JMS speaks..

**DONOTDELETE** · Apr 9, 2002

I often define science fiction / speculative fiction in this way:

<ul type="square">[*]Tries to explain its magic with science, speculating about how technology develops / interacts with its users.
[*]Connects fictional times, places, beings and events (times often situated in the future) to real times, places and events.
[*]Speculates how human society changes (or remains unchanged) while getting to (or coming from) those fictional points.[/list] Babylon 5 and Star Trek involve both technology, social questions, space and the future (our future is likely to be in space or nowhere). Jeremiah involves society (what resulted), science (how it happened) and the future, but leaves out space. Star Wars tries to address technology and society, but lacks connections to our time ans place. Lord of the Rings has no connections to reality whatsoever, only addressing human nature. Buffy has extremely few conncetions to science fiction, not explaining its magic and taking place in the present. Another "alternative present" show called the X-Files involves science and speculates about society. Hence it could be classified as science fiction.

Recommendations?
Suggestions?
Criticism?

A_M_Swallow · Apr 10, 2002

I once watched a documentary about a hypnotist. He divided people into Star Trek minds and Coronation Street minds. (Coronation Street is a very long running working class English soap opera.)

The hypnotist preferred Star Trek minds because they had a lot more imagination. Coronation Street minds did not like going beyond the stereotypical people they meet in the local bar and shops.

You are not likely to meet Buffy, Xena or Delenn in your local corner shop. We like them all.

Quagmire · Apr 10, 2002

Concerning the lack of women who like scifi. I have to say that in my real life women don't like scifi. Using this board as an example is rediculous. If you post or even lurk here you are at least in some way a dork. Face it, nothing anyone says can change it. You may hide it well, like I do, but there is dork within you. A group of people willing to post to a board devoted to a cult scif show is hardly a representative sample of normal people.

The main character in Buffy is divinely gifted to fight and kill Vampires. This is fantasy regardless of any one shot villians or strawman arguments.

hypatia · Apr 10, 2002

I still say that you guys who say "I don't know any females who like science fiction" just don't know enough women!

Mine is not the only college that has a large number of female faculty and coordinators that are into science fiction.

You might have to look towards the science/math oriented people, though. Sorry, Channe, no disrespect intended. It's just that I always have known many women who love sci-fi. But I've always been a "math major" or "math instructor".

Anyhow, as I said elsewhere: just meet different women! /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

Joseph DeMartino · Apr 10, 2002

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Lord of the Rings has no connections to reality whatsoever, only addressing human nature. <hr></blockquote>

Obviously written by someone who has never read it. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif The framework of LotR is that it is set in an unimaginably distant past, rather like Conan's Hyborean Age, that existed in pre-history. But the story takes place on our very own planet, with the same Sun, Moon, plants and animals, in the area that will eventually become northwestern Europe. (Even the constellations are the same, Orion, for instance, so Middle Earth cannot be too far from Tolkein's England, either in time or in space.) The notion is that our fairy tales of elves, dwarves and dragons are merely the half-forgotten recollections of a time when we really did share the planet with such creatures, which have since "faded". The end of the Third Age in LotR actually marks the beginning of this fading, and the dominion of Men. We presumably live in the Fourth Age. So by your own definition LotR is 2/3rds science fiction, because it meets two of your three requirements. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

Regards,

Joe

Lyta · Apr 10, 2002

Originally posted by Doctor Gonzo:
If you post or even lurk here you are at least in some way a dork. Face it, nothing anyone says can change it. You may hide it well, like I do, but there is dork within you.

Hmrf, I vehemently take offense to that statement! I am a geek and proud of it! A dork is well ... not as cool as a geek. /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif /ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif

Yes, I may hide it well even if I don't do it conciously. One email or conversation about SciFi and the geek in me is revealed. /ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif

I agree with Hyp about getting out and meeting more women. Open your mind to the possiblities. You just may have to look a bit harder to find us, but we -are- out there. /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

channe · Apr 10, 2002

No offense taken, Hypatia. I don't honestly know many liberal-arts women that like SF. But I do know a ton of women who are coming to like it through things like Farscape, and who *love* fantasy.

For one, I really love SF. I love science. I find everything about science fascinating, and I'm a "post-Enlightenment nominalist," to put it to words. I'm just not any freaking good at it, dammit...

Math, on the other hand, is evil.

**DONOTDELETE** · Apr 10, 2002

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino:
Obviously written by someone who has never read it. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif<hr></blockquote>As true as it can get. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>The framework of LotR is that it is set in an unimaginably distant past...<hr></blockquote>So distant and detached that it lacks all connection to the where we come from, and where we might go. No connections to our relationship to science or technology. It can be viewed as speculative fiction only from the standpoint of analyzing human nature and very limited aspects of society.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>But the story takes place on our very own planet... [snip] So by your own definition LotR is 2/3rds science fiction, because it meets two of your three requirements. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif<hr></blockquote> I would discard that circumstance as one with little essence. By that definition, most historical works should automatically be called science fiction. For some odd reason, Earth alone does not seem a sufficient connection. Lack of technical insight does not support a connection. Abundance of magic futher severs the line. Lack of social insight finally breaks it. In my opinion, one should not call it science fiction, although purely as a logical excercise, you might find a trickle of overlapping themes present in *any* fiction.

Naturally, I could reliably claim all that only after reading the books, which I have not done. If my impression about "LOTR" is deeply biased, my claim may be null and void.

Quagmire · Apr 10, 2002

Are you gals actually listening to yourselves. "There's just gobs of female scifi fans in the math department faculty."

These are not the normal women you usually meet, even at a college. You women are freaks, not the norm. There isn't anything wrong with that but it's still true.

Recoil · Apr 10, 2002

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Originally posted by Doctor Gonzo:
Are you gals actually listening to yourselves. "There's just gobs of female scifi fans in the math department faculty."

These are not the normal women you usually meet, even at a college. You women are freaks, not the norm. There isn't anything wrong with that but it's still true.<hr></blockquote>
Amazingly blunt *tips his hat to DG* but accurate. And I am sure it was meant in a nice way. That is like saying that all the girls in the Mainframe server room are Sci-Fi fans too. ***!! Newsflash !!***

**DONOTDELETE** · Apr 10, 2002

In absolute terms, I know slightly more men than women who appreciate science fiction. The problem is this: in the same absolute terms, I know less women than men well enough to discuss their literary tastes.

So after considering it, in relative terms the percentages are roughly equal. I should form my claim this way: the percentage of women appreciative to science fiction among the entirety of women I know is roughly equal to the same figures for men.

RW7427 · Apr 10, 2002

Well, some people here might call ladies like Lyta and Channe and Kribu geeks, but I think they are actually kinda cool, and I enjoy posting with them. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

Oh, I also said that because I am just a plain nice guy. /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

channe · Apr 10, 2002

RW just wants to get on my "list." /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

It's ok. I've been a freak since the day I started reading the Pern novels.

PsionTen · Apr 10, 2002

Ok, there's seems to be several threads going on now, so I'll separate my remaks.

WOMEN & SCI-FI

Ok, never let it be said that I'm not a sexist pig, but I didn't mean anything derrogatory by my comments. I really never met a woman who was into sci-fi. I suppose you can say that I haven't met enough women in my life, but I've known/befriended/dated/hated a lot of women from a lot of different races and socio-economic levels.... none of them liked sci-fi. I can't even tell you how many women have ridiculed me for liking sci-fi -- of course they ridiculed me for a multitude of reasons, so I guess it doesn't matter. Granted, I haven't met many female scientists or mathmaticians, so that may account for it.

MALE & FEMALE BOARD MEMBERS

I think its agreed that the men do outnumber the women here, whether the number is "overwhelming" is pure speculation/observation on my part. I have no idea how many women (or men for that matter) lurk and never post. I'll agree that the men tend to post more. But it wouldn't surprise me if the men outnumbered the women by three to one, or more... that would be "overwhelming" to me.

PEOPLE WHO POST HERE ARE DORKS

If that's true, then it would certainly explain why the men outnumber the women.

DEFINITION OF SCI-FI

I've always hated this topic, because its almost always depends on personal choice and opinion ... how can you really debate that? You state your opinion, I state mine and then it goes on and on until somebody develops carpel tunnel syndrome. To be honest, I don't really think Buffy is purely sci-fi either, but I definitely think it has some sci-fi elements. I really don't put things like that into nice little categories, because nothing is ever a perfect fit. I prefer to use a spectrum approach ... some things are closer to what I consider "pure sci-fi" than other things. I dunno, maybe its crazy but it works for me.

SCI-FI CHANNEL

Some of my earliest posts here were criticisms of that channel. It's nice to see that people have finally caught up to what I already knew, this channel sucks. I don't even wanna know how much money these people sunk into drivel like the RoboCop and Firestarter miniseries and I don't think the ratings were all that better than what Rangers got -- if at all. I thought I saw where Firestarter garnered only a 1.9 and it certainly didn't air opposite the best NFL playoff game of all time. I dunno, if the sci-fi channel wants to move away from classic sci-fi fare, then more power to 'em -- but I won't watch.

Joseph DeMartino · Apr 10, 2002

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>By that definition, any historical or fantastic work in our past should automatically be called science fiction. <hr></blockquote>

Exactly my point, that the definition you cited is too broad, and that it in fact includes a number of worthwhile works which you avoid out of, it appears to me, pure prejudice. It seems to me that you tried to define SF in a way that limits it to that which you consider "worthwhile" material - which is to say, stuff you happen to like - but the definition really doesn't exclude as much as you'd like it to.

P10:

Yes, there are works that cross genres - action/comedies, romantic/adventures, etc. But the fact that you can create something that combines (elements of) two existing categories does not mean that the categories themselves don't exist. Buffy may use SF elements (although I would argue that things like robots really don't count as SF anymore), but that doesn't make it an SF show, or even partially one. Any element of supernatural fantasy really moves it out of the SF category, since SF always has an affinity with science, and that affinity should be part of the central idea of the piece. Buffy's central ideas are vampires, demons and the reality of the supernatural. Everything else is window dressing. Conversely I don't consider something like Outland to be genuine SF. It is simply a remake of High Noon in science-fiction drag. There is no central science fiction idea in the film - it is simply a Western transported to outer space. You could make exactly the same film on an oil rig in the North Atlantic or any other isolated locale and hardly have to change a line of dialogue.

While I did make the point that the categories aren't that hard and fast, broadly speaking you can say that Buffy and Forever Kinght are primarily supernatural horror shows, while B5 and the various Treks are primarily science fiction shows. (Although the Treks, in particular, frequently did entire episodes that also lacked any central SF idea, and which could have been produced for any non-genre show with minor changes. The preachier episodes of TOS and TNG were especially guilty of this, which is one reason that David Gerrold calls Trek a "science-fiction based format" rather than pure SF. The Star Wars films have even less connection with genuine SF, in the eyes of purists, although it would be hard to explain that to the general public.)

As for SF always (or usually) involving spaceships and aliens, here are a few SF films that involve neither, and which have a genuine SF idea at their core:

Bladerunner*
The Terminal Man
The Andromeda Strain
Jurassic Park
A Boy and His Dog
The Time Machine
1984
The Incredible Shrinking Man

* In the world of Bladerunner there are off-world colonies, but we never go to them and never see either a spaceship or an alien.

Regards,

Joe

hypatia · Apr 10, 2002

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Originally posted by channe:
.Math, on the other hand, is evil.<hr></blockquote>

GAAAAA! Where's that damned shut of switch anyway? Grrrr! /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

Kribu · Apr 10, 2002

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Originally posted by Doctor Gonzo:
Are you gals actually listening to yourselves. "There's just gobs of female scifi fans in the math department faculty."

These are not the normal women you usually meet, even at a college. You women are freaks, not the norm. There isn't anything wrong with that but it's still true.<hr></blockquote>
And none of the women I know who like scifi have anything to do with maths or science. There are a couple of people who are librarians by education but work in other fields and a couple of English/Estonian/journalism "majors" (well, that's what they had as the main subject at the university). Liberal arts, all of them (my own background being art history).

*Shrugs*

As Hypatia and others have said - you just have to meet different women. /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif
Of course, I admit that perhaps over here it's not as much a gender issue as it is in the US, which would explain why Lennier also thinks it's roughly equal here. And I have never heard anyone consider liking science fiction "geekish", "dorkish" or anything like that, it's generally accepted as normal behaviour.
Plus I guess it's never been considered a "guy thing" here either, which might explain why women not only watch/read it but also dare to admit it.

Jade Jaguar · Apr 10, 2002

Joe, while I agree with what you say, I would point out that technically, in The Andromeda Strain, we do see an alien - the virus, or what ever it was. Of course, it could have come from Tierra Del Fuego, instead of space. And there WAS a sort of High Noon on an oil rig in the North Sea. It starred Roger Moore, and was called Ffolkes (US title).

Hypatia, it's not math that's evil, it's mathmeticians. They refuse to feed their parrots. Why else would they say "Polly, no meals!"

Lyta · Apr 10, 2002

Originally posted by Kribu:
Of course, I admit that perhaps over here it's not as much a gender issue as it is in the US, which would explain why Lennier also thinks it's roughly equal here. 

I think you have hit on an interesting point since I do believe that in the US we tend to sterotype a lot more than in other parts of the world.

I know I am a bit of an anomaly being a woman who likes scifi, math and science but ever since high school I have had friends who have similar tastes as me (in varying degrees). I just find it hard to believe that someone can go through life -without- finding a woman who likes or tolerates one of these subjects. *shrug*

kin_of_zathras · Apr 10, 2002

Firstly, I am a geeky dork
and proud of it too!
we make more money than the rest of them
(but i haven't started working yet)

Second there's still hope for the cast of rangers,
jms knows their talents, thats why he was willing to bank on them for a 5 year series. I think they've got a good chance of getting roles in jeremiah and jms's next productions.Unlike the orginal cast , the're not carrying any baggage.
I think jms won't use Jurasik, Katsulas , etc because then the scenes wont be about the story or the character, people will just be thinking ' oh it's Sheridan on Jeremiah'

JMS speaks..

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