her Cylon H8 was unparalleled.

 

[Truth_Seeker]

It's a good thing that B5 never needed such a chart. Can you imagine it :

 

[GKarsEye]

I'm reading that linked recap and this jumps out at me:

# The Final Five all downloaded to their ship orbiting Earth, and headed back to the 12 Colonies.
# But they didn’t have any jump drives, so the trip took thousands of years – luckily, time slowed down for them.
# When then got there, the Colonials and Centurions were already at war. The war from 40 some-odd years ago.

Tigh is old. I mean, if Tigh was a human. And he is a high ranking officer in the human military. My point is that, 40 yrs before the "present", during the war between cylons and colonials, when Adama was young, where was Tigh? One would presume there was a soldier named Tigh serving, right? But now we're learning he just appears with the other cylon sknijobs.

OK I understand their identities were faked or something, but are we supposed to believe that an officer's identity was just invented? All of a sudden some colonel or lieutenant or whatever Tigh thought he was when he started being "human" shows up to serve on some ship, and no one notices he comes from nowhere?

 

[Sindatur]

Good point. 40 years ago, he probably was a pretty low rank, but, yea, that's an awful lax military for someone to just appear out of nowhere, and rise through the ranks. In order for this to have any kind of legitimacy, Cavil must've had someone on the inside (which brings us back to Starbuck's mother again, possibly?)

 

[Pobman]

Tigh is old. I mean, if Tigh was a human. And he is a high ranking officer in the human military. My point is that, 40 yrs before the "present", during the war between cylons and colonials, when Adama was young, where was Tigh? One would presume there was a soldier named Tigh serving, right? But now we're learning he just appears with the other cylon sknijobs.

I just came here to say something similar. And didn't Adama serve with Tigh when they were both much younger?

 

[GKarsEye]

I just came here to say something similar. And didn't Adama serve with Tigh when they were both much younger?

Don't remember- I'm hoping for VL or Alluveal, who have far stronger memories about this show to fill us in

Ok, back to the flowchart. This write-up is telling us that earth was populated by skin-jobs only, initially (and ever?). Then they created centurions? Huh? More advanced robots re-invented clunky toaster types? And humans happened to invent them also? Ok granted maybe they both just took some from Kobol. If we start with Kobol being the birthplace of humanity, then they invented centurions and skin-jobs. Is that right?

I think part of what's confusing me is the "final five" moniker. Are we saying that these five were but 5 individuals in a planet full of androids who "re-invented" both the ability to mass-produce androids and resurrection? If that's the case, then all that stuff must've been invented on Kobol as well. And also- what exactly is Cavil's goddamn problem? If The 5 were just brilliant androids in a planet full of their kind, then Cavil et al are not some new kind of creature lacking the qualities of machine-life he resents not having. He's just the equivalent of a test-tube baby.

 

[Sindatur]

I think part of what's confusing me is the "final five" moniker. Are we saying that these five were but 5 individuals in a planet full of androids who "re-invented" both the ability to mass-produce androids and resurrection? If that's the case, then all that stuff must've been invented on Kobol as well. And also- what exactly is Cavil's goddamn problem? If The 5 were just brilliant androids in a planet full of their kind, then Cavil et al are not some new kind of creature lacking the qualities of machine-life he resents not having. He's just the equivalent of a test-tube baby.

That's my current assumption. "Final Five" just means the Final Five unknown (or Final Five survivors of the Earth Colony), but, not the last ones that were created.

 

[Alluveal]

Adama tells Tigh. "You can't be a cylon. I knew you during the first war. You had HAIR. Cylons don't age."
Tigh then said something to the likes of "I do age and I'm a different kind of cylon."

It was never clear when Tigh was placed among the humans. If you guess that he's about 60 now, he would have been 20 when the first cylon war among the 12 colonies began.

Not hard to imagine that he entered into the military during the war or toward the end. Not sure. I'm not 100% on my Adama/Tigh history. I know that in season 2 when Adama had been shot by Boomer, Tigh was remembering their history and spoke of it. That would be the first place to look.

I don't see it as a big hole. Tigh could have entered in the military at age 18 for all we know, or while in his 20's. And there he met Bill Adama. He ages. That much has been discerned. These models have "different rules." Ellen aged as well.

Look at Boomer. They gave her fake memories as a child and probably placed her into the population to enlist in the military. Got her military training, etc. I think the same could be said for Tigh.

From what I gathered, the 5 were "boxed" in a sense, then resurrected into new bodies and placed among the humans. I imagine when they were resurrected, they were given newer/younger bodies. Tigh was the first to be placed, according to last episode.

I imagine the others were going to be placed with something specific in mind to "teach them a lesson about being human beings" (Cavil hinted at this.) But, it seemed that Cavil might have seen the potential in placing a few in positions that may lead them to power or place them near people in positions of power: Tyrol being the chief, Tori being a political aid. Who knows. Maybe it will be revealed in "the Plan."

 

[Alluveal]

P.S. It could also be that some of these things will be answered during one of the movies that will follow the end of the series. If I remember correctly, there are (potentially) 3 coming. One will deal with events from the cylon perspective. Not sure about the other two (or if the other two have actually been given the go-ahead.)

 

[Recoil]

Tigh is old. I mean, if Tigh was a human. And he is a high ranking officer in the human military. My point is that, 40 yrs before the "present", during the war between cylons and colonials, when Adama was young, where was Tigh? One would presume there was a soldier named Tigh serving, right? But now we're learning he just appears with the other cylon sknijobs.

OK I understand their identities were faked or something, but are we supposed to believe that an officer's identity was just invented? All of a sudden some colonel or lieutenant or whatever Tigh thought he was when he started being "human" shows up to serve on some ship, and no one notices he comes from nowhere?

I felt the same way. Someone from the Fark comments posted a true story about a relative of his during WWII, so apparently its not as impossible as you might think (granted, BSG is supposed to be more technology modern than WWII era. Here is the excerpt:

They existed. It's been a while since I've seen them, but if I recall correctly Tigh and Adama did NOT fight/serve together in the first Cylon war. They met after the war and became fast friends swapping war stories, they were both out of the service then. Adama re-enlisted and brought Tigh "back". Of course Tigh was never actually in the military for the first Cylon war, those memories were implanted. As for service records? Who knows? During an actual war records can become iffy.

Before WWII an ancestral relative of mine, I believe it was grandfathers uncle or something, was an illegal immigrant. He moved in from Amsterdam (that part of the family is actually German). He joined with the US military and fought against Nazi Germany during WWII. When the war was over and he was being discharged, the discharging officer asked where he was born. He said Amsterdam. He said "Damn, you weren't even supposed to be fighting with us." He gave him discharge papers saying he was born in Amsterdam Texas. Once he had that papers, though it was back doored, he had paperwork saying he was a legal citizen.

Okay, I know where talking about a Sci-Fi universe here, and a society that was a lot further advanced than our own, but I figured I would give an example of how something like that can work.

 

[Recoil]

Also, another interesting theory I read in the comments:

Hold on a second...

We already know a Daniel:

http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Daniel_Novacek

And this Daniel (aka "Bulldog") was "part of a covert mission from the admiralty of the Colonial Fleet as pilot of a special fighter known as a Stealthstar. The mission was to fly over the Armistice Line for reconnaissance of Cylon activity.

Upon crossing the Line, Bulldog was soon interdicted by an unknown contact. Under fire, his fighter is severely damaged and was spinning out of control.

With two more unknown craft bearing down on him, Commander Adama ordered Novacek's fighter destroyed so as to eliminate any evidence of their incursion into Cylon space. Instead of being killed, however, Novacek ejected a split second before the incoming missile detonated."


What if Cavil put this Daniel into the Fleet in order to spark off another war? Of course, the orders to infiltrate Cylon space came from the Admiralty...hrm.

If the above is true, then its possible that Razor had far more important seeds planted than previously thought..
Make sure to check the link in the above quote. Its at least a good possibility.

 

[GKarsEye]

Problem with that theory is that Ellen and Cavil were pretty emphatic about how permanent Daniel's "boxing" was, that he couldn't be brought back like Deanna.

 

[Sindatur]

Also, another interesting theory I read in the comments:



If the above is true, then its possible that Razor had far more important seeds planted than previously thought..
Make sure to check the link in the above quote. Its at least a good possibility.

Interesting possibility, I never recalled Bulldog was named Daniel. I suppose it's possible Ellen only thinks Daniel was beyond all hope due to Cavil's machinations. I definitely believe Razor had far more in it then we realize, and I have always felt that (prior to the Ellen reveal, Kendra was a popular choice for Final Fifth)

It would make a kind of sense how Bulldog was released after so much time.

 

[vacantlook]

That's my current assumption. "Final Five" just means the Final Five unknown (or Final Five survivors of the Earth Colony), but, not the last ones that were created.

The whole "Final Five" moniker is one given to them by the other human-style cylon models that we've seen. Leoben, D'Anna, Doral, Simon, Six, and Sharon knew there were 12 models but knew that five were missing from amongst their company, and thus started referring to the as the "Final Five". I guess the Five decided to keep themselves hidden from the rest of the cylons with the exception of John Cavil, who they created first. Why they would do that, I have no idea.

To go meta on it, the term "Final Five" probably was developed with excessive lack of care to the story itself and more from a marketing perspective to advertise the show with, as "Final Five [to be revealed]" sounds more like it's for us in the audience than it truly is for the characters in the show.

 

[KoshFan]

I have a theory about the "human" lives of the Final Five in the colonies. I suspect that the human lives and memories Cavil built for them were, in fact, meant to hurt/humiliate them further still. They were all scientists on Earth, right? Perhaps Sam always had disdain for the jock types -- so Cavil made him a jock. Galen's work was supposed to be "brilliant," so Cavil makes him a grunt mechanic. Ellen was probably utterly faithful to Tigh, so Cavil made her sleep around. And so on. (This would account for why Ellen and Tigh were married, too -- Cavil made sure it happened that way so they could hurt each other.)

I have a suspicion that Tigh was instrumental in picking Galen as Galactica's chief, though -- some scrap of memory, perhaps.

 

[Recoil]

That all makes good sense.

 

[GKarsEye]

I have a theory about the "human" lives of the Final Five in the colonies. I suspect that the human lives and memories Cavil built for them were, in fact, meant to hurt/humiliate them further still. They were all scientists on Earth, right? Perhaps Sam always had disdain for the jock types -- so Cavil made him a jock. Galen's work was supposed to be "brilliant," so Cavil makes him a grunt mechanic. Ellen was probably utterly faithful to Tigh, so Cavil made her sleep around. And so on. (This would account for why Ellen and Tigh were married, too -- Cavil made sure it happened that way so they could hurt each other.)

I have a suspicion that Tigh was instrumental in picking Galen as Galactica's chief, though -- some scrap of memory, perhaps.

You're smart.

 

[Sindatur]

I have a theory about the "human" lives of the Final Five in the colonies. I suspect that the human lives and memories Cavil built for them were, in fact, meant to hurt/humiliate them further still. They were all scientists on Earth, right? Perhaps Sam always had disdain for the jock types -- so Cavil made him a jock. Galen's work was supposed to be "brilliant," so Cavil makes him a grunt mechanic. Ellen was probably utterly faithful to Tigh, so Cavil made her sleep around. And so on. (This would account for why Ellen and Tigh were married, too -- Cavil made sure it happened that way so they could hurt each other.)

I have a suspicion that Tigh was instrumental in picking Galen as Galactica's chief, though -- some scrap of memory, perhaps.

Nice, I hadn't examined it that deeply.

 

[KoshFan]

It'll probably be fanwank... but there it is.

I'm beginning to think that BSG isn't a show I'm going to watch in big arcs, like I do with B5 or Buffy. Individual episodes, sure, but not the whole thing at once. The arc flaws would get more noticible that way.

I have to say, though, that "Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down" is going to be very different on a rewatch, especially the scene with a drunken Ellen screaming, "Bill Adama doesn't know where Earth is!" You're right, my dear, he didn't -- but you did, deep down.

Oh, and just as an aside -- Sindatur, is your sig really relevant any more?

 

[Sindatur]

Oh, and just as an aside -- Sindatur, is your sig really relevant any more?

No, it's not, just haven't gotten around to dealing with it. Actually, it wasn't really accurate by the time he left office either, and the numbers were even lower.