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JMS update on Lost Tales/Feature
- Thread starter Jan
- Start date
hypatia
Regular
I don't have the time or patience to backread probably about 5 pages... so I'll just ask those of you who have kept up on this thread more regularly than I:
Has Cell actually given a few examples of television shows (or theatrical movies) which demonstrate his point that the ability to tell a great story [in a science-fiction, space-based backdrop] is not effected at all by the budget? Or in fact any t.v. or movie based in a place and time that is usually associated with high-budget ventures?
I seem to recall the Sci-Fi channel saying they were moving away from space-based original shows, and the primary reason for this was to save money on the budgets, wasn't it?
Of course the budget to read a story from a book to a hospital ward of people doesn't need to be massive. And as much as some of us have enjoyed joking about having more B5 stories in any form (remmeber the proposed sock-puppet format?), I'd say that short of novel form, most agreed it would be a step down for all involved. The Lost Tales was the last atempt to possibly compromise, and I would thank JMS for at least attempting it.
But loving this visual-medium-based saga, and having so many more ideas and ambitions to pursue, are certainly reasonable reasons to put the beloved series down for good.
And just who is egotistical enough to think they have the right to criticize JMS for moving on and pursuing other goals? Isn't it sad when a creative person doesn't do just that? Who is so self-centered and egotistical enough to...
Oh,
... never mind.
Has Cell actually given a few examples of television shows (or theatrical movies) which demonstrate his point that the ability to tell a great story [in a science-fiction, space-based backdrop] is not effected at all by the budget? Or in fact any t.v. or movie based in a place and time that is usually associated with high-budget ventures?
I seem to recall the Sci-Fi channel saying they were moving away from space-based original shows, and the primary reason for this was to save money on the budgets, wasn't it?
Of course the budget to read a story from a book to a hospital ward of people doesn't need to be massive. And as much as some of us have enjoyed joking about having more B5 stories in any form (remmeber the proposed sock-puppet format?), I'd say that short of novel form, most agreed it would be a step down for all involved. The Lost Tales was the last atempt to possibly compromise, and I would thank JMS for at least attempting it.
But loving this visual-medium-based saga, and having so many more ideas and ambitions to pursue, are certainly reasonable reasons to put the beloved series down for good.
And just who is egotistical enough to think they have the right to criticize JMS for moving on and pursuing other goals? Isn't it sad when a creative person doesn't do just that? Who is so self-centered and egotistical enough to...
Oh,
... never mind.
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Galahad
Regular
Well, I am fond of puns...
Some years ago, I asked you if you intended this pun, in picking your name. You replied that you did not.
Well Jade... your name always makes me question whether you are betraying a fondness for Godzilla's occasional robotic pal, Jet Jaguar.
Cell
Regular
Well, there are the two B5 episodes themselves, Comes The Inquisitor and Intersections In Real Time, that provide the best example for my point since they were done by JMS himself. Other examples would include something like The Man From Earth, as well as any number of zombie movies that are low on budget but high on storytelling. There are more, but really, the B5 episodes themselves that were made in a low budget sci-fi style are the best examples of how TLT should have been done and why there really is no need to complain about more money when all that is needed is a good story.
And just who is egotistical enough to think they have the right to criticize JMS for moving on and pursuing other goals? Isn't it sad when a creative person doesn't do just that? Who is so self-centered and egotistical enough to...
Oh,
Actually, I never once criticized JMS for simply moving on. I criticized his attitude that he can't make any more B5 unless a lot of money is behind the project. If he wants to move on he can move on, I'm not demanding in any way that he tell any more B5 stories.
KoshN
Super Moderator
Well, I am fond of puns...
Some years ago, I asked you if you intended this pun, in picking your name. You replied that you did not.
Indeed. On the old Sci-Fi Channel bulletin boards, I wanted to use KoshNaranek (my IMDb ID), but it was already taken, so I shortened it to KoshN, and then used that ID everywhere else in an attempt at standardization..
Jade Jaguar
Regular
Familiar as I am with Godzilla, I had never heard of Jet Jaguar until I clicked on your link. My handle reflects my interest in Maya archeology. Also, I didn't want to chose a B5 character's name, since I didn't want to imply that I saw my self as one of them.
Galahad
Regular
I just named myself Galahad as a nod to Marcus's describing himself as being Galahad in is B5 Round Table analogy. Not to mention the fact that as Sir Galahad is generally accepted as the perfect knight (and he didn't have the women problems his father walked into), the knight who achieved the Grail in Arthurian legend (he's my favourite character in the legends).
However... my own problems with ladies have now exponentially increases due to the fact that John Cleese chases me around everywhere declaring that I am in great peril any time I walk up to a girl!
KoshFan
Regular
Does that make your students show you more respect?
Well, no, but when they give me lip I just say "Impudent" and slap 'em telekinetically. Works pretty well, except on that Johnny kid.
I hear you.
darth_librarian
Regular
Welcome back KoshN. Hell of a come back !
Hey Cell,
Just like how politicians somehow divide us over issues we all feel the same about I think all of you have the same opinion on the TLT money subject but are focusing on a small part of someones comments and not looking at the big picture.
I thought the first story of TLT was pretty bad (I liked the second story). I agree JMS could have come up with something better for a one room affair like he did with Comes the Inquisitor butt unfortunately he had to tell a self contained story on a small budget which really limited the topics he could cover. Now if they had given him more money JMS probably wouldn't have used it to polish up the sets of the first story like you suggest but would have written an entirely new story for Lockley that wasn't confined to a single room and hallway.
So in the end could JMS have written a better first story for the money he had to work with? -- Probably but pretty difficult
Could he have written a better first story if he had more money to work with? -- Heck Yeah!
Just like how politicians somehow divide us over issues we all feel the same about I think all of you have the same opinion on the TLT money subject but are focusing on a small part of someones comments and not looking at the big picture.
I thought the first story of TLT was pretty bad (I liked the second story). I agree JMS could have come up with something better for a one room affair like he did with Comes the Inquisitor butt unfortunately he had to tell a self contained story on a small budget which really limited the topics he could cover. Now if they had given him more money JMS probably wouldn't have used it to polish up the sets of the first story like you suggest but would have written an entirely new story for Lockley that wasn't confined to a single room and hallway.
So in the end could JMS have written a better first story for the money he had to work with? -- Probably but pretty difficult
Could he have written a better first story if he had more money to work with? -- Heck Yeah!
dencor
Regular
The majority of us are in agreement.... I hope. That the budget did have an obvious effect on what stories could be told. But that said, I like the ending of the Lockley story and her affirmation that Babylon 5 is her home. But I think, we all agree the cgi fire was a bit on the corny side.
For the most part this was just a walk down memory lane and it felt good to visit Babylon 5 one more time. To bad neither JMS or WB will listen to us, the fans. We are just pawns in this game of chess. My only question is that I read they were giving JMS a $ 5 million budget for the second installment. $ 3 million more than the first. Sounds like plenty of money to me ? And lastly, if by some miracle we do get another dvd, it would be great to hear Londo yell out....Mr. Garibaldi one more time.
thanks
dennis
For the most part this was just a walk down memory lane and it felt good to visit Babylon 5 one more time. To bad neither JMS or WB will listen to us, the fans. We are just pawns in this game of chess. My only question is that I read they were giving JMS a $ 5 million budget for the second installment. $ 3 million more than the first. Sounds like plenty of money to me ? And lastly, if by some miracle we do get another dvd, it would be great to hear Londo yell out....Mr. Garibaldi one more time.
thanks
dennis
Jan
Regular
From what I could tell, there was no firm offer of $5 million for a second disk. From the way JMS told it, there was a *range* mentioned but no actual offer or negotiations took place.
Jan
KoshN
Super Moderator
No. The point is that if the tools that were available at the time the last episode of Crusade was produced, the sets, the props, the wardrobe, the CGI, the cast and crew, etc., had still been available when B5: The Lost Tales was produced, JMS would have had A LOT more story options available to him. When you take away those tools, you eliminate the possibility of doing those stories. Then, the stories that are left, those possible to do on a $2 million budget, are a couple of talking heads in a room, and THAT looks CHEAP, and that is NOT something that impresses people eight years after Crusade ended.
I already answered this above.
If he had delivered a story like "Intersections in Real Time", most people would have been underwhelmed. Such an episode is not representative of the typical B5 episode.
You keep saying the same stuff, over and over and over again. Saying it a million times, phrased a little differently each time, does not make it one whit more valid. It's STILL bunk.
The fanbase wanted to see something like they saw in the last episodes of B5 and Crusade, something of that level, both of production values and of story, something that would fill the hole left open since Crusade went down. Instead, because WB only allocated $2 million for the thing, they got a couple of 36 minute (not even 44 minute episode length) B-threads that, other than the CGI, looked like they had the production values of a high school play. It didn’t even look as good as 1998-1999 B5 or Crusade. The dead giveaway is when Lochley refers to the busy station and all we ever saw]/b] was a station that bore a striking resemblance to that seen in "Sleeping in Light" when only a skeleton crew was onboard. Show a deserted station and refer to a bustling station. That just looks CHEAP.
You are not the only person who matters here. I am talking about the B5 fanbase, the group whose acceptance of the DVD, would spell success or failure of the project. The reviews were overwhelmingly negative. People criticized the hell out of the production values (the lack of familiar sets, the deserted look of the station, the fact that both stories were little more than two or three talking heads in a room, a room which at most showed two walls. An episode like “Intersections in Real Time” is OK if it’s shown in the midst of a bunch of traditional looking B5 episodes, but not if it’s the first real B5 you got since September 1999. The two talking heads in a room episode is like the “clip show.” It’s made to save money, when a production is running short near the end of a season or so that the money saved, could be earmarked for a bigger episode. That can be forgiven when it’s among 21 or 22 other episodes in a TV season, but NOT when it’s all that you’re going to get. 99% of the B5 and Crusade episodes were NOT two or three talking heads in a room. People expected a more normal B5 episode, not a couple of 36 minute B-threads that consisted of two or three talking heads in a room.
Again, you are not all that matters. The expectations of the fanbase are what matters, and you are just a tiny, tiny percentage of that fanbase. The lack of tools limited the kind of stories that JMS could tell. Also, the time that has gone by since Crusade went down has allowed JMS to cool off, i.e. get out of the groove, and when it comes to JMS and B5, that’s a very, very BAD thing. He functions best when he’s on a hot streak, and that’s something that does NOT bode well for any one-off B5 universe project, e.g. a TV movie, a theatrical release, a B5:TLT DVD, etc. Now, if he was doing any of those projects during or immediately after the B5 or Crusade production, those one-off projects would stand a far, far greater chance of being good.
B5 never had big lavish sets and money galore thrown at it. Hell, sometimes the walls moved (Watch Trakis in "Born to the Purple."). B5: The Lost Tales didn’t even have the old, cheap B5 sets available to it. What you don’t seem to understand is that it’s all connected. The story that you can tell, and be enthusiastically accepted by the fanbase, is affected by the tools you have available to tell the story. If that stuff is gone, and you don't have the budget to recreate it, you can't tell those stories.
The blame clearly falls on WB for the loss of the existing tools, and allocating only a $2 million budget. The blame falls on JMS for not turning them down the first time.
Would have been nice?!? It would have been nice if WB had been better custodians of THEIR OWN franchise. It would have been nice if they’d:
1. Stored the old film properly instead of allowing it to suffer water damage and get eaten by rats.
2. Not lost or destroyed all five years worth of CGI (all of B5 and Crusade production, computer graphics files).
3. Not destroyed, lost or sold off two thirds of the wardrobe.
4. Not destroyed, lost or sold off almost all of the props.
5. Not destroyed almost all of the sets, including the new Crusade sets built during the first Crusade production shutdown.
The Three Stooges would have been better custodians of B5 and Crusade than WB has been!
Given the lost tools and the $2 million budget, the stories that JMS had left to tell, were not very good. Given that, he should have turned WB down.
It falls on JMS for not telling WB where to shove their $2 million budget for the first Lost Tales DVD.
There was a lot more cast in "Comes the Inquisitor" than both Lost Tales combined. It had Kosh, Delenn, Sheridan, Ivanova, Lennier, G'Kar, Vir, Corwin, Garibaldi, Sebastian and tons of extras (many, many Narn, Drazi, Humans, etc.). That station looked like it had a population explosion compared to B5:TLT.
The only thing B5:TLT had a lot of, was sparseness.
Obvious to whom? Do you think that everybody is on the internet, keeping up with all the details of the production? Even those who were keeping up with things, didn't want to believe that it'd be as threadbare as it was.
It couldn't have been any more than it was, given the resources that were available.
If a decent amount of money had been allocated to the project, JMS wouldn't have turned in that script. That was the best he could do with those resources. With more resources, he would have done something different, something that wouldn't have been so painfully cheap looking.
KoshN
Super Moderator
Cell
Regular
There's really no need for me to address your points section by section, except for to say that I completely disagree with your reasoning behind why TLT was bad. It wasn't bad because of a lack of money or resources, it was bad because it was helmed by a man who apparently can only create a good story when he is given a lot of money to work with. You can think otherwise, and that's fine, but I don't agree with what you are saying at all.
KoshN
Super Moderator
That you can say that about a guy who made B5 and Crusade on $985,000 to $1,000,000 per episode, is revealing.
Cell
Regular
Yes, and one million per episode is clearly a pittance.
It's amazing to me sometimes how B5 fans seem to live in some sort of isolated bubble world where they don't realize that the majority of sci-fi TV is made on that exact type of budget, and they are not the exception. It also amazes me how to most B5 fans that isn't a great deal of money, when it is, it's more than enough to tell any story that JMS wanted to tell within his universe, and hey, what do ya know, he did! And hey, I never held that opinion of JMS until he himself came out and said it. He is the one that came out and said that he couldn't tell a story about B5 unless he was given major money to do it, and it's amazing how this is okay with B5 fans, simply amazing, and very revealing about the fan base.
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Jan
Regular
Yes, and one million per episode is clearly a pittance.
Please show your figures, Cell. The budget figures I can find show that other SF shows have *far* greater budgets (DS9 had a a budget of 2 million per episode according to IMDb Pro. Voyager had 2.2 million. SG-1 had 1.4 million X Files 1.5 million). All of them had at least half a million more than B5 Not to mention that most shows, SF in particular often go far over budget where B5 didn't.
In the case of Lost Tales, though, there's no real comparison with the series. TLT had no head start that the costumes and sets built for a pilot would have. It also was a complete stand-alone so everything spent on it was expensed to it as opposed to sets or costumes being ammortized over a number of episodes as happens on a series.
I look forward to seeing which shows you were referring to.
Jan
