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Gunnery Pod (spoilers)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rhea:
ROTFLMAO!

Question: Surely she can't have been in free fall. All the jerking and Ranger Fu stuff would have had her drifting all over the place. Isn't she in a straight VR environment? anybody?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

She had to be in a gravity field or similar. If the jerking and Ranger Fu was going to send her all over the place, just think about what happens when the ship manoeuvres, it would send her to her death. She is basically weigthless, which gives the same effect as a freefall. Freefall is simply a tool used by NASA to simulate zero-gravity. Now imagine the gravity field is acting on her from all directions, then she wouldn't feel the ship manoeuvring very much at all (if at all). It is similar to those so called 'inertial dampeners' used by trek This field would therefore keep her in the one spot.

Hope I was specific enough.

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"To live is to risk"
Lenonn - ItB

[This message has been edited by Raptor (edited January 21, 2002).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by orac:
How long does the sequence last for? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just re-ran the scene and timed it for you. According to my rough estimates ... the whole battle between the Liandra and the mines lasted about 50 seconds. Then, about the last 8-10 of those seconds were of her "Xena" battle cry. It was definitely the most intense part of the scene and I actually never noticed it until I read about it here.

Maybe you just have to see it for yourself to judge if it was "over the top" but I thought it was paced quite well.
smile.gif


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Monica Hübinette | Abyss : B5 <- New & Improved!
And the ship looking for them, would find it, find them, find us, find you. A brilliant cascade of cause and effect. Isn't the universe an amazing place? I wouldn't live anywhere else. --G'Kar in B5LR
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lyta:
We do not know what the original purpose of this ship was or what the Minbari were thinking when they built it. It could have been an experimental ship and not really intended for long battles for all we know. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ooh, I love it when my thoughts are not too far off from the Great Maker. *evilgrin*

Read what I relayed a post from JMS on the subject of the Liandra here.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>It is also, by design, a small, fast (crew of maybe 20) patrol ship designed to
go on the edge, it's not meant to go out there and pulverize fleets. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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Monica Hübinette | Abyss : B5 <- New & Improved!
And the ship looking for them, would find it, find them, find us, find you. A brilliant cascade of cause and effect. Isn't the universe an amazing place? I wouldn't live anywhere else. --G'Kar in B5LR
 
SPOILERS (in deference to Anthony):


I think the gunnery pod is a great idea; Sarah suspended in a 360, 3D enviroment is a great set of visuals and a great concept. The targeting with the retinal scan worked fine. However.....

My willing suspension of disbelief was strained to the breaking point with the kicking and punching. It just seems so inefficient. A series might make it clear that this is a rare (perhaps unique) system that is recongnized as less efficient, but "it's all the Liandra's got". I could've even bought into the kicking and punching if the kicks and punches made "contact" with the target. Sarah locks on a target and as she delivers the punch the image zooms towards her fist so that when the weapons fire hits it in space, her first hits it's image in the pod.

Or give her some brass knuckle type things, some sort of button to push, something. More detail on how specific weapons are selected, how much power to put into them, how fine the targeting aspect is (can you "target thier engines"?) etc might help. At this point, though I'd grade TLADIS a solid B, the gunnery pod is the weakest part of the movie, in execution - not concept.


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-Devin Barber
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lyta:
Quoted from JMSIt is also, by design, a small, fast (crew of maybe 20) patrol ship designed to go on the edge, it's not meant to go out there and pulverize fleets. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The problem with that is that a ship going "on the edge" is likely to run into surprises, in the environment described so far. The gunnery pod, however, makes the ship extremely vulnerable to surprises. The Weapons Officer has to jump into the pod, bring up the scanning environment, and even then can only see in one direction from the ship at one time. Again, compare with the Narn ship going to Z'Ha'Dum. Not going into major battles is no excuse for inefficiency.

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If I tell you my name is Lorien, what good is that?

(Whatever happened to Mr. Garibaldi?)
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kribu:
All I can say is that it looked cool in the trailers and Sarah's trading card clip.
cool.gif


But I agree that it also sounds physically too demanding, if the battle is prolonged.

The kicking and punching looks great, but there should be some physically easier way to do this. I can buy the theory of Minbari liking such physical combat style, but even the Minbari should realise that on a ship with just one weapons specialist, they can't rely on that person never tiring.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Good point about the gunnery person tiring Kribu. But maybe they have another person that can go in and spell that main shooter if needed, or perhaps they have a manual back-up system or something that can run without a person in the pod.



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Dulann: You don't solve your problems by hitting them.
David Martel: Yeah, well, it made me feel better.
 
Note: I have only skimmed this thread, not read it thoroughly, so apologies for any errors.

It seems that the general consensus is that the concept of this weapons thing was fine, but that it just looked stupid because punching and kicking. I agree. So, how can we keep the gunnery pod, but make it look better?

Someone has mentioned that Sarah has to kick and punch in order to control the strength of the shots. Assuming this is so, I think it is possible to still have that control without the cheesy space fighting. When Sarah has to shoot something, she can point at it, or use subtle hand gestures. The strength of the shot can be portrayed on film by the sharpness of her movements and the intensity of her facial expressions. Something like a warning shot would see Sarah camly placing her hand up towards the target. A shot designed to annihilate an enemy would see her body tense up and her face look more determined. This would also match up with how people react in real life who aren't in VR gunner pods.

Of course, this may require more careful scrutiny of Ms Miriam Sirois' face and body while watching the show, but I wouldn't have a problem with that.
wink.gif


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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
 
*oops*

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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK

[This message has been edited by Recoil (edited January 21, 2002).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GKarsEye:
Note: I have only skimmed this thread, not read it thoroughly, so apologies for any errors.

It seems that the general consensus is that the concept of this weapons thing was fine, but that it just looked stupid because punching and kicking. I agree. So, how can we keep the gunnery pod, but make it look better?

Someone has mentioned that Sarah has to kick and punch in order to control the strength of the shots. Assuming this is so, I think it is possible to still have that control without the cheesy space fighting. When Sarah has to shoot something, she can point at it, or use subtle hand gestures. The strength of the shot can be portrayed on film by the sharpness of her movements and the intensity of her facial expressions. Something like a warning shot would see Sarah camly placing her hand up towards the target. A shot designed to annihilate an enemy would see her body tense up and her face look more determined. This would also match up with how people react in real life who aren't in VR gunner pods.

Of course, this may require more careful scrutiny of Ms Miriam Sirois' face and body while watching the show, but I wouldn't have a problem with that.
wink.gif


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is scary, but I must confess it immediately: I agree with GkarsEye.


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"The Bible is a book: it is a good book, but is is not the only book" - Inherit the Wind

"I do not believe that the same God who
has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."—Galileo

hypatia@b5fan.b5lr.com
 
Zaptan, I think you hit the nail on the head. I had just sat down and read all the entries and I would have to agree with you. It makes sense. I agree that there can be some fine turning, but overall the idea is sound. I really enjoyed it. I watched it with 2 other people and they felt it was cool, but had reservations about it. Anyways, I think your post puts the pod in perceptive.

Cerberus

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I already made a long post dealing with this subject in the "One thing that disgusted me. . ." thread, so I won't rehash it here. However, I do find myself having to play devil's advocate here and say that I do NOT think it is an efficient design. I think that it is a somewhat backward design. That does not mean that I do not like it, however, and that does not mean that I find it inconsistent with the B5 universe.

I put my point of view up in my first post on the '. . . disgusted me. . .' thread. Go there if you want to argue about my PoV.

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"In the Beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move."
-Douglas Adams 'The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy'
 
But this gunnery pod is most likely how other Minbari ships operate.

Other than an angelfish, the Sharlin could be said to resemble a being. It would be far easier for someone to use the gunnery pod method to control the Sharlins 100+ weapons, than having several people waiting on orders.

It is said that the warrior caste fights aboard the Sharlins, I doubt they consider pressing buttons a form of fighting.

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by danny_in_space:
But this gunnery pod is most likely how other Minbari ships operate.

Other than an angelfish, the Sharlin could be said to resemble a being. It would be far easier for someone to use the gunnery pod method to control the Sharlins 100+ weapons, than having several people waiting on orders.

It is said that the warrior caste fights aboard the Sharlins, I doubt they consider pressing buttons a form of fighting.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK my turn *L* I agree that I would think the warrior caste would probably prefer actually fighting their enemies rather than just pushing a button. I did however think that the scream was a bit off. We are assuming that Rangers are very proficient as martial artists right? Well in Martial arts yes you do yell but it would not be a sustained scream. Rather each movement or snap of the wrist or foot would be followed by a sharp yell. This is used to make the punch or kick have more power as you are using your breath as well as your body to do it. When a person would just scream like that they would run out of air which would make thier shots less powerful. I used to take Tae Kwan Do and this is what i remeber of it. I would like to see "Sarah" employ more of the short yell technique as I think it is more accurate. Just my opinion.
smile.gif


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I am a Ranger.
We walk in the dark places no others will enter.
We stand on the bridge and no one may pass.
We live for The One.
We die for The One.
 
However, when you're already tired yet have to carry on... it is best to have spirit in your yell. Takes the mind off the pain, increases oxygen etc. Like pushing a car up a hill, you'll be yelling like hell and find strength from it. As Sarah is not Minbari, she cannot possibly hold up to what the Minbari have to deal with. Which is why it probably tired her out quickly, and so had to yell just to keep her strength up.

Haven't seen it though, so take this with a mountain of salt.
smile.gif


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Marc Cosgrove

"From chaos, order came. As was inevitable." -Summoning light
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zaptan:
Reading this tread it seems most of you only look at the pod itself and not the Pod's use in the ship itself. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not at all. I am looking at it's use in what it is supposed to do: Fight other ships.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> [B}
the Liandra is a tiny ship, they said a crew of 20. having 4 people on the Guns, while may be better tacitly, is just not possible. you have one weapons officer, while the whole command staff should know how to work the weapons. for a backup I would be that the place she sat at on the bridge has a 2d targeting system if faster response is needed. Or even more likely seeing how the computers interact with her in the pod there's most likely a auto fire mode. [/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Precisely BECAUSE the ship has a limited crew, it would make more sense to give her a targeting system in which she can see all the ships surroundings, and not just part of it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> Lots of people complain that this system is a bad idea in the case of a big battle, well seeing how small the ship is, yet still to big to be called a fighter class, Is not designed for battle. the weapon systems are for defense. Its a 20 year old ranger ship built before the shadow war, before the Earth-minbari war, it was during the ranger's time of waiting. no need for a battleship. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Battle is not necessarily a big battle, but any engagement. Whether with one ship or a dozen, by the time she is in the pod, the ship can be toast.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> the punch kick system was found not to be a great system... which is why you don't see it on other ships. Why then have this pod? as the Liandra was built during the ranger's time of waiting Ill bet the use of the Pod was more for scout purposes then just gunning, But because of the events, that was the only system in it used this time. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A dead scout is not usually very informative. Remember the fate of the Narn ship sent to Z'ha'dum?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> Personally I liked the Idea... Most of the Ideas Posted here still involve Pushing a button... which is seem was exactly what they DID NOT want to do. Original Ideas are in short supply now days, Don't complain about the few that make it out.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I understood the quote provided, they had no problems with buttons, since they originally planned for her to sit in a chair. But that proved too expensive.

I still advocate a holographic display of the ship and its surroundings. Right on the bridge where she is located. No delay. No limited field of view. Everything there to be shot at if it poses a threat and most importantly as soon as it poses a threat. Not 15 seconds later.



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If I tell you my name is Lorien, what good is that?

(Whatever happened to Mr. Garibaldi?)
 
I'm not too concerned about stamina. Yes, it can be an issue. But bear in mind that boxers go fifteen rounds, albeit they can rest in between rounds.

The biggest problem with the kick-boxing fire control is reaction time! Throwing three punches takes a hell of a lot longer than twitching a finger three times. A button can be pressure sensitive to give a gunner the capability to adjust the fire power.

So, as I said before, I like the gun pod concept. I just hope that in the series they'll wrap some story around so as to do something about the kick-boxing with respect to reaction time. I made a couple suggestions earlier, for example.

And BTW, our nitpicking technical criticisms don't just connote negativity. They also indicate a considerable amount of positive enthusiasm for the show. For example, I wouldn't bother spending time critiquing the current season of "Earth Final Conflict". That show just isn't worth it. Rangers on the other hand is awesome and speaking for me alone, my nitpicking is an indication of my enthusiasm for the show. I love it. I've already watched it three times.

[Man, I need to get a girlfriend!!!]
tongue.gif


Cheers,

Eirik

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It never ends; it only changes!
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by eirik:
I'm not too concerned about stamina. Yes, it can be an issue. But bear in mind that boxers go fifteen rounds, albeit they can rest in between rounds.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes but also when Liandra or whitestars enter battle sure some battles will last not long but I am sure some will got for many hours and large scale one's for even days or longer...

I guess if battle goes to long that Sarah gets tired she could always take shifts with somone esle if they knew how to use the pod.



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Deviot
Lincbot@yahoo.com.au
 
as to innovation, i bow to those who write science fiction for a living. as to practicality, i bow to those who have the science and tactical knowledge of how such things would work. as a viewer, it made me laugh and cringe every time it was used. it just looked silly. especially the road-rage version. 'might have worked in something like "red dwarf" though.

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"what is it, you moon-faced assassin of joy?!?!!"
 
Especially with that last part about Miriam's body, right?

(Don't worry, hypatia, I won't let you like me for too long
wink.gif
)

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
 
I really want to know how sitting at your console you can see more then you could in the pod? If you mean scanner readouts.. thats really Nothing like seeing the ships. a 2d screen on your console could never give you the information we saw in the pod.

as for reaction time we never saw an emergincey type situation but as I said the computer mostlikey fires with out input until the gunner gets setup

the holographic display you talk about is in the larger ships, I guess the rangers dident want that. also the holographic display has the SAME limited field of view... what your looking at

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Master Of Death
Zaptan
 
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