New vote for worst episode ever: Between the Darkness and the Light

[Recoil]

OK, so there are always a couple episodes people always pick when asked to name what they think was the worst episode of B5. Agreed, worst B5 is better than most stuff on TV, I'll give ya that, but I had a new revelation today. Here are some of the episodes most people pick as their worst:

1) TKO
2) Grey 17 is Missing
3) Grail

TKO a lot of people pick, and I can see why, but something about the boxing/alien respect thread I sort of liked, and the B-story with Ivanova was OK to me.
Grey 17 was really bad, but the B-story with Marcus and Neroon was also good, so in my mind, not a complete failure.
Grail, well thats one of my votes. Yea, it adds to tbe B4 mystique, but still....lot of weaknesses in this episode.

Still, I've been rewatching the series for the first time in a couple years, and the episode "Between the Darkness and the Light" jumped out at me as TERRIBLE in so many ways. I don't know how I missed it before.

Its too bad too, because it is sandwiched between two strong episodes IMO --- Endgame and Intersections in Real Time. This episode should be one of the great ones, but its far off the mark.

Also, I looked at the old discussion thread, and was SHOCKED, yes...SHOCKED that 13 out of 17 votes gave this episode an "A." I couldn't believe it. After just watching it, there were so many weaknesses in it, that it occurred to me that it could be the worst of the series.

Bad Dialogue
This episode has some of the worst dialogue in the series, and contains 2 of the top 3 cringe moments in B5 (Susan's "kick your sorry as back to Earth sweetheart" speech, and the Lyta "Sue somebody" speech --- the third being in a different episode, the Ivanova sex dance in Acts of Sacrifice).

The dialogue was just terrible. First, we have really FORCED dialogue when Franklin, Garibaldi, Lyta, and the Mars extra are in the tunnels. It is written to be light and funny, but has no place in this episode. The "Sip/Gulp" thing was sorta humorous, and it did make me chuckle, but man, when everyone walks off, and the camera remains on Lyta and she says when she gets back she is gonna "Sue somebody" then makes that frowny face and growls? Arrrggg! AWFUL! Bad writing. Bad delivery, and TERRIBLE job by the director.

The shortly afterwards, we have Garibaldi talking to the Guard to recognizes him. A little bit about "officially we are here to interrogate him, but unofficially, blah blah if you get me" and this guard just goes along with it?!? This little bit of dialogue is bad too, and it is just far, FAR too easy to talk a guard responsible for the most important prisoner on the planet out of letting him in.

Next, we go right into the scene with your next random unnamed guard who says "I dont watch television, its a cultural wasteland put there by the liberal elite" or some crap. People just dont talk like that. Another really bad scene. Forced humor has always been B5's shortcoming and this episode is chock full of it.

Then, speaking of forced, Ivanova's BRUTAL speech to the Advanced Destroyer fleet. "Negative on surrender?" "Kick your sorry ass sweetheart?" "God sent me?" Man, TERRIBLE. I know JMS is a talented writer, and while is strength is more in story, arc, and characters and he's never been a dialogue guy or a humor guy, he just came off really really really bad in this one.

Then we go to another bad Ivanova delivery --- her crash into the chunk of enemy ship. She sees this thing on the screen in front of her, and she puts both hands over her face, turns, and runs backwards....holding her hands crossed in front of her. It looks SO corny and SO bad. Again, whoever directed this episode? Fired. That entire segment was pretty far from believable. I really dont see that happening. She would have either stood there, knowing there was nothing she could have done, or dove for controls trying to change the ships direction, or simply dove to the floor, but that scampering she did was pretty lame.

It really should have been a good episode, and the ending with Ivanova and Sheridan was touching, and Marcus of course...but that last 2min scene isn't enough to save this one from my "Worst Ever" status.

I realize many people voted this one an "A" and I really gotta say....have you REALLY watched this episode without the fanboy bias? I just saw it again and it was really eye-opening to me...and then I wish my eyes weren't open at all. I always remembered the Lyta and Ivanova cringe moments, but never realized how many other scenes were poorly written, acted, and directed in this one.

Really a big dud between two great episodes....

Anyone have any new thoughts on this? Or am I just ranting here? (that last one is rethorical)

 

[KoshN]

OK, so there are always a couple episodes people always pick when asked to name what they think was the worst episode of B5. Agreed, worst B5 is better than most stuff on TV, I'll give ya that, but I had a new revelation today. Here are some of the episodes most people pick as their worst:

1) TKO
2) Grey 17 is Missing
3) Grail

You forgot "Infection" the other guy-in-a-monster-suit episode. The whole part with Sinclair vs. the Ikarran was played way over the top. It was blatantly lead-the-audience-by-the-nose with Sinclair's monologue directed at the Ikarran. Who didn't see that coming from five miles away?

TKO a lot of people pick, and I can see why, but something about the boxing/alien respect thread I sort of liked, and the B-story with Ivanova was OK to me.

I didn't mind TKO. Maybe it's a guy thing, but I've got nothing against what turned out to be more or less a "buddy episode."

Grey 17 was really bad, but the B-story with Marcus and Neroon was also good, so in my mind, not a complete failure.

Even the A-thread wasn't bad until they showed the Zarg and Garibaldi killed it in a way that is absolutely impossible. JMS' seems to have trouble doing monsters, except for "The Long Dark" (Now THAT was a well done monster. ).

Grail, well thats one of my votes. Yea, it adds to tbe B4 mystique, but still....lot of weaknesses in this episode.

Grail wasn't bad. Hell, I'd give it a 'B'.


For worst, I'd pick:

1) Believers
2) Survivors
3) any episode with Byron in it.


But "Between the Darkness and the Light" ?? No, not even close to the ones I listed immediately above.

 

[Babylon5fan07]

I just watched this episode on my own today and I find this episode to also be an A episode. Personally my opinion with the bad dialogue is very realistic. Please remember since the assassination of President Santiago..anyone and everyone has been wanting President Clark out of office. since the end of season 1 things have been getting worse to even worse non stop. First the crew had to deal with Londo declaring war on the Narns along with taking over the whole planet. Then You had the shadows coming out of hiding along with President Clark declaring martial law then everyone on B5 had to deal with Kosh2 and the whole shadow war fiasco and now as Sheridan is being dealt with Clarks people I would act the same way. For almost 3 straight years they haven't been able to catch a break with anything.

I completely get the way their dialogue was presented here. They are tired and pissed off. Susan's dialogue to me is being presented as a frusteration of her captain and everything that has gone wrong. As far as Susan hiding her face scanerio..How would anyone know how to react unless they are in that situation. The white star is being shot down like crazy. Susan is going out of her mind because of the whole situation taking Clark out of the whole picture.

Worst episode ever...far from it.

TKO and Grail are also some of my favorites.

 

[RMcD]

I agree that it does have some truly horrible dialogue, although I do find some positives in it, like the battle with the shadow-modified destroyers. And let's not forget there is some okay dialogue, like Garibaldi's 'yeah, I got a receipt from the psi-corps certifying my brain was dry cleaned' which usually makes me smile. Under the original plan, at least some of this episode would have been at the very beginning of season 5, so you start to see the characters beginning to claw their way out of the holes they'd have been in at the season 4 cliffhanger - I guess those may not be the easiest episodes to write.

My all time worst episode is actually Learning Curve, for bad acting, bad staging, being morally bankrupt and confirming a very nasty side to the Rangers (see also Rising Star).

 

[ALeafOnTheWind]

The only episode of B5 I regularly skip is Believers. Just awful.

 

[RW7427]

I like TKO and Grail!

IMO the worst ep is Intersections in Real Time.

 

[PillowRock]

IMO the worst ep is Intersections in Real Time.

There's a difference between "bad" and "no fun to watch". IiRT is a lot like such movies as Sophie's Choice or Death and the Maiden: endured more than enjoyed, but extremely good at what it is doing.

My vote for worst B5 episode always goes to Infection. It's the one that plays most like a bad wannabe-Trek episode. It aspires to be TOS episode with Nurse Chapel's old fiance Roger (the title of which escapes me at the moment), and somehow only manages to be even more over the top. (Yes, I know that this where B5 first introduces the possibility of "organic tech". That fact isn't nearly enough to redeem it.)

 

[Sindatur]

I used to hate the fight part of TKO, but, have learned to appreciate it the last couple times I've watched it. Grey 17 is redeemed by the Marcus Neroon B story. Infection, I give a little slack, since it was so early on. Grail, I never had a problem with it, myself.

I agree, Intersections in Real Time, Believers, and Comes the Inquisitor were all very good at what they were doing, but, they are my most unfavorite to watch, they are painful, because of the very dark subject matter (Comes the Inquisitor being the least diffiult of the 3 to watch, IMHO)

 

[KoshN]

I agree, Intersections in Real Time, Believers, and Comes the Inquisitor were all very good at what they were doing, but, they are my most unfavorite to watch, they are painful, because of the very dark subject matter (Comes the Inquisitor being the least diffiult of the 3 to watch, IMHO)

Oh, I LOVE Comes the Inquisitor. Sebastian's parting monologue to Sheridan was exquisite. It was delivered with just the right timing/cadence and is oh so chilling.

 

[Recoil]

Back to the episode at hand, I am still a bit surprised at how many people love this episode. I guess I should clarify why I think its one of the worst:

* I think the content / subject matter of the Episode is OK. I'd grade it a "B" I guess on it being core material to the story, some critical things happening, and some big battles.

* I think that the execution of the episode itself is worthy of an "F." Poorly written dialogue, bad direction, and lots of tackiness and cringe scenes means BAD EXECUTION on what was DECENT CONTENT.

Does that make more sense?

 

[CattCreature]

well out of that list specifically i would have to say Grey 17 is missing is my least favorite.

TKO i like. i love the beguinning when walker smith helps baldi biscuit man and he's like OMFG! XD. and the fact he wants to be the first human to do alien boxing the ending makes me smile too when the aliens are like "you will be a brother to us"

grail! omg! i love grail! simply cause it has Koshy in it eheheheh ^^;; the only thing i dont like about it is the old dude dies : (.

"people dont know what you look like under there, and well it makes them a little nervous"
"good"

i love the vorlons XD

 

[RMcD]

* I think that the execution of the episode itself is worthy of an "F." Poorly written dialogue, bad direction, and lots of tackiness and cringe scenes means BAD EXECUTION on what was DECENT CONTENT.

I think I agree with this actually, as far as BtDatL is concerned. Because it isn't really a standalone episode but a linking episode in the midst of a lot of epic ongoing arcs, it's easy to overlook the fact that when considered in isolation it is pretty poor. It's like isolating a five minute stretch of your favourite movie and discovering that it isn't up to standard.

But in general the ending of season 4 did feel rushed and a bit forced at times - I tend to forgive it because there was so much going on at the time that was cool and epic, but it did seem to lacking a little of the moment-by-moment quality and attention to detail of previous seasons, and not only in this episode.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Wwell, I liked BtDatL quite a bit. I like TKO, Grail, much of Grey 17 Is Missing, and Byron eps. Intersections In Real Time, and Comes the Inquisitor can be hard to watch, but they are fine eps. I don't think there are any bad eps of B5, just a few mediocre ones, like Believers, and Infection. The one I like least is The Illusion of Truth. It is pretty much a one-trick pony, gives us little info, and I find it rather boring.

 

[RW7427]

The one I like least is The Illusion of Truth.

I love the line about stripping Dan Randall naked and throwing him out of the airlock!

 

[GKarsEye]

* I think the content / subject matter of the Episode is OK. I'd grade it a "B" I guess on it being core material to the story, some critical things happening, and some big battles.

* I think that the execution of the episode itself is worthy of an "F." Poorly written dialogue, bad direction, and lots of tackiness and cringe scenes means BAD EXECUTION on what was DECENT CONTENT.

So... that would average out to, what, a C-?

If you wanna put something like Grail at a D or F (which I do!) than your claim that this ep is the worst ever is false.

I rule.

IIRC, pretty much all of your criticisms are on Lyta and Ivanova moments. I would suggest that it is no coincidence that they both happen to be played by crumby actors. Yes, the dialogue is weak, but like you said, JMS' strength is not casual or humorous dialogue. Fancy speeches and such is his forte.

Sheridan got some outright crap to talk in his time, but the Bruce has got charisma and talent and presence, so he can twist it into something watchable.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

I love the line about stripping Dan Randall naked and throwing him out of the airlock!

Well that touches on something else I didn't like about TIoT. I don't want to get political in this forum, but "Dan Randall" seemed to me to refer to Dan Rather. I actually like Dan Rather, although I realize that many don't. But, most who don't like him think him to be liberal, and too outspoken with his own opinions. That seems to me to be the opposite of Dan Randall, who was an apologist for a right wing administration, which Dan Rather would no doubt have attacked. I don't dislike satire for being aimed at someone I like, but I do dislike it for being way off the mark.

 

[KoshN]

IIRC, pretty much all of your criticisms are on Lyta and Ivanova moments. I would suggest that it is no coincidence that they both happen to be played by crumby actors.

<raspberries, a.k.a. Bronx cheer>

crumby? The word you're looking for is crummy, NOT that I agree with you on the applicability of the word, here.

Granted we haven't seen either Claudia or Pat do much since B5 that was any good (e.g. Claudia in the "Highlander" episode "Two of Hearts" ), but I think Claudia and Pat were usually very good on "Babylon 5" (the TV show). I find Pat's line about suing somebody very believable and in-character for Lyta, not that she was actually going to DO that. After all, it was just an expression of distraction and frustration, which Lyta was feeling at the time. Hence, it was totally believable and in-character. Ditto for Claudia. These line were expressions of frustration and the general, pissed-off mood of the character at the time. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Jan]

Well that touches on something else I didn't like about TIoT. I don't want to get political in this forum, but "Dan Randall" seemed to me to refer to Dan Rather. I actually like Dan Rather, although I realize that many don't. But, most who don't like him think him to be liberal, and too outspoken with his own opinions. That seems to me to be the opposite of Dan Randall, who was an apologist for a right wing administration, which Dan Rather would no doubt have attacked. I don't dislike satire for being aimed at someone I like, but I do dislike it for being way off the mark.

Then assume that 'Dan Randall' was simply a name that sounded 'newsman-like' and isn't based on anybody at all. FWIW, the description of that character in the scipt is: "Slick, intense, and in his late 30s or early 40s. No suggestion of a resemblance to anybody. If they'd found a femal to play that part and named her Donna Randall (which was known to happen), would you have looked for the parallel then?

We see on B5 any number of people who just go along with the status quo and use the situation to further their own goals. Remember Mr. Wells, for instance? My impression of Randall was that he was just such a person, using the jailing of the ISN anchors to get an anchoring position he wouldn't have gotten so soon if not for Clark taking over.

Jan

 

[KoshN]

Then assume that 'Dan Randall' was simply a name that sounded 'newsman-like' and isn't based on anybody at all. FWIW, the description of that character in the scipt is: "Slick, intense, and in his late 30s or early 40s. No suggestion of a resemblance to anybody. If they'd found a female to play that part and named her Donna Randall (which was known to happen), would you have looked for the parallel then?

We see on B5 any number of people who just go along with the status quo and use the situation to further their own goals. Remember Mr. Welles, for instance? My impression of Randall was that he was just such a person, using the jailing of the ISN anchors to get an anchoring position he wouldn't have gotten so soon if not for Clark taking over.

I do believe you have it surrounded, Jan.

 

[Chilli]

but I think Claudia and Pat were usually very good on "Babylon 5" (the TV show)

I can't agree, especially on Pat. I've always *liked* her, so I haven't exactly been bothered by her, but there are so many crummy performances from her on B5. Her "mutant phase" in the Gathering. Her mental battles with the Shadows Ship in "Walkabout". Anything in "The Summoning" Or "Falling Towards Apotheosis". Her entire romance with Byron. Terrible, terrible, terrible stuff. Even on Star Trek TNG, she seemed hammy in "Power Play" .. and she didn't even have a single line of dialgue.

I do have a soft spot for her, though, and as such, none of the things Recoil mentioned here bothered me. It was just B5 status quo.

Though a lot of the other things he has mentioned are, indeed, pretty weak. But it still evens out at a C or so at worst, so it still can't compete with Grail.

It is a candidate for the most over-rated B5 episode ever, though.