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JMS - Non-update update

since it usually ends up causing me to yell at the TV or newspaper or whatever something to the effect of, "It's as plain as day, you morons! GOD! They're missing out on such a huge opportunity!" or something like, "You idiot! Don't you see what's going to happen if you do this?! GOD! Morons everywhere in power...why can't someone with a little common sense make some decisions every now and then?!" or, "That's not the story you should tell, dipshit! What were you thinking?!"

You have a mic. in my house? I mean, there you go again, plagiarizing my words. :LOL:

Plagiarism is a very strong accusation...besides, how did you find that mic? I thought I hid it really well. :D
AHA!!! I used a lot of those phrases verbatim (talking about WB and Sci-Fi) when Sci-Fi/Bonnie Hammer decided to go with B5:LotR instead of Crusade. <grumble, grumble>

The dog found, and ate, the mic.


KoshN...funny thing in all of our previous postings back and forth to each other (and taking up a great deal of word space in this thread :LOL:) I would have to say that we're both arguing almost the same points. Some minor facts are off, but we're both seeing the same side of the coin. Difference is, I'm looking at things from a positive side...perhaps a bit too sunshiny :D...and you're being conservative in your hopes.
I keep my hopes way down. That way, I might be pleasantly surprised.


Bottom line is we both are hoping for the same thing.
Yep.

Like I said, you and I aren't happy with the new SW films...I'm with you there, but like them or not, they've made gobbs of moola for GL.
I saw Episode I (Just once!) at the theater, and almost walked out of it.

I saw Episode II (Just once!) at the theater, thinking it had to be better than Episode I, and almost walked out on it during the frolicking in the flowery field scene. :rolleyes:

Maybe it's because I'm now ~20 years older, and the actors had a lot to do with my liking Ep. IV thru VI, but the new films just seem empty and uninspired.

These were the REAL Star Wars:
Star Wars: Episode IV - A New Hope (1977)
Star Wars: Episode V - The Empire Strikes Back (1980)
Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983)


The one thing I will say positively for the next trilogy is that GL will have nothing more to do with them except to EP them.
I still don't think they should be made because they'll keep other stuff out of the market, much like with JMS and his avoidance of Ep. I, II, and III. I doubt I'd go see Ep. VII, VIII or IX. In that way, I think I'm getting like Gharlane was with his refusal to read Dell #8, #9, or any of the DelRey B5 trilogies.

From: "Gharlane of Eddore"
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2000 1:56 AM
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "ArsenicMan"
> >Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
> >Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 4:00 PM
> >> Question: About how many words long are each of the Del Rey books? (on
> >> average)
> >
> >Rough estimates below:
> >
> >Book#1 Voices, 0-440-22057-2, Dell ~95694 words
> >Book#2 Accusations, 0-440-22058-0, Dell, ~85068 words
> >Book#3 Blood Oath, 0-440-22059-9, Dell, ~80442 words
> >Book#4 Clark's Law, 0-440-22229-X, Dell, ~101835 words
> >Book#5 The Touch of Your Shadow, the Whisper of Your Name, 0-440-22230-3,
> >Dell, ~57288 words
>
> It looks like a lot less than 57000 words to me; did you take the
> much-larger type font and fewer lines per page into account,

[I did.]

> or
> just count the pages?
>
> I stopped trying to read them at Number Seven.

Been bitten once too often, and he really didn't like #7, or Cavelos.
 
Nah, I just think and type really, really fast.
I wasn't talking about you colonyearth, I replied to KoshN's post. Did you see that sucker? That was the longest post Ive seen on this board. DAMN! Yep, 2 hours at a minimum for that...
 
CE, interesting posts. Your ideas has let me to believe a trilogy of B5 movies is indeed possible. But only because I think JMS would only need about $100 million, maybe even less.

Remember the early estimate of $35M for one high quality feature film, so 3 for about $100 should be possible.
Shooting 3 films together should reduce costs (or increase the quality with the same budget). Finding a cost effective location, like New Zealand was for LOTR, may also be an option.

If a B5 trilogy would be possible with $85 million, I think WB will do it. But not for $150 million, not at once.
 
Alright so, let me get this straight;

We're not there yet?

okay.


How 'bout now? Are we there now?

no?

aw. . .

how 'bout now?
 
Holy long freakin post Batman!

How many hours did it take you to type and organize that sucker? I'm guessing at least 2.

How'd you like my italic lead-off? That was just for you. :LOL:

I didn't keep track how long it took. Did it in three chunks, between phone calls and walking the dog. I tried to snip. I really did. There was just a lot to cover. <shrug>
 
KoshN that post was surely the War and peace of this forum.
Do i get a medal for finishing it??
Is sci-fi in decline?? Yeah, at the moment. but it comes and goes in waves, 3-4 years ago it was on the upsurge, new Star Wars films, no-one had quite cottoned onto the fact that Trek was dying, and Buffy and Angel were strong. We've reached the end of that wave now, and will have to wait for another.
Producers of TV and movies tend to follow trends, once another sci-fi project makes it big a new wave will start.
I'm still holding out for a SW return to form with Episode3.
I'm all set for Riddick, the trailer seemed cool and I loved Pitch Black.
As for the new Dr Who, i can't wait. But with all the internal political problems in the BBC it may not happen, especially now its champion Greg Dyke has been given the
push.
One of these might deliver, along with a new B5??
 
A) There was no taking. Only creating something of notable similarity. This is not stealing. I must continue to insist that you employ terms suitable to describe intellectual property.

You can insist all you like, but I'll say again: in the field of intellectual property, in which I have worked as a professional for many years, infringement of copyright is indeed viewed as _stealing_. So I'll continue to say that it is.

B) Whether it was wrongful... is not determined. You merely claim it to be wrongful. I claim the opposite.

Yes, but my claim is based on knowledge of the law and professional experience.

Sorry, but we do in fact use the term "stealing" in the field of intellectual property.

Sorry, but "we" do not. You do.

Oh, do you work in intellectual property, too? Where do you work? When I said "we" I wasn't being facetious or contriving to be falsely inclusive; I am speaking as an insider in this field.

Incorrect. Prove the loss of income, or show a mechanism by which is occurs. I will prove the opposite -- namely that fan fiction (and games like IFH) actually contribute to Warner's income from B5.

I've already done so. No one can actually definitively prove a loss of income with regard to something like game sales, but you can indeed say there was a loss of license fee. But more importantly - and many people are disregarding this fundamental point in arguing this issue - is that anyone who makes and distributes a freeware game without the copyright owner's permission is denying the copyright owner of their right to say what is and what is _not_ done with their copyrighted property. Maybe they just didn't want that property out there for...for whatever reason. Neither the game maker, nor the fans, have any right whatsoever to say, "But this game is good, and it's promoting interest in the property, and besides, there's no official game anyway." It ain't yours to do with as you wish. It belongs to Warner.

I am relatively certain of the opposite. While your experience in copyright issues may be good, mine is by no measure poor.

Fair use has bearing here -- from the viewpoint of fan fiction and freeware games being non-profit. If someone challenges alleged copyright infringement... establishing that profit motive existed is frequently important to making a successful case.

And with this, you belie your own comment that your knowledge of intellectual property is "by no measure poor." Because fair use has absolutely nothing to do with this manner of use of a copyright. If you'll read through US Copyright Law fully you'll see absolutely immovable verification of what I say.

My counter-argument would be Warner's awareness of both fan fiction, fan art and fan-made software... and their silent acceptance of it, despite full rights to challenge its existence.

If the very owner of the property does not challenge what you depict as a serious offense... I must express some serious reservations about your reasoning (and it having any bearing on current reality).

Warner does not *appear* to consider themselves particularly infringed against. Appearances are often deceptive, but I have some degree of trust in IFH developers mentioning that Warner has *not* contacted them, not to speak of requesting them to cease their actvity.

First of all, neither of us knows what action Warner has or has not taken against _any_ infringers (with the exception of infringement cases I've jointly pursued with them on behalf of some composers whose works our companies share). So I can't comment on that. Second of all, you'd have to prove that Warner knows about this game and is ignoring it, which is a mighty hard thing to prove. I know that to everyone reading this, Big Bad Warner seems like a huge evil empire with unending resources and an army of lawyers, but the reality is that staff is _not_ unlimited, and generally the department taking care of such subsidiary rights is understaffed and overworked. And while fans and game players may think that "I Found Her" is an incredibly famous and well-known and ubiquitously downloaded piece of software, the fact is that it's very unlikely that Warner does know about it. Did you write to their General Counsel's office and inform them about it? No. Did I? No. Who did? Do you think the staff there has the time and resources to surf the web all day, or to hang around on B5 message boards reading this stuff? IMHO, it is extremely unlikely that Warner has even heard of "I Found Her."

It is your prerogative to consider it theft, while factually it cannot be.

US Copyright Law, the copyright departments of every producer of media of any kind, and probably every IP lawyer in the country (to say nothing of their paralegals and clerks) would disagree with you.

Aisling
 
Re: Game legality

Despite fair use *not* being the point of my arguments, I must nitpick here. Fair use has no exception against computer games. Actually, while format and media do matter, they matter relatively little. Selling or giving away... is much more likely to matter.

Computer games are not included in the fair use exemption. Fair use is to protect small uses in connection with (and here I quote from Section 107 of US Copyright Law) "criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research." Not games. Not computer games. Not any sort of commercial distribution (and whether or not a freeware game makes any money has nothing to do with the intent of the distribution, which is indeed commercial).

Your quoting of those four parameters of Fair Use underscores the old saw "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing." I know you've at least visited the Copyright Office's website and found the section on Fair Use, because you quoted those four parameters reliably, but what you left out was _context_. Fair Use is not, and probably never will be, fully tested, however the law provides _exactly_ what exemptions were intended by Fair Use, and I've quoted it above. Just to reiterate: "criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research". Period.

Within those situational confines, the four parameters are then used to determine whether or not a use can be characterized as Fair Use.

So, sure, the purpose and character of the use within a review. The amount and substantiality of the portion used in a face-to-face teaching situation. Etc.

As such, they knowingly set themselves up as an easy target for "cease and desist". Which has not been requested until now.

Therefore the owner of the property has, by inaction, decided. The informal nature of inaction grants them full right to revise their choice of non-interference... but then again, who would expect the opposite?

I said it in my last post; I'll say it again: with the exception of some cases I jointly pursued with Warner's copyright department, neither you nor I have any information whatsoever about what Warner has or has not done with regard to any infringement case. And, as to your second point, try to prove that Warner has knowledge of this game. Are there letters in their files from 'whistle-blowers' telling about the infringement? Has the game maker been advertising their freeware game on national television, or in national publications? So then how do you propose they know about it? By osmosis?

Non-profit derivative works small in extent compared to the original work (in case of B5: fan fiction, CGI models, freeware games, screen savers, whatnot) are almost never formally licensed, since that would cause more hassle than it is worth.

Yet generally, while they accept no profit (and refrain from competition with the owner) they are not legally challenged either. Unless someone does cause them loss, copyright owners generally leave such forms of expression alone. They would never sign a contract to guarantee that... but in reality, they do.

Your argument completely disregards this practise, which though not universal, is not limited to Warner. You should accept that choices not formalized... are choices too. This field of human activity does not, in current reality... rely on previous contract.

Actually, I'm happy to comment on this. It's true that many small, amateur uses go unlicensed. I assume you're talking mainly about fanfic. This is a case of "picking your battles." Since resources and manpower _are_ limited, Warner simply cannot afford to puruse every single fanfic writer for weeks and months to get a $35 license fee from each of them. So yeah, fanfic does largely go unlicensed, 'with a wink and a nod.' But that doesn't mean it isn't an infringement. It's just, relatively speaking, small potatoes: in nearly no instance would anyone mistake a piece of fanfic for a professional product. It doesn't sit on the bookshelves at Barnes & Noble next to other licensed books, it's often riddled with typos and grammatical errors, and it's also often just _bad_. And no one in their right mind would think that a story about Vir and Lennier having sex is official canon! :p Having said that, the problem with these games is that most of them _are_ fairly-to-very professional, and _could_ be construed as competition to a professional, licensed product. Thus, in _those_ cases, Warner does indeed have a duty to protect their copyright by pursuing the infringer. If someone had the time and initiative and resources to produce a professional game, they also have the resources (or should) to seek a proper license. Because no one is writing a story about Vir and Lennier having sex with the idea of distributing it and adding either to their income or their professional reputation, but someone coding a professional game _is_. Something of that level of professionalism is going to add to the producer's cachet in some manner, whether tangible or intangible, and once you get into that realm - the professional realm - the ramifications of the infringement become graver and much more notice-worthy from the perspective of the copyright owner and their army of lawyers.

Aisling
 
Re: Game legality

Head over to firstones.com and you'll find that one or two old members of the into the fire development team have given their support to 'ive found her', as an outstanding achivement.

Very nice for them, but remember, the Into the Fire development team does not own the Babylon 5 property. So, such support is moot from a rights perspective.

Aisling
 
Re: Game legality

At this point in time, with the B5 "franchise" dormant, things like this could be said to be a positive for WB. You have to assume that WB know about IFH, as it has been all over the net since the prequel campaign was released, and if they do why have they chosen to remain silent and not kick up a fuss?

It is only the owner's place to say whether or not such a distribution is a "positive thing." No one else has the right.

Regarding whether or not WB knows about it, as I've posted elsewhere on this thread, how? Who do you think is working in the copyright departments of places like Warner? I can tell you, as the head of a copyright department who is also a fan of sf, I am _greatly_ in the minority in the IP world. Also, when I was working at a large publishing house, I didn't have _time_ to play around on the newsgroups and message boards. So unles someone actually brought something like that to my attention, I wouldn't have seen it. Why is everyone so sure that Warner knows about this? It's colossally egotistical to assume so, if you think about it.

Perhaps they see the benefit of the game creating a buzz and keeping fans talking about the show

Ya know, maybe so, but I wouldn't hazard a guess on this: my interest is in debating the legalities, which is my field. You can argue until the cows come home whether or not all these amateur projects are good for the franchise, and I would probably agree with you as a fan...but as a copyright professional, I feel very strongly about disseminating correct, factual information. I go pretty much nuts when people scream "It's fair use!" without knowing anything about the subject except the catchphrase itself. Ugh! I guess I'm a bit hypersensitive from having to explain it so often over the years... :)

In and of itself, IP law may be straightforward, but the implications of it are not, especially where the owners of the property are concerned.

Absolutely true, and very well spoken.

Aisling
 
Re: Game legality

now we're off into the land of copyright law (a rather dry and arrid place to be I might add).

I couldn't disagree more, colonyearth. Copyright law is endlessly fascinating, and certainly the most interesting (paid) work I've ever done. Especially now, when it's in a period of such tremendous upheaval.

Aisling
 
Re: Game legality

Yeah CE, i'm a little worn by this now, but AS clearly does know her stuff. My knowledge of fair use is limited to telling people off for over-using the library photo-copiers!
Still, copyright law is probably as interesting know as its going to be, all thanks to the net.
Anyway, lets hope for another JMS announcment soon, eh :D
 
Re: Game legality

Anyway, lets hope for another JMS announcment soon, eh

Amen to that! People are ready to tear each other apart, here and on every other B5 message board, forum, and newsgroup. The tension is getting reeeeeallly bad...!

Aisling :p
 
You can insist all you like, but I'll say again: in the field of intellectual property, in which I have worked as a professional for many years, infringement of copyright is indeed viewed as _stealing_.

You can insist all you like, but I'll say again: in the field of intellectual property, in which I have worked as a professional for many years, infringement of copyright is very frequently not viewed as stealing.

It is viewed as the actual offense it is -- without going for simple-minded name calling. The variety of violations possible with intellectual property is *not* limited to moral equivalents of theft, but much wider.

For example, you don't call your customer a thief -- because of a technicality involving terminal emulation and the counting of licenses. Likewise, you generally don't call your project partner a thief -- even if some confusion remains over code sharing.

You can. However if you do... there is high probability that your move is unwise, and your description inadequate.

Yes, but my claim is based on knowledge of the law and professional experience.
As I mentioned, my claim is based on the same sources -- and common sense.

Oh, do you work in intellectual property, too? Where do you work?
Software design and engineering for labeling, barcode, logistics and mobile data collection. Not an old fish... but I do have approximately 100 projects under my belt.

Most of them required either study of copyright issues... or negotiation of said issues with suppliers, partners and customers. Often to assemble a product/solution belonging to multiple companies and/or including GPL freeware mixed with commercial software.

I've already done so. No one can actually definitively prove a loss of income with regard to something like game sales, but you can indeed say there was a loss of license fee.
You did try, but your proof does not suffice.

As you mentioned... one cannot definitely prove anything regarding game sales (or future game sales). Historically, Warner never had any B5-related computer game sales.

In case of non-commercial freeware, a situation can exist where a potential licensee has no income or funds. In such conditions, a license *fee* cannot exist. This makes it a simple choice: allow or deny.

Even if business logic would say "allow", legalities (like the necessity of having all options open) often block a business decision and result in "deny".

In such situations, one solution does still exist: never ask. Instead acknowledge your weak legal basis, and promise to stop when requested. Risky -- yes. Illegal -- to be determined, neither by you or me.

Theoretically a license would be nice. Practically, as I mentioned, licensing something so small... is simply unfeasible.

On the opposite side of the balance... every person learning about B5... is a potential customer for Warner. Apply a certain factor, and you have a certain amount of real customers. Reckon in the products bought/licensed... and you have real profit.

It is only the owner's place to say whether or not such a distribution is a "positive thing." No one else has the right.
Illegality is determined by a qualified court, not by you or me. You can forever allege that IFH is theft... and I oppose, calling it commendable and beneficial contribution.

Where answers are uncertain... everyone has the right to guess (and by guessing, take a legal risk). Whether the owner disapproves and takes action... is the decision they get to make.

Sometimes, in fields where formality would result in denial, but silent acceptance has been demostrated to exist... this pathway *is* more feasible than asking.

Second of all, you'd have to prove that Warner knows about this game and is ignoring it, which is a mighty hard thing to prove.
You are asking me to ascertain what is not within my resources to ascertain. Not having infinite time, I insist that you carry the burden of proof. :)

As the party accusing someone of theft, I would say it remains *your* duty to prove actual wrong-doing -- not my duty to disprove it, by fetching for your examination something rather difficult to obtain.

IMHO, it is extremely unlikely that Warner has even heard of "I Found Her."
Very big leap of logic, although not absolutely impossible. A company consists of people. To assume that *nobody*, on any relevant position at Warner, has *any* interest in B5... is a big assumption to make. Because provided any interest in things related to B5, one would notice IFH fairly quickly.

US Copyright Law, the copyright departments of every producer of media of any kind, and probably every IP lawyer in the country (to say nothing of their paralegals and clerks) would disagree with you.
A massive majority of them would *not* consider it theft. Multiple would consider it a venture on very shaky ground, several consider it a copyright violation... but no reasonable person would consider it theft. Because it is not.
 
Second of all, you'd have to prove that Warner knows about this game and is ignoring it, which is a mighty hard thing to prove.
You are asking me to ascertain what is not within my resources to ascertain. Not having infinite time, I insist that you carry the burden of proof. :)
That one is easy. It has been mentioned on the Babylon 5 news group that is part of the Warner Brothers web site. It will be up to them to prove that they do not know about it.
 
Re: Game legality

The part about fair use deserves a separate post.

Not games. Not computer games. Not any sort of commercial distribution
Consequently, Babylon 5 might be theft. A commercial distribution... it contains limited extracts and quotations (not to speak of character names and conceptual similarities) from multiple protected works. Most were taken without license.

As you see, your interpretation of fair use... too disjointed from the degree of use (and overly preoccupied with the format of presentation) when applied to full extent, would reduce itself into absurdity.

Fair use (at least as understood in many countries, although possibly not in the US) often covers a wider range of purposes -- sometimes encompassing limited extracts and quotations even for commercial purpose, the right to backup, sometimes even a personal right to bypass copy protection (modifying a copyrighted work) for licensed viewing.

It frequently includes the right to parodize (make mockery of in a derivative work) and distribute the parody, even commercially, entertainment mixed with critique. :eek:

My familiarity with the US-specific parts of your Copyright Act, DMCA and related acts is limited (since I don't live or work there)... so perhaps US law does indeed contain a less-known clause excluding computer games... but the portion you quoted does certainly *not* specify that. It includes purposes, but does not exclude formats.

Despite not arguing that IFH fits within fair use... I should also mention that you have no certainty of which jurisdiction (and consequently, which definition of fair use) would be applied to a legal dispute over it.

Since there is no contract, there is nothing to specify a preferred jurisdiction. Aware of US copyright law, I know very little about Russian copyright law. But the point is, as mentioned, moot. I mentioned already in my first post... that one could argue for IFH exceeding fair use.

You perceived it as stating a relation to fair use... which does exist. Actually it appears that most copyrighted works (or their use) somehow relates to fair use, even if few things fit within its coverage.
 
Re: Game legality

SS, I completely agree with you on your assumption that fan projects like fan fic or the mentioned computer game increase the popularity of the show. BUT...

Concerning the legality of fan projects, take a closer look into this book: 'Interacting with Babylon 5: Fan Performances in a Media Universe' by Kurt Lancaster. And please read the chapter 'New plagiarism: Fan Websites'.

Now, they haven't sued anybody yet, but that doesn't mean that using images or characters from somebody else's creation is legal - even if a fan project doesn't make any money.

Just a small piece of info from me for this probably endless discussion.
 
Re: Game legality

Concerning the legality of fan projects, take a closer look into this book: 'Interacting with Babylon 5: Fan Performances in a Media Universe' by Kurt Lancaster. And please read the chapter 'New plagiarism: Fan Websites'.

I read the book last year -- despite which, that particular chapter is already somewhat blurred in my memory. Still, I think I can comment (if I manage to find time, I will re-read it this evening).

It it were any easier to determine *where* a copyright holder draws their line of tolerance... it would be easier to avoid any risk of stepping across it.

However, that line does not always follow what law might theoretically permit to do without license -- or sue someone for doing without. It runs across both sides.

Things are further complicated by the fact that formal licensing... is a technical impossibility for small matters. If people went by what a copyright holder formally allowed, copyright holders would have to formally allow *much* more, or many a TV show would be much worse off.

Copyright holders would not want to *formally* allow much more. It could turn against them. One could speculate that a copyright holder would prefer the freedom of sitting back, rising to challenge only when something truly offends.

There are admittedly... certain benefits to lack of strict rules.

-----

Thus, the line is frequently drawn in water and not vigorously enforced (in fact, many copyright holders consider it efficient *not* to enforce such things too strictly)... making what is accepted difficult to determine.

It is mostly determined by precedent, when something does occur which provokes the copyright holder to take action against something they *do* perceive to violate their interest.
 

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