Scriptbook #15 Discussion - SPOILER WARNING

[vacantlook]

That was my impression too, PR.

 

[Chris Springob]

My impression, though it certainly bears rechecking the intro to that section, was that the version that appears was written down after the pilot and before the series went into production.

Yes, that's what it says. It's also worth noting that the only characters that are mentioned by name in that outline are Sinclair, Garibaldi, Delenn, Londo, G'Kar, Kosh, and Catherine Sakai. (Though a couple of others, like Sinclair & Delenn's son are referred to with no name given.) There's no mention of Takashima / Ivanova, Dr. Kyle / Dr. Franklin, or Lyta / Talia. My guess is that JMS wrote this outline when he knew that the actors who played Takashima, Kyle, and Lyta would no longer be available to him, but hadn't yet figured out how the replacement characters would fit into the story.

 

[vacantlook]

The biggest surprise, to me, was that the original plan did NOT have Sinclair becoming Valen. I've more or less always assumed his becoming Valen was in the plan from the beginning, but this outline states otherwise.

Was Valen even mentioned in the first season?

I think his name was mentioned only once in S1 in "Babylon Squared" in the beginning of Delenn's speech before the Grey Council-"Summoned I come.In Valen's name..."

Maybe JMS didn't want to reveal much about Valen so early in the series and he chose not to mention his name until that.

Well, JoeD80 over at jmsnews's forums posted a quote of jms's that I don't think I've ever read before. I hope JoeD80 doesn't mind me snurching his find and posting it here. It's enough to solidify in my mind that jms hadn't planned on Sinclair being Valen until part of the way through producing season one.

jms says:

Obviously I can't say much about season two plans at this time, since
doing so would destroy the intent of doing some things folks may not expect.
All I can say is that the deeper we got into the series, and the more I *saw*
the dynamics of the characters, the more I kept looking back and forth, from
the Minbari to Sinclair, Sinclair to Minbari, and thinking...hmmm...y'know
what'd be *real* neat...?

Which is all I can say on that for now...except to add that in any novel,
there's always some surprises that the author didn't plan for, and the key is
to be open to that.

 

[hypatia]

That is just so incredible. I've always just assumed it was actually a core concept in his formation of B5 and the Minbari/Human connections.

It is amazing how the mind works, isn't it?

 

[KoshFan]

The subconscious is probably the most powerful tool the writer has. Terry Pratchett once said that he had all his good ideas almost immediately after waking up (wisecracking that his brain was probably on timeshare and a genius used it while he was asleep).

Joss Whedon also created the best character in fiction as a short-lived character, brought the character back due to popular demand, and began building a redemption arc for him... but on close examination, you realize that this character's arc actually starts in the second or third episode we see him in, well before Whedon consciously decided to rehabilitate the fiend.

I know in my own writing that I've often stumbled across things that I never meant to be there, but work beautifully all the same.

 

[Lousy_Dodgers]

Two questions for those with the script books:

1. According to the original outline, would Sakai have pretty much followed Anna Sheridan's path? Or would she have been removed from the picture in another way? As a follow up, would Sinclair have gone to Z'Ha'Dum too? Without the Chaos/Order dynamic, the whole need to learn what the war was really all about does not seem like it would have been as important.

2. Any major changes in the fight against Clark storyline?

 

[Jan]

Two questions for those with the script books:

I'm away from my book right now but I can answer generally.

1. According to the original outline, would Sakai have pretty much followed Anna Sheridan's path? Or would she have been removed from the picture in another way? As a follow up, would Sinclair have gone to Z'Ha'Dum too? Without the Chaos/Order dynamic, the whole need to learn what the war was really all about does not seem like it would have been as important.

As far as I can tell, it would have been a different arc for Sakai. We don't know how it happens but Sakai's memory is taken away leading to Sinclair and Delenn growing close. The Shadows don't seem to be identified as such until later in the series.

2. Any major changes in the fight against Clark storyline?

Again, we don't have any details since it's only an (about) 8 page outline but while there is a fight against Earth, Clark isn't mentioned by name. That's not to say that he or a character like him wasn't planned but it seems that the battle with Earth would likely be for very different reasons.

Jan

 

[vacantlook]

Two questions for those with the script books:

1. According to the original outline, would Sakai have pretty much followed Anna Sheridan's path? Or would she have been removed from the picture in another way? As a follow up, would Sinclair have gone to Z'Ha'Dum too? Without the Chaos/Order dynamic, the whole need to learn what the war was really all about does not seem like it would have been as important.

2. Any major changes in the fight against Clark storyline?

Sakai was never intended to have the Anna Sheridan arc. In the story that we got, the Shadows had been woken up before season one began, so Sakai would've never been among those that woke up the Shadows like Anna was. As for the outline in the scriptbook, Sakai was going to be "mind raped" causing her to lose all her memories of her relationship with Sinclair. Sinclair wouldn't have the heart to put her through the experience again in order to restore her memories, so he just lets go of her; this is when Delenn makes her move on Sinclair and they end up together and having a child. Sakai's story and Anna's story are two completely different stories.

Z'ha'dum is not mentioned in the outline. The war with the Shadows in the outline seems slower with the resolution of that conflict not happen in Babylon 5 but instead happened in the idea for a spinoff called Babylon Prime. The chaos/order dynamic isn't mentioned at all in the outline. The only description of the nature of the conflict between the Shadows and the Vorlons in the outline is that the Shadows are fighting to free worlds of the Vorlons' influence but doing so with the desire to rule everything themselves.

Clark is not mentioned at all in the outline -- I can't remember a civil war between Earth factions either. Babylon Prime would've had Earth against Sinclair because they've been given information to make them believe that Sinclair is a traitor.

 

[vacantlook]

Look at me and Jan having posted at the exact same time!

 

[Jan]

Oh, gee...that *never* happens! GMTA,

Jan

 

[Lousy_Dodgers]

Thanks for the answers.

I remember JMS cautioning against assuming Sakai could somehow be a stand in for Anna, but I was still curious since I knew that something would have to happen to get her out of the way. Does the outline give any indication of who was responsible for wiping her memory? I know the outline is vague on how it happens so that probably means it is silent on who is responsible but I wanted to ask just the same. It seems like it would probably be someone from Psi Corps, but it could have been a real twist if Delenn was behind it to create an opening with Sinclair. That does seem unlikely but it would have been really interesting story wise.

Based on what people have said though, I think I have to agree that I like the way the show turned out much more than this outline. It seems like many of my favorite elements do not appear in this outline. Beyond the absence of the philosophical nature of the Shadow War, I do not think a Sinclair/Delenn romance would ever have resonated with me as well as the Sheridan/Delenn match. Granted, JMS would likely have built the relationship over time as he did with Sheridan and Delenn, but I am still not convinced I would buy it as much. I know it is hardly an objective analysis but I thought Sinclair and Sakai worked well as a couple. There was something about two people finally "getting it right" after all those years that resonated with me.

 

[hypatia]

I should just let you wait and let someone who knows answer your questions. But I won't.

I'm not sure, but I seem to recall someone at the board saying Sakai was originally going to be Psi Corps "control" personality, or whomever the spy was. Talia became that instead of Ivanova because the actress playing Talia wanted to leave the show anyway. But originally-originally, it was to be Sakai who was the unaware traitor.

Uh, don't quote me on that, and I'm sure someone will come along and correct me, or confirm it, soon enough (some folk don't get here on the weekends). I could be way off, since I don't follow the B5 discussion as closely anymore.

 

[Cell]

The original "traitor" was supposed to be Laurel Takashima. Whether it was from an implanted personality I don't know, but originally she was supposed to be the one responsible for letting the Minbari assassin on the station in The Gathering, as seen when the assassin opens a door and it reads Takashima's key card as the one accessing the door. She was also supposed to be the one to shoot Garibaldi in the back, but of course all of this was changed when she wasn't continued on after the pilot.

 

[hypatia]

Thanks, Cell. So I was wrong. :alienblush:

Yea, she'd have more information, too, and a much easier time getting into places and doing what she'd need to do.

 

[vacantlook]

B...I know it is hardly an objective analysis but I thought Sinclair and Sakai worked well as a couple. There was something about two people finally "getting it right" after all those years that resonated with me.

Me too. I loved seeing Sakai pop up in the To Dream In The City Of Sorrows novel. The idea that Sinclair and Sakai had had such difficulty truly committing to each other for so long, and then for them to finally get to that point and then have themselves lost to each other thanks to the events of To Dream...: it's resonates with me so much more than had Sinclair and Delenn gotten together.

 

[Jan]

Does the outline give any indication of who was responsible for wiping her memory? I know the outline is vague on how it happens so that probably means it is silent on who is responsible but I wanted to ask just the same. It seems like it would probably be someone from Psi Corps, but it could have been a real twist if Delenn was behind it to create an opening with Sinclair. That does seem unlikely but it would have been really interesting story wise.

It's described that Sakai lost her memory due to a 'mind rape' and that, in order to restore her, Sinclair would have to do the same to her again. I wondered if Dust might have been involved, given that description.

Jan

 

[Chris Springob]

Z'ha'dum is not mentioned in the outline. The war with the Shadows in the outline seems slower with the resolution of that conflict not happen in Babylon 5 but instead happened in the idea for a spinoff called Babylon Prime. The chaos/order dynamic isn't mentioned at all in the outline. The only description of the nature of the conflict between the Shadows and the Vorlons in the outline is that the Shadows are fighting to free worlds of the Vorlons' influence but doing so with the desire to rule everything themselves.

IIRC, according to the outline, there really isn't any open warfare against the Shadows until Babylon Prime. In the series proper, you just have the Shadows manipulating the Centauri and other races, but they don't attack openly as they started to do in "Interludes and Examinations" in the real show.

Also, IIRC, in the series treatment (or maybe it was the B5 writers' bible?) that's in Book 15, JMS explicitly says that "the war that this is leading up to won't actually be shown in the series". My own irresponsible speculation on this point (and what else is the internet for if not irresponsible speculation?) is that JMS simply didn't believe that a lot of the stuff he'd ideally like to show could ever be visualized on the kind of budget he would have. So all that expensive war-fighting stuff in the series was shunted off into a hypothetical spinoff series that would only be made if B5 was a big hit (and thus the spinoff might have a bigger budget).

At some point, he would have realized that he *could* visualize what he wanted on the budget he had, so much of the Babylon Prime story was folded into B5. Not clear when this happened....assuming my interpretation is even correct in the first place. In any case, this probably would have happened even if O'Hare had stayed on. I simply don't believe that the outline in Book 15 is "what would have happened if Sinclair had stayed". There are too many deviations from the story we got that have nothing to do with the identity of the lead character. I assume a lot of that stuff would have been changed anyway.

Clark is not mentioned at all in the outline -- I can't remember a civil war between Earth factions either. Babylon Prime would've had Earth against Sinclair because they've been given information to make them believe that Sinclair is a traitor.

Clark isn't mentioned in the outline *by name*, but it is mentioned that the EA president is assassinated, and is replaced by someone who's not so sympathetic to B5, and is in league with Psi Corps.

While Psi Corps is said to be pulling the strings, and Psi Corps is said to be a nefarious organization, the outline doesn't say anything about the Earth Alliance turning into an Orwellian police state (as we got in the actual series), or an Earth Civil War. As you say, Sinclair ends up being at odds with the Earth Alliance solely because they've been given information that leads them to think he's a traitor. There's no mention of any larger reason than that.

 

[vacantlook]

IIRC, according to the outline, there really isn't any open warfare against the Shadows until Babylon Prime. In the series proper, you just have the Shadows manipulating the Centauri and other races, but they don't attack openly as they started to do in "Interludes and Examinations" in the real show.

There was a major Shadow attack against a giant -- "hundreds of miles long" -- Vorlon ship. But that was going to be done covertly by the Shadows so that Earth could be blamed for the resultant "hundreds of thousands of Vorlon deaths", so yeah no full-on war until BP. I kind of would like to have seen such a scene, personally. The Vorlon ship so huge sounds intriguing.

 

[Lousy_Dodgers]

There was a major Shadow attack against a giant -- "hundreds of miles long" -- Vorlon ship. But that was going to be done covertly by the Shadows so that Earth could be blamed for the resultant "hundreds of thousands of Vorlon deaths", so yeah no full-on war until BP. I kind of would like to have seen such a scene, personally. The Vorlon ship so huge sounds intriguing.

That would seem to show the Vorlons as weaker than they ended up in B5. It really does not seem feasible to blame humans for the destruction of a Vorlon ship. Maybe the Shadows could frame the Minbari but the Humans?

 

[vacantlook]

That would seem to show the Vorlons as weaker than they ended up in B5. It really does not seem feasible to blame humans for the destruction of a Vorlon ship. Maybe the Shadows could frame the Minbari but the Humans?

Earth wasn't going to be blamed for the destruction directly but for conspiracy, when the real conspirators were Londo and the Centauri. At this point Earth and the Centauri had undergone a falling out due to the Centauri claiming the area of space around B5 belongs to the Centauri, so Londo wouldn't have a problem with framing Sinclair and the humans for what he himself did with the Shadows.