Re-watching Crusade

[GKarsEye]

I reported before about my first successful B5 conversion, my little sister, who totally dug Babylon 5.
Predictable behavior: she fell in love with Marcus
Unpredictable behavior: She fell in love with Lennier

So for completion's sake we're watching Crusade. I didn't buy the DVDs because I see no point in owning a half-season of a failed TV show, and the DVDs aren't widescreen and, acooring to the Luker's Guide, in the wrong order. But we already watched the first disc, so we'll just finish up in that order.

Oddly enough, before yesterday, I never saw Path of Sorrows, which is arguable the most important episode. It is the Crusade equivalent of And the Sky Full of Stars, where we learn of chunk of crucial back story relevant to the series. Using the forgiveness alien was a bit of a hokey excuse for exposition, but there it is.

Very cool seeing Psi-Corps blow up.

I vaguely remember reading something about the death of Lyta being shown on Crusade, is that true? Anyone remember which ep so I can look for it? And I also got the impression that Lennier died in the telepath war, but don't remember from where...

 

[Sindatur]

In the episode with Psycorps blowing up, Lyta was supposed to be the Teep being held captive and and being questioned, that blew themselves up. Pat Tallman apparently wanted more compensation $, then the brief amount of time onscreen warranted, so they went with another actress, and left the character ambiguous. Lennier, apparently was supposed to be running down the hallway, and Lyta was supposed to call out his name.

So, that was supposed to be Lyta's death, but isn't officially, so JMS can still bend that part of the story to his will in the future, because what was mentioned in the Teep War trilogy was so vague, it doesn't even neccessarily prove she died in the Teep War, and her death is ignored in Sleeping in Light, I believe.

 

[Jan]

Oddly enough, before yesterday, I never saw Path of Sorrows, which is arguable the most important episode. It is the Crusade equivalent of And the Sky Full of Stars, where we learn of chunk of crucial back story relevant to the series. Using the forgiveness alien was a bit of a hokey excuse for exposition, but there it is.

Very cool seeing Psi-Corps blow up.

JMS showed Path of Sorrows at the same convention that he told the 'Fairy Tale'. He said he had to fight TNT over that episode in particular because they claimed that 'nobody wants all that back-story'. Every time I watch LOST, I think of that claim.

I vaguely remember reading something about the death of Lyta being shown on Crusade, is that true? Anyone remember which ep so I can look for it? And I also got the impression that Lennier died in the telepath war, but don't remember from where...

Actually, it would have been Path of Sorrows. In an earlier draft of the script the telepath that Mattheson helps was Lyta. They weren't able to come to terms financially so the script was revised. Another character was there, too and it's implied that both died in the explosion of Psi Corps headquarters.

Jan

 

[GKarsEye]

Holy snap, that would have been awesome! Lyta going out in Crusade- brilliant. To a non-B5 fan, just some telepath rebel, but the B5 fan, a closing to an arc from that show. Damn.

What is the "Fairy Tale?"

 

[Sindatur]

What is the "Fairy Tale?"

The truth about the TNT suits and Crusade.

 

[Jan]

What is the "Fairy Tale?"

http://crusade.isnnews.net/news/mcon99_p2.shtml

The story that 'doesn't have anything to do' with what happened to Crusade. Bear in mind that the tale was told before he found out the truth.

From JMS's post on 1/30, there may be others in the future pertaining to TMoS and to the butchering of his Crusade commentary.

Jan

 

[GKarsEye]

Ah, nice story. Too bad they didn't all live happily after.

 

[Demon]

I vaguely remember reading something about the death of Lyta being shown on Crusade, is that true? Anyone remember which ep so I can look for it? And I also got the impression that Lennier died in the telepath war, but don't remember from where...

I posted this excerpt from the script to Path of Sorrows quite a while back:

"The cast list says "Lyta Alexander - TBA"

On page 25 when Matheson enters the cell it says:

"She slowly raises her head: it's LYTA ALEXANDER, looking dishevelled, dirty..."

On page 31,after the fighting starts we have:

"There's another blast, this time of sheer force, not explosives, blowing out the door to the cell, and in the smoke and ust we SEE Lyta emerge, eyes glowing brightly, a corona around her. She looks off...and in the melee we can just SEE a Minbari Ranger, but not seeing his face, fighting furiously, hand to hand, making his way to her.

LYTA
(triumphant)
Lennierrrrrrrrrr!

That's all we see as Matheson is carried away by the crowd.

71 EXT. SPACEPORT

As a shuttle rises into the air

72 CLOSER - SHUTTLE WINDOW

We can just see Matheson in the front window, co-piloting. He looks down as he senses:

LYTA
Live free, John! Find your dreams!

73 HIS POV - DOWNSHOT OF PSI CORPS CENTER

As the center is decimated in a flash of white that makes a thermonuclear detonation look like a firecracker."

 

[GKarsEye]

Goddamn, that would have kicked ass.

*sigh*

Ok, I have to get three things off my chest about Crusade, none of which is about Lyta and Lennier, which has been answered (thank you all):

1. I LIKE the music. There, I said it. And this isn't just some ordinary man's opinion on the matter- I am the resident music connosseur (even if I can't spell the fucking word), so I know what I'm talking about. It's original and cool and appropriate.

2. The look of the Excalibur is corny. It's a big space phallus.

3. My big theory: has Crusade stayed on the air and been allowed to finish 5 years, it would have been better than B5. Yeah, that's right, better.
- A bigger, more defined world to play in.
- Imagine a renegade Excalibur flying around kicking ass with help of B5 and the Rangers, a few whitestars appearing to help out, chasing down Drakhs and other baddies, uncovering conspiracies. Bad-ass.
- Gideon would be as good as Sheridan or better to watch, and I say this as a big Sheridan fan (for some reason not everyone is).
- Eilerson could betray them or something cool like that. So much potential in him.
- Dureena Nafeel as a future technomage?
- A shooting war between the Excalibur and Galen. I think it would happen. Like Sheridan and Garibaldi, some serious shit would have gone down between Galen and Gideon.
- Maybe Gideon was sent out of the Cerberus before it blew up on purpose!
- Imagine if like at the end of season 4 the crew of the Excalibur acquired the technology to allow them to use the main gun without losing power, then they'd end some major conflict with Earth/Drakh by seriously ruining some space shit up like all bad-ass like as if they were the Big Penile Death Star of Vengeance!

Ok, I didn't mean for this to become a list of potential story threads I made up, but what I'm saying is that were so much potential. The show looked slick, sounded cool (yes it did), none of the main actors were bad, and only Chambers and Matheson needed a little something here and there to make them more interesting.

Oh well.

This is why, people, you need to cancel your cable subscriptions and get a netflix account and a library account. TV can kiss my ass.

 

[PillowRock]

- Dureena Nafeel as a future technomage?

Info in the Technomage Trilogy makes this unlikely, but I did really like Dureena, and her dynamics with various members of the group.

I think that any fight between Gideon and Galen would have been centered around the Apocalypse (sp?) Box. That thing was going to turn out to be major trouble.

I always liked the music too. I'm not sure that I would necessarily listen to a CD of it with any regularity, but as a score for this show I thought that it was very cool.

 

[vacantlook]

Dureena Nafeel as a future technomage?

Info in the Technomage Trilogy makes this unlikely, but I did really like Dureena, and her dynamics with various members of the group.

If I remember correctly, jms said in a commentary on the Crusade dvds that Dureena would have come to have power much like Galen, but that the two would kind of be philosophical opposites when it came to application of that power.

I wish I could remember exactly what he said, but I remember jms saying something.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

How can you people like that music? It was just completely out of place. It sounded like tropical island music in deep dark space. It did the worst job of properly setting the mood I've ever seen out of a TV show or film. B5, now that had great music.

 

[RMcD]

I wish Crusade had continued, it sounds like all the good stuff was coming but never quite arrived.. And by now we'd have been able to look back on the whole 5 years.

The Path of Sorrows would have been compulsory viewing if it had been Lyta in that role, and Lennier had appeared, I never knew that..

I like the music in Crusade because in a way it resembles what Christopher Franke did in Season 1 - that is, it's more of a soundscape than a soundtrack, very moody, bit like what Vangelis did for Bladerunner, not as melodic as later on. But Chen never got the battles or the moments of high drama quite right, in my opinion, which isn't to say that he wouldn't have done so given more time..

I thought Crusade had a tremendous cast, every bit as good as B5, and with the inevitable chopping and changing who knows what might have happened later on (Marcus Cole?)

On the other hand, I didn't find what ended up on the screen terribly engaging. The series badly needed a longer run in than it got, coupled with the kind of benign neglect that B5 benefited from.. It just never seemed to find its feet.. even in the episodes with the grey uniforms..

Was JMS hinting at Dureena as a Vorlon?

 

[GKarsEye]

Franke was great, no question, but it was very classicist and, in a sense, safe.

Big orchestral scores for sci-fi. Ho-hum. Very nice, but so been there done that.

I would say Chen used a bit of heavy-hand in A Call To Arms, but was getting subtle enough in Crusade to make it distinctive and appropriate. Crusade, in a sense, could be considered more "alien," given the setting and the show. Melodically bent percussion done right is more contemporary and has more room for originality today than string orchestras.

No, I wouldn't listen to a CD of it, but I don't listen to scores.

 

[GaribaldisHair]

How can you people like that music? It was just completely out of place. It sounded like tropical island music in deep dark space. It did the worst job of properly setting the mood I've ever seen out of a TV show or film. B5, now that had great music.

Your opinion. Personally, I'm with GKE I loved it from day one precisely because it wasn't the usual big orchestral score thing that so often get associated with TVSF.

Franke's stuff for B5 was great, but as JMS said at the time - he wanted something different as Crusade was a different show.

And I don't normally listen to scores either, but I have the Crusade CD, and I love that too!

 

[torkste]

My favorite B5 is Crusade. There was so much potential and the written but unfilmed scripts was the point were the action really kicked in.

Yes there were somethings that became not quite logical with dates shown in episodes , dialogue looped to try to fix the mess TNT made by demanding new uniforms and messed up episode order (se other thread for my take on the "right" episode order).

But what would happened when Dureena got her sword i her 3-part episodes, the sword shown in the intro ?
What would happen after Gideon died in the beginning of season 2 and his soul/mind/essence/whatever gets transferred to the Apocayple box (that is the reasom behind the box talking with Gideons mildly distorded voice) ?
And why did (would) Dureena sword glow when near the box ?
And why do the box, the "dead Gideon", warn the living Gideon not to trust Galen ?
And so on.

Once again we would have seen that "all is not as it seems" and I think jms would have made Crusade into a truly great show.

Maybe tmos, that seems to pick up on some of the shadow-tech stuff from the unfilmed Crusade script, may lead to something that finish the Crusade story, somehow.

And if the Rangers telemovie is not yet on DVD because it is "closer" to tmos what does that mean ?
More Hand stuff ?
More Rangers ?

 

[StarForBram]

I agree. The music for Crusade was awesome.

 

[Shaal Mayan]

What would happen after Gideon died in the beginning of season 2 and his soul/mind/essence/whatever gets transferred to the Apocayple box (that is the reasom behind the box talking with Gideons mildly distorded voice) ?

Iam sure Gideon would not have died at the begining of season . At the of end of season 1 he would have been shot but if I am not mistaken he does survive to go on and find a cure for the plague with that apocolypse box causing more than a little trouble a along the way.

 

[GKarsEye]

Well this is the first I've ever heard of Gideon dying and Dureena's sword. This, and the "why are you here" opening credits and a technomage make the show-that-never-was sound really mystical and magicky.

 

[Sindatur]

Wow, it's great to hear so many people who did/do actually like the Crsade music. I too enjoyed it, even though it was a bit heavy handed. I can't recall ever seeing so many saying they liked it.