JMS - Non-update update

[GaribaldisHair]

...I am not supporting theft, but creative achievement without profit motive -- as opposed to abandoning work due to lack of predicted profit.

My understanding of the situation was that Sierra, not WB, decided to scrap the game when it was 60% (ish) complete ... at the same time as they dumped around half of their other ongoing projects during a massive "re-structuring" of the company.

I also recall that it seemed to have little to do with a perceived "lack of predicted profit", as the buzz about the early demos of the game had produced almost unanimous acclaim among the gaming (not B5) community, with at least one online game magazine describing it as probably the most realistic space combat simulation ever produced (at that point in time). This indicated to me that it was destined to succeed even outside the established B5 fanbase right from the off.

The cancellation of the game seemed to me to have everything to do with what was happening within Sierra and precious little to do with the game's quality, marketability or predicted sales performance.

Don't you just love politics?

 

[darth_librarian]

Unlike stealing, neither fan fiction nor fan-made computer games deprive the owner/author of anything. Especially not in this case -- since the owner never succeeded in releasing a computer game.

You may argue that IFH (and modifications of existing commercial games along B5 themes) exceed the limits of fair use. I will counter-argue that Warner is aware of their existece -- and has not employed a single word/letter to stop their creation.

Fantastically well argued SS. I was going to get all self-rightous about copyright & theft etc, but you put this across very well.
Arguably, freeware games and fan-fics are in fact helping to raise the profile of the intellectual property in the eyes of the consumer, so could conceviably assist the promotion of other products based on the same IP.
If the freeware games were making money (which they are not) Warner would get angry. If they were better than Warners game, and people played the free one instead of theirs, they would get angry. But as SS said there is no other game.
Instead, freeware projects such as Into the Fire help to demonstrate to Warners the strength and resolve of the B5 community to support their franchise.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

I have just seen a TV advert for an 007 video game. Major movies these days produce games, so a B5 movie could.

A trilogy is an interesting idea. Babylon 5 is definitely the product to test it with. Even if it fails Warner Brothers can still make money.

Method. WB makes a theatre release of TMoS Part 1. If it is a sell out success then Parts 2 and 3 get theatre releases as well. If Part 1 turns out to be a cult film then Parts 2 and 3 get art house releases. (The modern equivalent of the art house being the smaller rooms in multiplexes during unpopular weeks.) If Part 1 is a flop then Parts 2 and 3 become direct to DVD films.

You can experiment on Science Fiction fans; just do not make the same mistake 3 times.

 

[Recoil]

CE, I'm still skeptical about WB committing to a multi-picture deal, as you suggested, but it does solve one problem: screen time for the characters.

Oh I think a multi-picture deal is out of the question. I think its highly likely that the secret project is a feature film, but there is no way in hell WB signed on for more than 1 movie. Lord of the Rings trilogy this is not. It is a TV show that had below average ratings --- barely was renewed and picked up for its 5th season --- whose re-runs on Sci-Fi channel and DVD sales helped it gain new fans. That isnt enough to warrant signing up for 2 movies. If the first does well then it could get another just the way all sequals do, but thats it.

 

[colonyearth]

Maybe it is going to be a B5 big screen trilogy. That would be cool and Rising Star the comic was going to be trilogy, why not B5.

Cerberus, please note my earlier posting in this thread regarding the argument for a possible trilogy.

CE

 

[colonyearth]

CE, I'm still skeptical about WB committing to a multi-picture deal, as you suggested, but it does solve one problem: screen time for the characters.

Oh I think a multi-picture deal is out of the question. I think its highly likely that the secret project is a feature film, but there is no way in hell WB signed on for more than 1 movie. Lord of the Rings trilogy this is not. It is a TV show that had below average ratings --- barely was renewed and picked up for its 5th season --- whose re-runs on Sci-Fi channel and DVD sales helped it gain new fans. That isnt enough to warrant signing up for 2 movies. If the first does well then it could get another just the way all sequals do, but thats it.

Actually B5 was doing very well in its ratings in key demographics. And the only reason they weren't sure whether they were going to get the fifth season had nothing to do with the popularity of the show, it's because the network that was running the show, PTEN, was shutting down (WB decided to start the "WB" instead). It is because of the success and popularity of the show that WB got with TNT and signed a deal so the arc could be completed. S5 was also so successful that TNT wanted a spin-off, thus CRUSADE. It is JMS who pulled the plug on CRUSADE, which actually did fairly well in the ratings despite that fact that fans knew ahead of time that there were only 13 episodes (this was mainly because fans wanted SciFi to pick up the show for its completion -- and that didn't fly because WB wouldn't share the rights to the show with SciFi).

So to say that B5 was nominally successful is actually not true...it was enormously successful, not only domestically but in syndication and worldwide.

For WB to put only $150 Million into a pre-planned trilogy, shot at the same time, would be a win-win situation. There is no way they wouldn't make a profit...none. The only way they could possibly ever loose money (don't forget there's domestic releases, foreign releases -- which would make the money on their own -- then merchandising and DVD sales -- which would all be cake)...as I was saying the only way they could ever loose money is if JMS so royally F&*ked up the screenplays that the fans got totally pissed and turned away -- which I think everyone will agree ain't likely to happen.

No, the timing is right for B5 -- like Brosnan missing the first chance to play Bond and then getting it when it did (the timing was best for him when it did happen)-- B5 is poised in my opinion to become the next SF film franchise. WB can see that TREK's film franchise (and TREK in general) is in deep s*%t, SW is about to be done with the pre-quels and SF in general seems to be on the upswing. Now is the time to strike. And B5 wouldn't cost nearly what SW or LOTR have cost. As has been pointed out here, JMS is known to be trifty with the cash and bring things in on schedule. With $50 million on a film JMS could and would bring us a bigger better story than the SW pre-quels have brought us, and the FX would be there to help tell the story instead of being the story, so they would surely be only where needed and wonderful.

Remember, that last talk of a B5 film was rumored to be budgeted at only $35 million. That's more than three seasons of the show cost all together. JMS would leap for joy I think to get $50 mill a film. Believe me...$150 million is what many big films cost these days -- for ONE film...JMS could bring them a trilogy for that. It is not unreasonable.

Besides, though I don't know if my source is correct, and I can tell you they don't know if what they're getting is correct...well, I won't say yet. Let's just wait and see what happens. But I will tell you if my source is correct in what they're hearing, then it's pretty cool, just like JMS said.

Ok, I'll quit rambling now

CE

 

[Recoil]

I hear your points, and agree that its not impossible I said it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY, which it is. I would be 99.999% certain that there is nothing in the que for more than 1 feature film if that is what this project indeed is. Here is why:

1) How many Television Series do you know of, have been renewed for more than 1 season at a time?

2) How many Feature Film deals have been signed at once for more than 1 movie?

The answer to #1 I am almost certain of is ZERO.

I heard a rumor about a show being renewed for 3 seasons once, but it was cancelled after the first season after that rumor, so either the rumor was BS or the network said it was cheaper to pull the plug and still pay out whatever agreements were in place. Net result, even thought it might have been annoucned as renewed for more than 1 season, the "fans" of that show only GOT one season.

The answer to #2 to the best of my knowledge is 1: Lord of the Rings trilogy.

This was done because in order to make the trilogy as visually breathtaking and epic New Zealand was where they wanted it filmed for all the scenery. It was going to be VERY expensive to make 1 movie, let alone three, and the movies needed to do EXTREMELY well to make it work. Due to the location and given the large amounts of money it would cost, it saved them a TON of money to shoot them all at once. It was still staggeringly expensive, but the savings of taking that risk was substantial so it made it worth while.

This would NOT be the case for B5 and you as much said so in your post. First off, the movies can be filmed anywhere. All you need is a set, and some CGI effects. It doesnt need to be filmed overseas. Second, if a B5 movie is on such a small budget ($50M) which you said, due to the fact it could be filmed anywhere would mean that there would be MINIMAL savings by filming them all at once. There just wouldnt be the savings justification to do it that way, so WB would never take the risk. Why bother? You can film one cheap. If it does good, you film another cheap. If you film 2 at once and save a couple million and the first one bombs, you are stuck with the second and your loss is BIG. Big loss vs Minimal savings? No studio would be stupid enough to attempt it.

This is why filming more than 1 movie in a series at once just plain ISNT done. LOTR was the exception and for good reason, but other movies just wont jump on the bandwagon because they simply do not need to. For LOTR it virtually had to be done.

 

[Recoil]

Besides, though I don't know if my source is correct, and I can tell you they don't know if what they're getting is correct...well, I won't say yet. Let's just wait and see what happens. But I will tell you if my source is correct in what they're hearing, then it's pretty cool, just like JMS said.

Oh, and for Christ's sake, just spit it out. Its not like there aren't a million and one nutty theories out here already anyway. One more won't hurt.

 

[rangerPHIL]

Well - I am now sold on the feature film idea.

However I think it would be dangerous to go for a trilogy of films. We have no idea that if a B5 movie was made it would be a cast iron success, despite the large fan base.

I personally think JMS should tread the waters a little. Concentrate on making so good a movie that Warners would have to make a second.

Also this would spin off the Video Game which was shelved. Lets face it - wouldn't it be great to take a starfury out for a spin.

So there you have it - We get a Movie (I HOPE), and also we get the Video Game.

( WE CAN BUT HOPE )

 

[PillowRock]

Just for the sake of accuracy:

1) How many Television Series do you know of, have been renewed for more than 1 season at a time?

The answer to #1 I am almost certain of is ZERO.

SciFi's initial (and only) contract order for First Wave was for 3 seasons, a total of 66 episodes. That is exactly how many they got to make. It was never renewed.

There may be other examples of cable nets just starting to air original series, who therefore know that *nothing* will get canceled the first year, giving more than a year at the beginning. I don't really know.

Of course, there was SciFi's now infamous contract for two seasons of Farscape (the 4th and 5th seasons). But SciFi found a way to wiggle out of that contract after the first of the two seasons.

2) How many Feature Film deals have been signed at once for more than 1 movie?

The answer to #2 to the best of my knowledge is 1: Lord of the Rings trilogy.

At the very least, there are the second and third Back to the Future movies and the second and third Matrix movies (you didn't really forget those already did you? ). Admittedly, those cases both involved sequels to extremely profitable first movies.

I'm not counting Kill Bill here because it was orginally intended to be one big film rather than the two "volumes" that we are in between right now.

I think that Lucas was contracted for all three of the current set of prequels at once. They weren't filmed that way, like LotR was, but your question was about deals being signed. I tend to suspect that there are other cases like this one.

Of course, back in the days of the "studio system" the studios didtn't have to bother to sign multi-film deals for multiple Thin Man or Judge Hardy movies. They had all of the players under long term contract, regardless of what they assigned them to work on. (Admittedly, that precedent from bygone business model is of little, if any, relevance.)

 

[AnlaShokGrey]

By calling something "stealing" when it is not, you are not only harming the reputation of the people involved, but your own credibility too. Please avoid doing that.

From Merriam-Webster OnLine:

stealing
intransitive senses
1 : to take the property of another wrongfully and especially as an habitual or regular practice
transitive senses
1 a : to take or appropriate without right or leave and with intent to keep or make use of wrongfully (stole a car) b : to take away by force or unjust means (they've stolen our liberty) c : to take surreptitiously or without permission (steal a kiss)

I must insist that you speak of intellectual property with terms referring to intellectual property. "Stealing" refers to physical property. It deprives the owner of the ability to use their property.

Sorry, but we do in fact use the term "stealing" in the field of intellectual property. "Infringement" is a bigger, scarier word, but a rose by any other name would still be stealing. So, insist away, but I'll continue to call it like I see it.

Unlike stealing, neither fan fiction nor fan-made computer games deprive the owner/author of anything. Especially not in this case -- since the owner never succeeded in releasing a computer game.

Wrong again. It most certainly does deprive the owner of something: income.

And, I have no information about this specific situation; I was referring to freeware games that have been released.

You may argue that IFH (and modifications of existing commercial games along B5 themes) exceed the limits of fair use. I will counter-argue that Warner is aware of their existece -- and has not employed a single word/letter to stop their creation.

I'm absolutely certain I have more knowledge of intellectual property than you, because otherwise you'd know that "fair use" has absolutely no bearing on this situation. So, rather than chide, I'll educate:

1) There is nothing whatsoever in the use of copyrighted materials by the creators of IFH that falls under "fair use";

and

2) Neither you nor I have any idea whether or not Warner's general counsel, or the general counsel of their agent in the applicable territory, has or has not contacted the creators of IFH, or their agents. Nonetheless, it doesn't make what they're doing any less illegal. The statute of limitations on any infringement claim Warner cares to make has not yet been exceeded.

Therefore, I consider your approach mistaken.

That's your prerogative; my opinion is based on fact, and knowledge of intellectual property law. What's yours based on?

By supporting a fan-made freeware game which *gets* released, as opposed to a something Warner authorised but never saw to finish...

...I am not supporting theft, but creative achievement without profit motive -- as opposed to abandoning work due to lack of predicted profit. Likewise, I am supporting the receptiveness of the market to new B5 products (there is that thing called "merit", and it does count).

If that helps you to sleep at night, more power to you. It is, however, theft, and if you have no compunction about stealing from JMS, you're welcome to do so for as long as you can.

Aisling

 

[AnlaShokGrey]

Fantastically well argued SS.

...and bearing absolutely no relation to the realities of intellectual property law!

Aisling

 

[colonyearth]

Just for the sake of accuracy:

1) How many Television Series do you know of, have been renewed for more than 1 season at a time?

The answer to #1 I am almost certain of is ZERO.

SciFi's initial (and only) contract order for First Wave was for 3 seasons, a total of 66 episodes. That is exactly how many they got to make. It was never renewed.

There may be other examples of cable nets just starting to air original series, who therefore know that *nothing* will get canceled the first year, giving more than a year at the beginning. I don't really know.

Of course, there was SciFi's now infamous contract for two seasons of Farscape (the 4th and 5th seasons). But SciFi found a way to wiggle out of that contract after the first of the two seasons.

2) How many Feature Film deals have been signed at once for more than 1 movie?

The answer to #2 to the best of my knowledge is 1: Lord of the Rings trilogy.

At the very least, there are the second and third Back to the Future movies and the second and third Matrix movies (you didn't really forget those already did you? ). Admittedly, those cases both involved sequels to extremely profitable first movies.

I'm not counting Kill Bill here because it was orginally intended to be one big film rather than the two "volumes" that we are in between right now.

I think that Lucas was contracted for all three of the current set of prequels at once. They weren't filmed that way, like LotR was, but your question was about deals being signed. I tend to suspect that there are other cases like this one.

Of course, back in the days of the "studio system" the studios didtn't have to bother to sign multi-film deals for multiple Thin Man or Judge Hardy movies. They had all of the players under long term contract, regardless of what they assigned them to work on. (Admittedly, that precedent from bygone business model is of little, if any, relevance.)

Taking this entire thing into quotes so as to make sure it's all there. Thank you PillowRock, some shining examples. Besides, as I said before, LOTR has changed the film industry forever. It showed that such gambles could pay off. Remember, Jackson was a fairly unknown director, yet JMS has proven he can tell a story over several seasons much less three films.

I never said it will be a trilogy...I'm saying that in my estimation it is a viable concept. And as for my source, I won't say who or where he is due to the fact that if it got out that I was leaking info from him...he would quite probably loose a wonderful job in the biz. So without revealing anything else...From what he claims, and even he says that this is by no means fact but Hollywood rumor that he was able to dig up on the B5 project (since even he said that WB is keeping a tight lid on this one, since he can usually find more out on anything)...he has heard that it is a three picture trilogy deal, which if successful would gaurantee a new series of some kind.

Now, let me remind you all this is not internet rumor, this is Hollywood rumor (which is not necessarily any better and in some cases much worse). This is not founded, which is why I didn't want to state it out loud. But I must admit it was what got me thinking on how WB might or could justify a pre-planned trilogy, which I then used this forum and others to carry out my thought processes in order to see what the general consensus might be.

Wow, I got a response alright. I'm not saying it will be a trilogy...but I can see where it could happen, it's not an impossibility. The one thing I can truly say I feel without a doubt is that it is a feature film -- at least one.

That is all, carry on.

OH, Stargate was renewed for S7 and S8 at the same time, and QaF (Queer as Folk) was renewed for S3 and S4 at the same time...should I go on...cause there are more.

And correct, Back to the Future really started it all. And there is a pretty big budget savings in shooting a trilogy as one big film. It also cuts through cast and crew red tape. One contract, three films, no one coming back for the second one after the first one's a hit and asking for more money. Just a couple of examples...not to mention the tearing down and the rebuilding of sets, etc.

It is a lot more cost prohibitive. Yeah. It's how I'd go...with something like B5 you're assured to make your money back...no question.


Anyway, MORE B5! COOL!

 

[KoshN]

Actually B5 was doing very well in its ratings in key demographics. And the only reason they weren't sure whether they were going to get the fifth season had nothing to do with the popularity of the show, it's because the network that was running the show, PTEN, was shutting down (WB decided to start the "WB" instead).

True.

It is because of the success and popularity of the show that WB got with TNT and signed a deal

...after much of the Season 5 material had been stuffed into Season 4, reducing the need for a Season 5. B5 could have gone to "The WB" if the different pieces of disfunctional WB would have played well together, instead of holding grudges.

so the arc could be completed.

As I said above, by the time S4 had been shot, a good deal of the reason for having a Season 5 had vanished.

S5 was also so successful that TNT wanted a spin-off, thus CRUSADE.

B5, as a whole, was successful and popular enough that TNT wanted a spin-off, CRUSADE.

It is JMS who pulled the plug

Let's see. JMS was working for Warner Brothers, who was working for (supplying a product to) TNT. TNT didn't like the product (CRUSADE), and JMS refused to compromise the quality of the product by making CRUSADE the "Baywatch Meets Wrestling in Space" that TNT wanted. So, TNT pulled the plug. This happened because TNT was finding out that people who tuned in to see B5 and CRUSADE were not sticking around to watch their other stuff (wrestling, sports, etc.), and the people who tuned to see their regular stuff, were not watching B5 and CRUSADE. That's why TNT wanted out of CRUSADE. It didn't fit their audience.

on CRUSADE, which actually did fairly well in the ratings

Whaaaaat?

TNT CRUSADE Airings, Ratings, Comments:
War Zone, 06/09/1999, 1.9
The Long Road, 06/16/1999, 1.4 (1st game of NBA finals)
The Well of Forever, 06/23/1999, 1.2 (4th game of NBA finals)
The Path of Sorrows, 06/30/1999, 1.1 (NBA Draft, so Crusade started at Midnight)
Patterns of the Soul, 07/07/1999, 1.3
Ruling from the Tomb, 07/14/1999, 1.3
The Rules of the Game, 07/21/1999, 1.0 (JFK Jr. plane crash)
Appearances and Other Deceits, 07/28/1999, 1.3
Racing the Night, 08/04/1999, 1.2
The Memory of War, 08/11/1999, 1.3
The Needs of Earth, 08/18/1999, 1.5
Visitors from Down the Street, 08/25/1999, 1.3
Each Night I Dream of Home, 09/01/1999, 1.4


Wouldn't a decent rating for TNT be about a 3 or a 4? Pre-emptions and the TNT-FUBARed airing order didn't help, either.

despite that fact that fans knew ahead of time that there were only 13 episodes

Fans knew, in June through September 1999, that there were only 13 episodes, because we were following things on the net (rastb5m, JMSNews, etc.).

(this was mainly because fans wanted SciFi to pick up the show for its completion

Wait a minute. What are you saying "this was mainly because...."? In April 2001, fans who watched Crusade on Sci-Fi, knew that there were only 13 episodes. Crusade's ratings on TNT were not very good for TNT. Crusade's ratings on Sci-Fi were as follows:

CRUSADE Sci-Fi Airings, Ratings:
Racing the Night, 04/09/2001, 1.1
The Memory of War, 04/10/2001, 1.0
The Needs of Earth , 04/11/2001, 0.9
The Path of Sorrows, 04/12/2001, 0.9
Visitors from Down The Street, 04/16/2001, 0.8
War Zone, 04/17/2001, 0.8
The Long Road, 04/18/2001, 0.7
The Well of Forever, 04/19/2001, 0.7
Each Night I Dream of Home, 04/23/2001, 0.7
Ruling from the Tomb, 04/24/2001, 0.7
The Rules of the Game, 04/25/2001, 0.7
Patterns of the Soul, 04/26/2001, 0.6
Appearances and Other Deceits, 04/30/2001, 0.6

...and not very good, even for Sci-Fi. The main reason was probably because fans knew that there were only the 13 episodes and no more.

-- and that didn't fly because WB wouldn't share the rights to the show with SciFi).

Now, that's true.

So to say that B5 was nominally successful is actually not true...it was enormously successful, not only domestically but in syndication and worldwide.

No, not enormousely successful. It was fairly successful in spite of many stumbling blocks placed in its path.

No, the timing is right for B5 -- like Brosnan missing the first chance to play Bond and then getting it when it did (the timing was best for him when it did happen)-- B5 is poised in my opinion to become the next SF film franchise.

Yes, if only WB will take the chance.

WB can see that TREK's film franchise (and TREK in general) is in deep s*%t,

Which probably serves to make WB more nervous, as they probably see this as a lack of interest in sci-fi in general.

SW is about to be done with the pre-quels

Stick a fork in SW, they're done. Ep. I & II stunk. I'm not going to go see Ep. III, rent it when it comes out on DVD, or probably even watch it when it airs on broadcast TV. Ptui!

and SF in general seems to be on the upswing.

??? It is? Evidence? Trek is in decline. SW is in decline. Andromeda is awful. Tru Calling is probably a goner. Angel is cancelled. Jake 2.0 is gone. And it seems to me that SG-1 is getting tired. Where is this "upswing" that you speak of?

Now is the time to strike.

Yes, but because there's little supply, little competition. Now is the quiet time when WB should ante up, and back B5 bigtime.

And B5 wouldn't cost nearly what SW or LOTR have cost.

No doubt about that, but WB is tight when it comes to B5.

As has been pointed out here, JMS is known to be trifty with the cash and bring things in on schedule. With $50 million on a film JMS could and would bring us a bigger better story than the SW pre-quels have brought us,

That, he could probably do in his sleep.

and the FX would be there to help tell the story instead of being the story, so they would surely be only where needed and wonderful.

And the FX would all have to be re-created from scratch. But, on a $50 million budget, that's not a problem.

Remember, that last talk of a B5 film was rumored to be budgeted at only $35 million. That's more than three seasons of the show cost all together. JMS would leap for joy I think to get $50 mill a film.

If his heart could take the shock . [kidding]

 

[PillowRock]

Fans knew, in June through September 1999, that there were only 13 episodes, because we were following things on the net (rastb5m, JMSNews, etc.).

And casual viewers knew too, by the time they actually watched. All of TNT's ads, including the ones for upcoming eps within the airings, always referred to Crusade as "A Limited Series".

 

[Recoil]

Pillow.

Good examples, but as you said, Back to the Future and Matrix were following very profitable FIRST movies.

Yes the Star Wars pre-quals are an example of something that was almost assuredly signed in advance, but Star Wars is on its own playing field, as LOTR turned out to be.

Kill Bill is about the best example of a NEW movie having a Part I and II pre-planned that is outside the grand epic scales of Star Wars and LOTR.

I agree that LOTR changed things, but its not something I see studios jumping on the bandwagon for if they are venturing into totally unknown territory.

CE:

Interesting rumor, which I would take with a grain of salt and then some. I myself am almost convinced its a movie, but I still doubt highly that its a 2 to 3 parter. If it is, hey, Ill be plesantly surprised. I just don't see how it can be, but we will hopefully find out soon here...

 

[colonyearth]

Actually B5 was doing very well in its ratings in key demographics. And the only reason they weren't sure whether they were going to get the fifth season had nothing to do with the popularity of the show, it's because the network that was running the show, PTEN, was shutting down (WB decided to start the "WB" instead).

True.

It is because of the success and popularity of the show that WB got with TNT and signed a deal

...after much of the Season 5 material had been stuffed into Season 4, reducing the need for a Season 5. B5 could have gone to "The WB" if the different pieces of disfunctional WB would have played well together, instead of holding grudges.

so the arc could be completed.

As I said above, by the time S4 had been shot, a good deal of the reason for having a Season 5 had vanished.

Ah, but there was more arc to tell. As for the dysfunction of the various subsidiaries...TNT wasn't a walk in the park either.

S5 was also so successful that TNT wanted a spin-off, thus CRUSADE.

B5, as a whole, was successful and popular enough that TNT wanted a spin-off, CRUSADE.

B5 was still doing quite well in the ratings...for a cable show with a no name start, B5 was a huge success story. And was Sci-Fi's top rated syndicated rerun for a long time.

It is JMS who pulled the plug

Let's see. JMS was working for Warner Brothers, who was working for (supplying a product to) TNT. TNT didn't like the product (CRUSADE), and JMS refused to compromise the quality of the product by making CRUSADE the "Baywatch Meets Wrestling in Space" that TNT wanted. So, TNT pulled the plug. This happened because TNT was finding out that people who tuned in to see B5 and CRUSADE were not sticking around to watch their other stuff (wrestling, sports, etc.), and the people who tuned to see their regular stuff, were not watching B5 and CRUSADE. That's why TNT wanted out of CRUSADE. It didn't fit their audience.

Actually, the plug had been pulled before CRUSADE even hit the air. So the lead-in audience wasn't an issue until later. And for a show that was already dead coming out of the starting gate...on a cable channel, those weren't bad ratings (Enterprise is pulling those numbers now and look at it's origins...Crusade's would've been better and presumably would have gone up if the series had lasted.)
JMS's refusal to cheapen the show to what the Atlanta TNT execs were telling him is what caused the end of the show. There is no B5 universe without JMS, that's in his contract with WB. If he walked...it was over. I believe JMS later referred to it as a parting of the ways or some such thing, insinuating that is was a mutual agreement. But either way, CRUSADE was dead before it hit the air...I remember that clearly since I was big into the movement to save it.

on CRUSADE, which actually did fairly well in the ratings

Whaaaaat?

TNT CRUSADE Airings, Ratings, Comments:
War Zone, 06/09/1999, 1.9
The Long Road, 06/16/1999, 1.4 (1st game of NBA finals)
The Well of Forever, 06/23/1999, 1.2 (4th game of NBA finals)
The Path of Sorrows, 06/30/1999, 1.1 (NBA Draft, so Crusade started at Midnight)
Patterns of the Soul, 07/07/1999, 1.3
Ruling from the Tomb, 07/14/1999, 1.3
The Rules of the Game, 07/21/1999, 1.0 (JFK Jr. plane crash)
Appearances and Other Deceits, 07/28/1999, 1.3
Racing the Night, 08/04/1999, 1.2
The Memory of War, 08/11/1999, 1.3
The Needs of Earth, 08/18/1999, 1.5
Visitors from Down the Street, 08/25/1999, 1.3
Each Night I Dream of Home, 09/01/1999, 1.4


Wouldn't a decent rating for TNT be about a 3 or a 4? Pre-emptions and the TNT-FUBARed airing order didn't help, either.

Again, look at what they were up against. Those are not bad ratings for an SF cult show spin-off that was dead coming out of the gate up against the NBA which carries much of the same demographic.

despite that fact that fans knew ahead of time that there were only 13 episodes

Fans knew, in June through September 1999, that there were only 13 episodes, because we were following things on the net (rastb5m, JMSNews, etc.).

(this was mainly because fans wanted SciFi to pick up the show for its completion

Wait a minute. What are you saying "this was mainly because...."? In April 2001, fans who watched Crusade on Sci-Fi, knew that there were only 13 episodes. Crusade's ratings on TNT were not very good for TNT. Crusade's ratings on Sci-Fi were as follows:

CRUSADE Sci-Fi Airings, Ratings:
Racing the Night, 04/09/2001, 1.1
The Memory of War, 04/10/2001, 1.0
The Needs of Earth , 04/11/2001, 0.9
The Path of Sorrows, 04/12/2001, 0.9
Visitors from Down The Street, 04/16/2001, 0.8
War Zone, 04/17/2001, 0.8
The Long Road, 04/18/2001, 0.7
The Well of Forever, 04/19/2001, 0.7
Each Night I Dream of Home, 04/23/2001, 0.7
Ruling from the Tomb, 04/24/2001, 0.7
The Rules of the Game, 04/25/2001, 0.7
Patterns of the Soul, 04/26/2001, 0.6
Appearances and Other Deceits, 04/30/2001, 0.6

...and not very good, even for Sci-Fi. The main reason was probably because fans knew that there were only the 13 episodes and no more.

Ok, there was talk when CRUSADE first aired on TNT about shopping the idea somewhere else, possibly SciFi. So many fans tuned in to make sure the ratings looked promising in order to help push CRUSADE's sellability to another network...again, presumably SciFi...not to mention the rather large "Save Crusade" campaign that went on aimed at SciFi. It was the no-sharing-of-ownership by WB that was the final death knell to CRUSADE.

-- and that didn't fly because WB wouldn't share the rights to the show with SciFi).

Now, that's true.

So to say that B5 was nominally successful is actually not true...it was enormously successful, not only domestically but in syndication and worldwide.

No, not enormousely successful. It was fairly successful in spite of many stumbling blocks placed in its path.

Is was because of those stumbling blocks and yet it's ever increasing ratings numbers that made it a great success. I remind you that B5 was on the forefront of the change that is now SOP in TV...the story arced series (that doesn't count soaps, nighttime or otherwise). It was due to this success that JMS was named as one of the top 40 most influential writers in Hollywood.

No, the timing is right for B5 -- like Brosnan missing the first chance to play Bond and then getting it when it did (the timing was best for him when it did happen)-- B5 is poised in my opinion to become the next SF film franchise.

Yes, if only WB will take the chance.

One can always hope...it's not a big risk from the numbers I've crunched in my head

WB can see that TREK's film franchise (and TREK in general) is in deep s*%t,

Which probably serves to make WB more nervous, as they probably see this as a lack of interest in sci-fi in general.

Not so....they will see the vacuum. Anyone with a brain can see why Trek is failing. B5 has a sturdy and visionary person at the helm, JMS -- unlike Trek with Berman and his croonies.

SW is about to be done with the pre-quels

Stick a fork in SW, they're done. Ep. I & II stunk. I'm not going to go see Ep. III, rent it when it comes out on DVD, or probably even watch it when it airs on broadcast TV. Ptui!

You may not have liked them...but the SW films have made a s*@tload of money. I didn't much care for them either, but they have been very successful. Not to mention LOTR (which Hollywood lumps SF and Fantasy into the same boat).

and SF in general seems to be on the upswing.

??? It is? Evidence? Trek is in decline. SW is in decline. Andromeda is awful. Tru Calling is probably a goner. Angel is cancelled. Jake 2.0 is gone. And it seems to me that SG-1 is getting tired. Where is this "upswing" that you speak of?

Back up and look. SW is successful, though many of the fans of the originals aren't happy. SG-1 has a new spinoff series that's all the buz. Andromeda always sucked and I never count anything much from UPN...and while Trek is in decline you can rest assured Paramount, though they may give it a rest, isn't done with that franchise. Angel gone, yes....and I don't count Tru Calling. I'm talking your good ole SF space fans. Dr. Who is about to return revamped and back in a big way....Stargate: Atlantis launches this summer, with one more season of SG-1 to go. Taken and the Dune mini-series both did very well. Battlestar Galactice, though some didn't like it, did very well and is about to launch as a new series as well. There's talk of bringing Farscape back to end the series (which wouldn't have been heard of a few years ago). SF always goes through a lull every few years...and it's due for its upswing. There are a lot of SF projects in the works which means Hollywood is expecting the upswing. Oh, and GL also has announced the SW EU (Expanded Universe), which at this point is in early stages of talks on the next SW trilogy (all of the original cast has signed on -- although GL will only EP, thank GOD!)

No, it's great timing to be on the crest of the next wave!

Now is the time to strike.

Yes, but because there's little supply, little competition. Now is the quiet time when WB should ante up, and back B5 bigtime.

Exactly, before you're second or third and end up looking like the people trying to keep up.

And B5 wouldn't cost nearly what SW or LOTR have cost.

No doubt about that, but WB is tight when it comes to B5.

As has been pointed out here, JMS is known to be trifty with the cash and bring things in on schedule. With $50 million on a film JMS could and would bring us a bigger better story than the SW pre-quels have brought us,

That, he could probably do in his sleep.

and the FX would be there to help tell the story instead of being the story, so they would surely be only where needed and wonderful.

And the FX would all have to be re-created from scratch. But, on a $50 million budget, that's not a problem.

Remember, that last talk of a B5 film was rumored to be budgeted at only $35 million. That's more than three seasons of the show cost all together. JMS would leap for joy I think to get $50 mill a film.

If his heart could take the shock . [kidding]

Such a budget wouldn't be unreasonable...the fans and future fans are there...the money's there waiting to come in...and yes, someone at WB has to see the opportunity...will they? I don't know...but they must see something...especially given the overwhelming DVD sales. We do after all have a new B5 project in the works...and it looks to me to be a theatrical feature.

I'm only sayin'

CE

 

[colonyearth]

CE:

Interesting rumor, which I would take with a grain of salt and then some. I myself am almost convinced its a movie, but I still doubt highly that its a 2 to 3 parter. If it is, hey, Ill be plesantly surprised. I just don't see how it can be, but we will hopefully find out soon here...

Oh, I take it with a grain of salt...like I said, I'm not saying it will be...I'm merely stating an argument to support the possibility that it could be. An argument that started in my head and I thought it would be fun to carry it to you guys.

As for my source, he's been right on other issues and is an insider. But like I said, even he says there's one hell of a tight lid on the new B5 project, since he can't get anything on it and no one there is talking...at all. That bodes well for this being something more in line with a feature film...but trilogy? Who knows...it would be a freakin' blast if it were true! And we all know, it would make its money back...then some.

I have this uncanny ability to see the big picture of things...and see possibilities and solutions that most people either can't or won't see. This is my biggest burden and a pain in my ass, since it usually ends up causing me to yell at the TV or newspaper or whatever something to the effect of, "It's as plain as day, you morons! GOD! They're missing out on such a huge opportunity!" or something like, "You idiot! Don't you see what's going to happen if you do this?! GOD! Morons everywhere in power...why can't someone with a little common sense make some decisions every now and then?!" or, "That's not the story you should tell, dipshit! What were you thinking?!"

Hell, I saw the downfall of Trek like 12 years ago. I knew where it was going and how it would get there...and I was right...step by step, exactly the way I saw it. Just one example.

Sometimes, I can see the best direction and wonder why no one else seems to see it. About 90 - 95% of the time I'm vindicated...and I rest in that knowledge.

Don't think I'm tootin' any horn here...believe me...it's a curse! Especially since I can't ever seem to get this insight to work when looking into my own little life.

Again, not sayin' it will be a trilogy...but it would fly...that much I see...it's a win-win situation. Whether WB will see that? Doubt it.

But, oh, if they did

CE

 

[Vonbloodbath]

I think a trilogy, preapproved, is a rank outsider. A single film, with an option for 2 sequels (ala Riddick) is more feasible.

I don't know anymore, I'm so confused. JMS - please put me out of my misery!!!



VB

 

[Kosomot]

I just wanted to add a few thoughts regarding this being a computer game. I personally think there is no chance that this project is a computer game and especially not a resurrected "Into The Fire" from Sierra.

First of all it is highly unlikely a B5 computer game would be produced without an active franchise to tie into.

Regarding Into The Fire from Sierra I would like to say the following. I have been following the PC game industry quite closely for many years and usually when a game is cancelled it is truly out of the picture with no chance of ever being released.

This holds true regardless of the game company allocating immense human and financial resources into the game and it being almost completed. I would consider it more likely to encounted a Vorlon in real life then Into The Fire in a store.

With that being said if the new project is successful then perhaps there is a chance of a new computer game being considered.

One fantasy scenario would be Bioware making a B5 RPG similiar to Knights of the Old Republic. This "Rangers of the Interstellar Alliance" game could be set after season 5 and perhaps include one mission where you fly a Starfury as a tribute to the cancelled Sierra game.