JMS update on Lost Tales/Feature

[Bester]

Refresh my memory; Wasn't one of the major issues with TMoS the fact that WB insisted on recasting all the main characters with better-known names?

 

[Jan]

Refresh my memory; Wasn't one of the major issues with TMoS the fact that WB insisted on recasting all the main characters with better-known names?

Yeah, but there was more to it than that, I gather. The entity who'd optioned the film and commissioned the script wasn't able to put the financial package together on his/their own and needed backing from WB for the film as well as distributorship. WB was only interested in doing it with name actors. If the original optioner had been able to put the financial package together on his/their own, WB wouldn't have had any say in the casting.

I'm sure that that's one reason that JMS is requiring complete creative control, though.

Jan

 

[Cell]

Why can't he do both? He has said all along that he would write and direct the first installment of TLT, then hand the reigns over the someone else for future installments. Therefore, his involvement in TLT would be significantly reduced.

It's called arrogance, being a control freak, and not being willing to trust anyone else to actually tell a good story. Sometimes these traits are good, sometimes they are bad, it all depends really.

I don't think it is idiotic at all ... it simply reflects how JMS' work has changed since the original agreement for TLT was made.

On top of that, I agree that he clearly went into it knowing that they were only interested in inexpensive direct to DVD releases and that that hasn't changed. However, JMS now understands exactly what can be produced at the kind of "inexpensive" they are talking about, particularly on a disc by disc basis. If, as he says (I think from Jans transcript of his panel at the con), the writing was hamstrung by how much money was available to make the thing, then that is a big issue.

Personally, I enjoyed TLT disc 1 ... not the best of B5 by any stretch but very watchable, and obvioiusly done on the cheap. I think there is a big difference between inexpensive and "done on the cheap" frankly.

So JMS has a choice ... does he devote some of his time and energies to try and put together more "on the cheap" DVDs for Warners, or does he concentrate that time and energy on developing his burgeoning movie career?

To be perfectly honest if JMS honestly believes the writing was hamstrung because of a lack of funds then that doesn't say much about him as a writer. Great writers are able to work around things like budget and still put out wonderful works. Good writers try to work around the budget, have problems with it and this the product ends up being less than stellar. Bad writers complain about the budget and say it hurts their ability to tell a story. Now, I'm not saying JMS is bad, but the idea that a budget hurts your ability to tell a story is laughable, as is the idea that somehow more money being thrown at B5 will make the stories better.

 

[Jan]

Now, I'm not saying JMS is bad, but the idea that a budget hurts your ability to tell a story is laughable, as is the idea that somehow more money being thrown at B% will make the stories better.

Isn't that kind of like saying a really talented painter doesn't need to be able to afford paint and canvas to be great? Of course the amount available to spend has an effect on both the kinds of stories that can be told and on the story itself.

Jan

 

[Cell]

Isn't that kind of like saying a really talented painter doesn't need to be able to afford paint and canvas to be great? Of course the amount available to spend has an effect on both the kinds of stories that can be told and on the story itself.

Jan

JMS has all the tools he needs to tell a great story, he is asking for better and more expensive tools as if that would somehow create a better story. A better analogy to what JMS is doing would be if he were a painter with a great brush that all of a sudden decides that he needs the next best brush or he can't work at all. It's ludicrous, just as is the idea that JMS can't tell another story in the B5 verse unless it is a huge money project. Huge money does not mean it will be good, nor does low money mean it will be bad. A good story is a good story and they flow from a writer regardless of the financial situation he finds himself in.

However an arrogant writer that has somehow developed the idea that his shit doesn't stink will blame everything on money issues instead of his ability to continue to tell compelling and gripping stories within his own creation. Or he will blame money instead his inability to actually trust other people to somehow be on the same level as he is, because I'm sure there aren't any writers out there capable of penning the putrid shit that was Infection, Survivors, The War Prayer, the recent Spider-Man, etc.. I'm still a fan of JMS, but in this case I do believe his arrogance has knocked him down quite a few pegs in my book and has made me wonder just how good of a writer he actually is when the chips are down.

 

[Bester]

There are those who believe that jms has let us down by turning his back on any future B5 TV/DVD productions now that he has made a name for himself in Hollywood.

And there are those who believe that he is simply using his new-found leverage in Hollywood in order to encourage WB to back a B5 feature.

Either way, I am just disappointed that TLT wasn't allowed to grow. I would much rather have watched a series of lower-budget stories than a larger-budget feature. It is worth remembering that the best of B5 was made on a relatively small TV budget and the characters/stories thrived in an environment where they were allowed to develop over a period of time.

 

[Jan]

Or he will blame money instead his inability to actually trust other people to somehow be on the same level as he is, because I'm sure there aren't any writers out there capable of penning the putrid shit that was Infection, Survivors, The War Prayer, the recent Spider-Man, etc..

He's had plenty of critical things to say about "Infection" from the beginning. For instance

And like I said...I have problems with "Infection" as well, so there is no flame from me. I guess part of it is knowing what was in the script that should've been carried off better, but wasn't. And part of it is my fault; I tried to use the Nelson/machine as a metaphor; it wasn't supposed to be about
the Nelson/machine, but about the kind of people who would create it, the kind of people who would sell it, and the kind of people who would confiscate it even KNOWING what it was (and of course the kind of people who would *use* it). Unfortunatly, when you put somebody in that kind of suit, that *becomes* the story, and from that point on you're pretty much doomed. It was
also in places too much an obvious metaphor, and the "hand of the author" is showing too much. It was the first script written for this season, after the long break after the pilot, and I think I was trying to find the characters' "fingerprints" and getting into the flow of the series, which took a script or two.

..and he didn't write "Survivors" or "The War Prayer". Just in the interest of accuracy.

Jan

 

[Cell]

He's had plenty of critical things to say about "Infection" from the beginning and he didn't write "Survivors" or "The War Prayer".

Jan

Hmm, I thought he did write those, my bad. But, the point still remains, he refuses to allow other people to play in the B5 verse anymore because he is supposedly worried about people not getting the story right. He's managed to not get the story right quite a few times, and he has written some truly putrid material. I would kill to see more B5 from some capable authors, or Lost Tales that is helmed by good sci-fi people outside of JMS. Despite what he may think JMS is not the only great storyteller in town, as a matter of point he hasn't been telling great stories since Crusade ended. This all boils down to me to a man that has become too big for his own britches and legitimately thinks he is some sort of awe inspiring writer. But, apparently he is an awe inspiring writer that can only work with millions upon millions of dollars pured into his projects, so not that awe inspiring in actuality.

 

[Jan]

Despite what he may think JMS is not the only great storyteller in town, as a matter of point he hasn't been telling great stories since Crusade ended.

Do you mean in general or in regards to the B5 universe? Because I think his work on "Midnight Nation", "Silver Surfer: Requiem", "Jeremiah" (especially the second season) and "The Book of Lost Souls" has been excellent. "Changeling" didn't get to be one of 20 films to compete at Cannes because it was mediocre.

But, apparently he is an awe inspiring writer that can only work with millions upon millions of dollars pured into his projects, so not that awe inspiring in actuality.

Like most sweepingly general statements, this is patently false. See above list. "Jeremiah" was obviously an expensive show to shoot given the number of location shots. The rest don't require much in the way of budget. Then you've got "The Adventures of Apocalypse Al", an audio drama which in general doesn't require a large budget. If you didn't have such luminaries as Clint Eastwood and Angelina Jolie involved, "Changeling" wouldn't require a huge budget.

On the other hand, "World War Z" is probably going to need an immense budget. See? It all depends on the story you're telling.

Jan

 

[B5_Obsessed]

Cell, you're assuming that an offer was even on thetable from WB to allow someone to take over the reigns and run with B5. I'm willing to bet it was not because no one can bring the thing in as cheaply as J. Michael Straczynski.

During the start and finish, when arc wasn't as critical to the story, Joe farmed out work to other writers, so it's not about total control. But you've got to understand that WB has been underappreciating B5 and exploiting Joe ever since that first cheap-ass DVD of "The Gathering" and "In the Beginning" came out. For the past 5 years or more, WB has been saying to Joe, let's do it cheap and see how it goes - you don't mind do ya? The guy has had his nipples twisted over his fondness for B5 for quite some time but truth be told at some point you have to tell the cheap fuckers who have netted millions off this thing,

"NO!

No more pro-bono work, no scale, no test runs, no actors who can only nod their heads because we can't afford to pay them to speak a line, and no more filming in a goddamned hot tub factory in the valley!

I for one was never really excited about "Lost Tales" because 20 minutes does not often a great story make, but when all they had to film with was two rooms and a 20 foot section of hallway with 15 extras standing around, you have to admit it looked cheap as hell.

As jms stated before, those budget dollars don't go nearly as far in 2008 as 1993, expecially when you're dealing with what is, at best, an intermittent production needed to be broken down and stored, with no ongoing contracts in effect. Not only do they want him to keep producing content, but they want to him to do it with less every time.

We know know how this always turns out: BATTLE FOR THE PLANET OF THE APES.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

War Prayer was easily the best B5 ep up to that point. It was the ep that convinced me that B5 was a cut above, and made me determined to not miss a show.

 

[Cell]

Do you mean in general or in regards to the B5 universe? Because I think his work on "Midnight Nation", "Silver Surfer: Requiem", "Jeremiah" (especially the second season) and "The Book of Lost Souls" has been excellent. "Changeling" didn't get to be one of 20 films to compete at Cannes because it was mediocre.

I haven't liked any of JMS' comic work, except for a bit of Rising Stars and some Amazing Spider-Man. Much like a lot of other TV to comic people I don't think he's ever realized how to properly use the more visual medium of comics to tell his story as opposed to writing out the pages like he's tackling a script.

Like most sweepingly general statements, this is patently false. See above list. "Jeremiah" was obviously an expensive show to shoot given the number of location shots. The rest don't require much in the way of budget. Then you've got "The Adventures of Apocalypse Al", an audio drama which in general doesn't require a large budget. If you didn't have such luminaries as Clint Eastwood and Angelina Jolie involved, "Changeling" wouldn't require a huge budget.

On the other hand, "World War Z" is probably going to need an immense budget. See? It all depends on the story you're telling.

Jan

The difference is that outside of Jeremiah none of those are JMS' own works. They are properties he is working on yes, but they are not his own work. Jeremiah cost a lot of money to make and Showtime gave him the financial backing, but the show was subpar and they thankfully pulled the plug on it. Now we are given the factual evidence that JMS has said he won't make B5 unless he is given boatloads of money to do a feature, as if that money will somehow make the film good. Good storytelling is good storytelling, and all JMS is proving to me is that I have no reason to ever bother with a creative property of his own ever again, because if it comes out subpar then clearly it will be because some network somewhere didn't give him enough money.

War Prayer was easily the best B5 ep up to that point. It was the ep that convinced me that B5 was a cut above, and made me determined to not miss a show.

Man, War Prayer doesn't even come close to Mind War as far as episodes that came before it, and it's well below Midnight On The Firing Line, The Parliament Of Dreams, Born To The Purple, and even Soul Hunter as well. The moment I watched that episode I was lost in cliche after cliche that they threw on the screen and tried to pass off as a story. Thankfully eps like Deathwalker and Believers were on the way to show me why B5 wasn't going to be a cliche ridden Trek clone.

 

[Jan]

I haven't liked any of JMS' comic work, except for a bit of Rising Stars and some Amazing Spider-Man. Much like a lot of other TV to comic people I don't think he's ever realized how to properly use the more visual medium of comics to tell his story as opposed to writing out the pages like he's tackling a script.

Are you under the impression that a comic script is substantially different from a screenplay? I've seen both sorts of scripts by him and there's not much difference at all. Perhaps for some it might be but since JMS has always 'directed on the page' there's little difference. Instead of describing action in a screenplay, for a comic script he describes pictures is all. BTW, how are comics a more visual medium? Because you have to read the dialogue rather than hear it?

The difference is that outside of Jeremiah none of those are JMS' own works. They are properties he is working on yes, but they are not his own work.

I don't understand. The only adaptation in the things I listed is "World War Z". Where do you get the idea that "Changeling", "Book of Lost Souls" or "Apocalypse Al" aren't his own work and original ideas?

Jeremiah cost a lot of money to make and Showtime gave him the financial backing, but the show was subpar and they thankfully pulled the plug on it.

Another factual error. JMS notified them that when his contract was up that he wouldn't be returning. This was made public long before all of the episodes were aired. MGM/Showtime could have found another showrunner and continued the series if they had wished. As for subpar...that's a matter of taste. I thought it was excellent. In some ways superior to B5.

Jan

 

[Cell]

Are you under the impression that a comic script is substantially different from a screenplay? I've seen both sorts of scripts by him and there's not much difference at all. Perhaps for some it might be but since JMS has always 'directed on the page' there's little difference. Instead of describing action in a screenplay, for a comic script he describes pictures is all. BTW, how are comics a more visual medium? Because you have to read the dialogue rather than hear it?

Comics are a more visual medium because they rely much more on the picture to say what is happening. In TV/Film it is more about the character relaying what is happening and the visuals help to bolster what is going on with the characters. In comics its the exact opposite, the focus is the visuals, they tell the story and the characters bolster what is being presented in the visuals. Where I think that JMS, Whedon, Smith and other TV/Film to comic writers have faltered is their over usage of words. JMS doesn't like to let the panels tell the story, instead he tries to tell the story through the word bubbles and is very dialogue heavy as a result. When he strays from this he is at his best, but for the most part he sticks with a dialogue and word bubble heavy style and that doesn't translate well to the medium of comics.

I don't understand. The only adaptation in the things I listed is "World War Z". Where do you get the idea that "Changeling", "Book of Lost Souls" or "Apocalypse Al" aren't his own work and original ideas?

Hmm, I thought they were pitches he had picked up from other people, but if I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

Another factual error. JMS notified them that when his contract was up that he wouldn't be returning. This was made public long before all of the episodes were aired. MGM/Showtime could have found another showrunner and continued the series if they had wished. As for subpar...that's a matter of taste. I thought it was excellent. In some ways superior to B5.

In that case then I'm glad JMS ended the show, because it just wasn't good. I wanted it to be good, not so much because of JMS but moreso because I do think Luke Perry is actually a very talented actor that gets a lot of crap for the 90210 days when he is much better than that.

 

[Jan]

Comics are a more visual medium because they rely much more on the picture to say what is happening. In TV/Film it is more about the character relaying what is happening and the visuals help to bolster what is going on with the characters. In comics its the exact opposite, the focus is the visuals, they tell the story and the characters bolster what is being presented in the visuals.

I have to disagree there. Something that comics can have that TV/film cannot have is internal dialogue which makes the words at least as important as the pictures. In TV/film, however, what's seen is sometimes the only information we have. Londo watching the bombardment of Narn and Delenn taking the sword from 'Arthur' are two examples that spring to mind.

In that case then I'm glad JMS ended the show, because it just wasn't good.

Just because something isn't to your taste doesn't make it bad.

Jan

 

[Cell]

Just because something isn't to your taste doesn't make it bad.

Jan

Yes, it does actually. That's how interpretive art works, if I watch something and decide it isn't any good then it isn't any good. You are entitled to think the exact opposite, but that doesn't mean it all of a sudden becomes good in my eyes. Jeremiah was a subpar show, other than Perry the acting was bad, the cinematography was good, the writing was atrocious, the stories weren't any good, etc.. You can think the exact opposite, but that doesn't make it a good show, at least in my eyes.

 

[KoshFan]

Yes, it does actually. That's how interpretive art works, if I watch something and decide it isn't any good then it isn't any good. You are entitled to think the exact opposite, but that doesn't mean it all of a sudden becomes good in my eyes.

What I believe Jan is objecting to is the way you're saying it. You say, "I don't like it; it's not good" when another person might say, "In my opinion it's no good." The way you're currently phrasing it, it sounds as if you feel that because you don't like it, no one else should... the inverse of what you're decrying.

You're quite adept at making blanket statements, Cell, and those are usually wrong (for example, I didn't say "always wrong," because that wouldn't be correct) -- or at least you sound like you're making blanket statements. Learn to qualify and clarify.

 

[Cell]

What I believe Jan is objecting to is the way you're saying it. You say, "I don't like it; it's not good" when another person might say, "In my opinion it's no good." The way you're currently phrasing it, it sounds as if you feel that because you don't like it, no one else should... the inverse of what you're decrying.

You're quite adept at making blanket statements, Cell, and those are usually wrong (for example, I didn't say "always wrong," because that wouldn't be correct) -- or at least you sound like you're making blanket statements. Learn to qualify and clarify.

I've addressed this issue before, "in my opinion" is a useless statement that should never be used by anyone when talking about an interpretive art, or anything really. When I say something I mean it and will not attach something stupid like "in my opinion" to it so that it cheapens what I am saying. If you think differently than me that's fine, you are entitled to think differently. But, I am not about to start using a phrase that I find contemptible, nor am I going to change the way I talk to suit the needs of others. All interpretive art is opinion, that is an obvious fact, and stating as such in your statement is redundant, time wasting, and not something I will engage in,

 

[Jan]

My main objection is Cell's insistance that a television series is solely an interpretive art when it's not. What Cell insists on may well be fine for judging an abstract painting where there might not be a wrong or right opinion but that doesn't hold true for TV. By Cell's way of thinking if he saw a murder mystery and 'interpreted' that the killer was X when in fact the murder was committed by Y, that incorrect interpretation would have to be afforded as much respect as the correct one. Cell has even gone so far as to assert that if the mystery writer were to say "See, this is where I seeded the clues along the way", it's meaningless unless Cell decides to accept it. Wrong. One could argue whether what the writer did was more or less effective but that's all.

"You're not entitled to your opinion, you're entitled to your *informed* opinion." All too frequently, Cell has demonstrated a sad lack of holding informed opinions. Just as Cell so often gets facts wrong, so is that definition, or should we say 'interpretation', of what TV is.

And now, as it so often does, now that the conversation has turned to Cell, it's effectively over.

Jan

 

[Cell]

My main objection is Cell's insistance that a television series is solely an interpretive art when it's not. What Cell insists on may well be fine for judging an abstract painting where there might not be a wrong or right opinion but that doesn't hold true for TV. By Cell's way of thinking if he saw a murder mystery and 'interpreted' that the killer was X when in fact the murder was committed by Y, that incorrect interpretation would have to be afforded as much respect as the correct one. Cell has even gone so far as to assert that if the mystery writer were to say "See, this is where I seeded the clues along the way", it's meaningless unless Cell decides to accept it. Wrong. One could argue whether what the writer did was more or less effective but that's all.

"You're not entitled to your opinion, you're entitled to your *informed* opinion." All too frequently, Cell has demonstrated a sad lack of holding informed opinions. Just as Cell so often gets facts wrong, so is that definition, or should we say 'interpretation', of what TV is.

And now, as it so often does, now that the conversation has turned to Cell, it's effectively over.

Jan

Like usual the conversation was over as soon as you became involved, I should have kept you on ignore. Unlike you I present plenty of informed opinions and don't just rattle off facts from interviews and other useless drivel. I choose to think critically and actually dissect what I see as opposed to making simple statements with no evidence to support them one way or the other.

As for TV as interpretive art, it is. What a creator says after the fact does not matter one iota. They put their product out there for the viewer to interpret. If they wanted to get a message across then they should have included it in the actual product for everyone to see. If they didn't then their words after the fact about what you really should have seen or interpreted are no better than the interpretation of Joe Schmo from down the street. This is basic art school stuff, Kubrick believed it, Hitchcock believed it, countless other creators and teachers believe it, and so do I. If you follow a different theory then that's fine, but I don't and I won't be governed by that theory.