Galactica Season 4 (Spoilers Within)

[Galahad]

Everything else? I can't just chuck it up to "God." And some of you guys are a lot smarter than this. Why are you narrowing it all down to this one thing?

Because I think for some, religion as a credible force is a bugbear and an affront... and with respect, I disagree with the protestations that world view doesn't enter into it. It does. If you don't perceive God as a reality, then anything that suggests something to the contrary sticks in the craw (particularly if the observer has had a strong religious upbringing that they've understandably kicked back against). It absolutely works the other way too... however, theists have an advantage because usually sci-fi doesn't denounce belief, it just denies it an overly active role and gives uses it as a passive culutral thing.

Chilli had it bang on when saying there isn't evidence for or against. If you are going to accept there's a God, the critical evidence you get isn't found in a laboratory or a pile of artifacts, it's interactive. You believe it because you communicate with what you call God. To someone who doesn't accept the notion... that probably sets a reasonable majority of believing people out as psychotics because to them, if it's not there... then the people they are looking at are talking to themselves.

So be it, call me insane if you will. I can understand why you might hold that position... but I don't judge you for it.


When it comes down to scientific fact, in my opinion, the "hard" evidence is merely circumstantial for both camps.

Gosh that wasn't supposed to be an apologist's repost.

 

[Sindatur]

VL, Absence of proof of other species in BSG isn't proof of absence. I look at Six and Baltar's parting conversation, where they say "God" doesn't like to be called God. This could indeed be taken as "God" isn't "God" afterall, but, merely a more advanced being who is a Guardian, as the Ship of Lights Aliens were in TOS BSG.

I still think it can go either way, and it was in S1 (IE: In the first 13 episodes of the series) that Head Six told us she was a representative of God's plan. So, wether "God" be THE God or merely a Superiorly advanced being, he/she/it has always been shown as guiding the events and people

 

[Truth_Seeker]

I don't think that's what the entire show is about, though. God didn't do any of this. Mankind did. Cylons did. The only thing that "God" had a part in (if you want to narrow yourself to that term, ok,) is give Baltar and resurrected "6" an angel on their shoulder (again, if you want to limit it to that concept,) and gave Starbuck the means to find Earth.

Acoording to the finale God created also:

1. The "angel" Kera (and made her disappear at the end).

2. Her new Viper, which jumped to Earth and back without a jump drive.

3. The melody, written by both Hera and Starbuck's Father and the Final Five's ability to hear it.

4. The opera house vision.

This was simply RDM'S easiest way out of his own mess.

 

[Recoil]

Acoording to the finale God created also:

1. The "angel" Kera (and made her disappear at the end).

Probably. Although its not stated Kara is an Angel at all. In fact, the only two after the finale that present themselves as Angels are "Head Six and Head Baltar." Kara was human. She is likened more to "Gandalf the White" being "brought back to finish her task". While God may have had a hand in that....Kara was still human and it was her that figured out what the tune meant.

2. Her new Viper, which jumped to Earth and back without a jump drive.

Probably as well. That's what is hinted at anyway. Gandalf came back on his horse.

3. The melody, written by both Hera and Starbuck's Father and the Final Five's ability to hear it.

Says who? Hera is the one who somehow understood what it meant. God didn't necessarily come up with the tune or its meaning. Saying that God had a hand in this is a stretch. Either way, a reincarnated HUMAN figured this out, and it was a HUMAN child that was picking up on it.

4. The opera house vision.

Once again, says who? Prehaps this was just a preminition. Either way, I think the Opera House thing was really downplayed.

It really surprises me how angry people get whent he Concept of God is used in Science Fiction. Sometimes its OK. Other times it invokes very angry and emotional reactions. And I'll be damned if I can tell the difference between its applications that result in such varying responses.

Still, I'll finish my comments on this "God" subject by saying two things.

1) People are reacting believing that "God" was a part of EVERYTHING in the Finale. This simply is not true at all. I consider this an over-reaction.

2) On the subject of God in the finale being discussed on this board, I have only this to say:

 

[Recoil]

Ok.....so moving past this whole God thing, I want to post about my final thoughts / analysis on the finale, now that I have had a bit to digest the very ending.

This is mainly dealing with the final revelation of the finale in that the BSG folks were actually alive some 150,000 years in our past. I've got mixed emotions about this, and the fact that Hera was revealed to be our "Mitochondrial Eve." By mixed emotions I dont mean I like or dislike it in a particular way. Frankly I kind of liked the revelation and thought it was a neat way to wrap things up. However, I think there are TWO ways or time periods they could have ended the series with the BSG humans ending up. Both have merits, and I'm not sure which of the two I would have liked better or which would have worked better, so I am curious to see what the rest of you think.

(I realize its a bit much to have me say how I would rather have had the show end, as thats not the point, but I am curios to discuss it anyway)


Ending #1: (how the show did end)

* We find out the surviving humans from the colonies were alive 150,000 years in our past.
* Hera is revealed to be our "Mitochondrial Eve"

Some people think this was a happy ending. I'm not convinced that is a phrase I'd use to describe it. It is still a bit dark in some ways.

Points on this ending

* This ending means that the civilization of the surviving colonists completely dies out
* All technology, culture, knowledge, and everything that the colonists brought with them to Earth is lost and forgotten forever. Their legacy and their civilization DID come to an end (so this was a show about the end of a civilization afterall)
* While it was hinted at by Lee Adama that the colonists would bring the "best of themselves" to this new world, the reality as we know it today is that only Hera contributed. Even Baltar at the end, who stated his knowledge of farming, didn't survive.

Reasons for these conclusions

One reason for this conclusion is that the EARLIEST evidence of farming and agriculture is 10,000 years ago. If Baltar was successful is having kids, or teaching the natives about farming, it would have caught on considerably earlier. So given that is not how our timeline worked out, its likely to think that Baltar's and the Colonists knowledge died out with their generation, or at some point afterards

Another reason is the sheer timeframes at play. Ancient Egypt was some 15,000 years ago. Think about how far the human race has come knowldge wise in that 15,000 years. Now multiply that by a factor of 10. If the colonists had an impact on the natives at the time, or were able to continue to reproduce and grow the human race and pass their knowledge, things would have evolved a LOT quicker. Heck 8-9 civilizations could have risen to our level of technology and fallen in 150,000 years. No evidence of this exists. Not to say its not out there and hasn't been found yet, but given what we know its pretty clear that we don't have any modern day ties to anything that old...except our DNA.

So the ONE AND ONLY thing the surviving colonists brought to Earth and helped was Hera, and how she ended up "Seeding" our DNA. She is the one who could be considered the "mother of modern man" and perhaps she with some of the native humans combined to have the human race evolve into modern homo sapiens. Without their arrival we may not have evolved the same way, or much at all. That, at least, seems to be what the story implies and its importance.

Things that work with this ending:

1) It really hammers home how important Hera really was. She WAS the future of the human race. Without her life on Earth would not have developed as it did

2) It also reinforces the Hybrids prophecy about Kara being the "harbenger of doom and leading the humans to their final end" (paraphrased). Kara DID lead those humans to their final end. That civilization died on Earth some 150,000 years ago. They ended, but through Hera, something new was able to grow and develop on its own.

3) Having it be such a drastic restart of life and civilization, it does stand the best chance of breaking the cycle of viloence (as hinted at by Head Six and Head Baltar in present day Earth.

So this is how the show ended, and I did like it and thought it was a neat way to end things, the part with Hera being the neat touch and revelation.

However, before the finale I was hoping for them landing in a different time period, and here is how that might have worked out.

Ending #2: BSG Colonists arrive some 15,000 years ago

By having them land and settle in more recent history, it would seem to hold truer to some of the themes of the original series (which this series did hold very close to).

* The colonists, with modern humans already on Earth, could have taught us agriculture, as the timeframes would have been right to do this. Baltar could have been the one who brought agriculture to Earth's human population
* The colonists could have also helped with development of early civilization
* Been the ones who inspired the Great Pyramids
* Been the ones who inspired Mayan and Mormon legends about humans coming from Space and settling on Earth (which is the concept the original series was based on)
* Could have been the ones who inspired Greek Mythology and been the reasons why some of the ancient Gods have the names they do.

Now the one thing this wouldn't do, is allow for Hera to be our Mitochondrial Eve. Basically, this is saying that human life already evolved on Earth on its own, and the BSG colonoists just help bring civilization here, based on theirs. It would help signfy that their civilization didn't die out, but it lives on through us. This obviously makes Hera less important, and also doesn't satisfy Starbuck's prophecy about leading them to their end, because one could argue that if they pass on so much of theirselves into ancient Earth, that they lived on.

It would fit better with Lee Adama's comments in the finale about giving the best of themselves to the humans of earth.

So this wouls have been another way to end the series, and the one I was sort of hoping for. I'll admit I do like it a bit better, but it doesn't FIT as well with the story in some ways as the one they chose did.

Anyone else have any thoughts along those lines or have you drawn similar conclusions?

 

[Alluveal]

Acoording to the finale God created also:

1. The "angel" Kera (and made her disappear at the end).

2. Her new Viper, which jumped to Earth and back without a jump drive.

3. The melody, written by both Hera and Starbuck's Father and the Final Five's ability to hear it.

4. The opera house vision.

This was simply RDM'S easiest way out of his own mess.

Kara died. The "angel" or "being" was in Kara's image with her memories. That's just my take on it. And her viper coming back. Yes, those are all the most blatant form of "hi, some other power is out here, look at this." I agree. But, (like my own view of a higher power, it's not limited or strictly labeled as "God.") I don't know how else to put it. Furthermore, it's been (as someone else related) eluded to from the start. Head-Six was always talking about God. Leoben was always talking about God. I don't see it as such a huge surprise here.

I look at this ending as something that Star Wars was too chickenshit to do. We're shown the force. It's mystical. It's something of nature. Nope, wait, we don't like that. It's just midichlorians / sentient beings. Sorry, no real "magic here!" All science. That was one of Star Wars biggest mistakes imho--taking the mystical element away from the entire series and wrapping it up in a convenient little scientific box.

The Opera House vision. The idea of the "collective" people is not brand-spankin' new here. Plato's world of forms. Jung spoke of it. Why are we so startled by rattlesnakes? Our ancestral memories, that shared collective unconscious (part of what Jung called "The Shadow") is present within us all. I daresay, Jung would tell you, "no, it wasn't God, it was the fact that these people had the mental means to tap into that collective unconscious. Everyone has the ability, but few actually will use it." Is that spiritual? Perhaps. It could also be something scientific in a sense: memory in our DNA.

Side note on Jung: B5 IS Jungian theory. From "The Shadows" (a term he used to refer to a person's unconscious/chaotic/animalistic "dark-side") to the Ego (like the Vorlons: rational and logical,) it's Jungian perfection. If anyone ever has trouble understanding Jung's concept, they only need to watch Babylon 5. It's an absolute perfect model. It's closer to Campbell's monomyth than Star Wars (which was supposedly created based on Cambpell's Monomyth.) One of my psychology teachers talked about Babylon 5 in this way. It's one of the reasons I became interested in it at all. Anyway, just a little Jungian side-talk for ya. =D Now, back on track!

Epic tales are not always about things being explained away by "God" or "science." It's about the character journey itself--the archetypal process.

I don't think Moore took the easy road out. I don't. Easy would have been pussing out like Star Wars and giving us a bunch of technological Matrix: Revolution-style mumbo jumbo. I'm not by any means calling him a genius, but I can see why he chose this route. Would it have been the route I would have personally take (were I the producer/creator?) No. But, it's his story to tell and I'm ok with how it ended here.

I can understand why people think it's an easy way out. I guess I just don't see it that way.

 

[Truth_Seeker]

Recoil and Sindatur,

I simply can't understand how can you defend an ending that gave you no reasonable answers? Didn't you feel somehow betrayed?

And how would you react if JMS explained everything in B5 with Droshalla or the Centauri Great Maker?

Regards!

 

[Alluveal]

Yeah, Recoil, the 150,000 year thing is really really bothering me, for the reasons you stated. I keep thinking, "did they just put in one too many 0's there?"

But, if the colonial/human DNA and such were to alter New Earth's present population, then that would take time? How long? Not sure. It could be that the colonials and and humans simply lent their DNA to the humanoids of New Earth and that allowed them a boost in evolution, so to say.

The other stuff (like language/laws, etc,) who knows. It could have been passed down, then somewhere along the way it was lost temporarily and rediscovered. Not sure. It's a big hole, isn't it.

 

[Alluveal]

Recoil and Sindatur,

I simply can't understand how can you defend an ending that gave you no reasonable answers? Didn't you feel somehow betrayed?

And how would you react if JMS explained everything in B5 with Droshalla or the Centauri Great Maker?

Regards!

Dude. We get it. You hate it. People aren't gonna throw you a fish every time you blow the horn here.

Your comparison, imho, just doesn't work with BSG. You're not reading anything that's being presented to you in any kind of open way. So, yeah. I don't think peeps want to continue talking to a wall here.

 

[Recoil]

Recoil and Sindatur,

I simply can't understand how can you defend an ending that gave you no reasonable answers? Didn't you feel somehow betrayed?

And how would you react if JMS explained everything in B5 with Droshalla or the Centauri Great Maker?

Regards!

Again. Dead Horse.

There were plenty of reasonable answers. Not every single thing was answered, but there were plenty of them. And sorry, but saying that part of things were a "Gods Will" *IS* an answer. Obviously not one you like. But its an answer. Period. But once again, I feel that a SMALL part of the finale was attributed to that. A majority of the answers and revelations were very human. And no, I'm not going to debate this with you because its a waste of my time. I'm satisfied. I don't care that you are not.

Also, this isn't JMS and B5, this is RDM and BSG. They are DIFFERENT SHOWS. RDM was clear about not having a plan since day one. We all knew it. We all criticized it. But that was his choice and how he ran his show. You cant compare them. But I think he did a decent job of bringing things together even though they weren't planned out. So no, I don't feel betrayed. Its a fucking TV show dude. Feeling betrayed by a TV show? Really?

 

[Truth_Seeker]

Dude. We get it. You hate it. People aren't gonna throw you a fish every time you blow the horn here.

Your comparison, imho, just doesn't work with BSG. You're not reading anything that's being presented to you in any kind of open way. So, yeah. I don't think peeps want to continue talking to a wall here.

Whatever you say, "dude"!

 

[Alluveal]

Right on, coz.

 

[Recoil]

So no thoughts on my post about the final ending and the Hera stuff then? Must have been lost with all the God ranting.

 

[Sindatur]

Recoil and Sindatur,

I simply can't understand how can you defend an ending that gave you no reasonable answers? Didn't you feel somehow betrayed?

And how would you react if JMS explained everything in B5 with Droshalla or the Centauri Great Maker?

Regards!

What don't you feel had reasonable answers?

Of course B5 couldn't end like that, B5 deliberately avoided "God" and showed us Higher evolved species manipulating us, the exact opposite of what BSG did. BSG always showed God's hand in it, and again, a bone was thrown by Six and Baltar Angels in their final comments, when they told us "God" didn't like being called God. Why wouldn't "God" like to be called God? Perhaps because he/she/it really wasn't a God afterall.

 

[Sindatur]

So no thoughts on my post about the final ending and the Hera stuff then? Must have been lost with all the God ranting.

I too was expecting them to be resonsible for Greek and Egyptian cultures, but, like you agree it didn't fit as well.

I do wonder what VL and TruthSeeker, and any others who feel "betrayed" or unsatisfied by the finale were expecting, or what they would've done differently

 

[Chilli]

The thing with them having created Greek and Egyptian cultures is a nice idea. Sadly, they messed that one up with the time frame they gave. They arrived on Earth 150 000 years ago, those cultures only came about roughly 5000 years ago.

 

[Alluveal]

What don't you feel had reasonable answers?

Of course B5 couldn't end like that, B5 deliberately avoided "God" and showed us Higher evolved species manipulating us, the exact opposite of what BSG did. BSG always showed God's hand in it, and again, a bone was thrown by Six and Baltar Angels in their final comments, when they told us "God" didn't like being called God. Why wouldn't "God" like to be called God? Perhaps because he/she/it really wasn't a God afterall.

Or, mankind was just being manipulated by the dang Vorlons again. (sigh) They were known to send an angel or two to the right people.

 

[crazyhorse]

Well I've lost interest in BSG to the extent that I'm not bothered if I miss episodes anymore and read this thread to get the story and miss out the annoying bits,although I do enjoy seeing people complain about those annoying bits :devil:

Posting mainly because I thought I'd stick my oar in on the whole God thing :angel:

I have to say I don't understand where the "God has no part in Sci-fi" comes from.There are loads of Sci-fi books and series that have used religion as a major part of their storytelling.One of the most obvious that springs to mind is Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land although the likes of the Dune series had massive amounts of religion throughout them.The original BSG had mention of Gods in it,B5 had advanced races maskerading as Gods and even had a character that could be considered a God in Lorien who claimed to be the first being,was apparently immortal and resurected Sheridan.He also managed to conveniently finish the Shadow War which lets face it the Alliance had no chance of doing in any kind of conventional way.

All good stuff in my opinion.

I do think that people too often equate the term "God" with that bloke Jehova and his teachings which unless it is specificly stated in a Sci-fi book/series/film to be such is jumping the gun big time I think.Just because certain religions claim there is only one God (theirs) doesn't mean that any story having a God in it has to be the one of said religions.

So it doesn't bother me having Gods or Godlike characters in Sci-fi as long as they are done well.This also gives us the flip side of having Devils,Demons ect to play about with (which don't get objected to at all really even though they are just the flip side of the whole God thing).I loved the Dr.Who episode The Satan Pit and don't remember any religious arguments about that.

 

[darth_librarian]

Well said CH. The concept of a divine entity was well established in BSG old and new, and has a strong sci-fi heritage.

 

[Sindatur]

Well I've lost interest in BSG to the extent that I'm not bothered if I miss episodes anymore and read this thread to get the story and miss out the annoying bits,although I do enjoy seeing people complain about those annoying bits :devil:

Posting mainly because I thought I'd stick my oar in on the whole God thing :angel:

I have to say I don't understand where the "God has no part in Sci-fi" comes from.There are loads of Sci-fi books and series that have used religion as a major part of their storytelling.One of the most obvious that springs to mind is Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land although the likes of the Dune series had massive amounts of religion throughout them.The original BSG had mention of Gods in it,B5 had advanced races maskerading as Gods and even had a character that could be considered a God in Lorien who claimed to be the first being,was apparently immortal and resurected Sheridan.He also managed to conveniently finish the Shadow War which lets face it the Alliance had no chance of doing in any kind of conventional way.

All good stuff in my opinion.

I do think that people too often equate the term "God" with that bloke Jehova and his teachings which unless it is specificly stated in a Sci-fi book/series/film to be such is jumping the gun big time I think.Just because certain religions claim there is only one God (theirs) doesn't mean that any story having a God in it has to be the one of said religions.

So it doesn't bother me having Gods or Godlike characters in Sci-fi as long as they are done well.This also gives us the flip side of having Devils,Demons ect to play about with (which don't get objected to at all really even though they are just the flip side of the whole God thing).I loved the Dr.Who episode The Satan Pit and don't remember any religious arguments about that.

It seems their objections aren't that characters believe in God(s), but, rather that the series ended with an absolute confirmation of a God, and didn't explain it away it as advanced species (although the final line does leave some room to theorize God may not have been a God afterall)