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Suggestion: Change our expectations

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GKarsEye:
ok, bakana, so they have the sets. It's a minor point. Most of the movie doesn't happen on the station, if I'm not mistaken. Let's not get hung up on these little details.

Ok, I probably shouldn't have used Dune as an example, as I have not yet read it. But my point is still valid. The last book in the Wheel of Time series, for example, was not as good as the two that came before it. But that's OK.

Was every Star Wars movie better than the one before it? What about every Led Zeppelin album?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You know, this is *really* the best way to sell a new series:

"Come on over, folks... It's not as good as the first two - but really, it's not supposed to be."

Logic is a harsh mistress... I see it's eagerly avoided here...



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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> You know, this is *really* the best way to sell a new series:

"Come on over, folks... It's not as good as the first two - but really, it's not supposed to be."

Logic is a harsh mistress... I see it's eagerly avoided here... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Well, most of us here Are expecting it to be as good as, if not better than, the first two.

You, OTOH, seem determined to convince us that it will Fail.

So, who is not only avoiding logic but actively using Illogical arguments??



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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bakana:

Well, most of us here Are expecting it to be as good as, if not better than, the first two.

You, OTOH, seem determined to convince us that it will Fail.

So, who is not only avoiding logic but actively using Illogical arguments??

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ummm... you.

The only thing I am convinced of is that LOTR in no way lived up to *my* epxpectations - and, it seems, the expectations of the others who have seen it and posted here. Regrettable? Yes. Disappointing? Yes. True? Yes.



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Time to jump into the fray once again with my meager 2 cents...

The general sense I get from all the posts here is that there is one prevailing feeling, hidden slightly submerged: that LotR is "more B5", for lack of a better way of phrasing it. We're all saying, "Look, The Gathering was bad, but look how the series turned out", and saying whether the makeup/races are the same, the FX, etc, etc, etc. All these things we keep saying, positive and negative, all seem to revolve around the idea of holding up LotR to the standards of B5.

IMHO, this is the wrong thing to do.

Despite the "Babylon 5" part of the title, LotR (both the movie and the eventual series) is an entirely new, stand-alone series. Yes, there will be ties to B5. Yes, there will be tidbits dropped in here and there for us. Yes, the universe itself is the same. But it's not the same story, not the same characters, and doubtless to be the same *style*. JMS has said repeatedly that he is done with B5 (barring any theatrical movie), that he didn't want to do another B5. Crusade, in a way, had the problem that it had too many ties to B5--not only did we see B5 several times in the meager 13 episodes produced, but Lochley was a recurring character. We were still in the B5 story more or less, just flashed forward a few years and moved the camera a bit to the left.

I believe that this, plus the intense desire for more B5, is coloring everyone's view of the new upcoming movie. Glen's recent post compared the movie at one point to the best episodes of B5, which I don't doubt we'll all have a tendency to do once we all see it in January.

In a way, though, they're apples and oranges. JMS has stated that he doesn't want to do another B5. From what we've seen and heard of LotR, it's definitely *not* going to be another B5. So why should we bother trying to compare the two?

Am I saying that we shouldn't expect the same quality of production and writing? No. However, when we *do* compare the two, we have to make sure it's done purely by that quality of writing and production, not by the story that is told or the political slants or lack thereof or whatnot. Many of us have made the point that you cannot really compare B5 and Star Trek because they're simply a different story (or stories) and a different way of approaching the storytelling. I say treat LotR in the same vein.

My suggestion/plea to everyone: let us all look at the new movie in the light of a brand-new series without any ties at all to B5. Forget that we know who G'Kar is. Forget that we know what Minbari are or the Rangers or the Shadows or the Earth Alliance or anything that we've learned from B5. Watch the movie and enjoy it (or criticize it) as its own piece, its own beginning, as if we had never heard of JMS before January.

I, for one, believe that those of us who do so will be very pleasantly surprised and entertained. Let's not forget that JMS is a storyteller, not a B5 storyteller, and let's watch and enjoy LotR as such. I think JMS deserves at least that much.

{gets off his soapbox}. OK, you can go on about your business now. I'm done ranting. :)

--mcn
 
(Note: Please excuse me if the above post doesn't make much sense; it made perfect sense when I thought of it, but lack of sleep and food kinda jumbled a few things. Hopefully I got my point across tho.... :~)

Cheers,
-mcn
 
GKarsEye, I'm duly impressed.
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When did you forsake chaos and become the Voice of Reason?
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A pilot is shot to demonstrate the potential and viability of a series.

I still think it's gonna be great fun, though.
laugh.gif


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"We are (not) all Kosh."
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tobias Clutch:
You know, this is *really* the best way to sell a new series:

"Come on over, folks... It's not as good as the first two - but really, it's not supposed to be."

Logic is a harsh mistress... I see it's eagerly avoided here...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe you misunderstood. I was referring to the movie, not the series. The series, if it happens, should be of as high quality as B5 and what Crusade would probably have been. The movie, however, is just one thing, and need not be superior to the better B5 eps (which it won't be, because the best B5 eps are so due to the arc, which doesn't exist yet with Rangers).

With the examples I gave, the overall output of the artists did generally get better or at least remain to be of quality. However, not every single item within the artists' bodies of work was superior to the last, which seems like what you are expecting, and it is this which I contend is unrealistic.

How's that for logic.

smile.gif


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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by taichidave:
GKarsEye, I'm duly impressed.
smile.gif


When did you forsake chaos and become the Voice of Reason?
shocked.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol
Am I a Vorlon or a Shadow?
crazy.gif
smile.gif


When I'm just messing around, I like to breed chaos and stir up a little trouble. However, when shite needs to go down, I takes of business.
cool.gif


Honestly, there are enough intelligent people on these boards that if something needs to be said, it will often be said by someone else, so y'all usually don't require the help of the mighty GKarsEye.
smile.gif


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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
 
I think we should all just be thankful B5 will live on in LOTR and the series(hopefully) to follow!! I agree this movie may not live up to our(as B5 nuts) expectations but if it generates the support of new watches then we will get the series and the storey arcs we crave.

Look at what First contact did for Trek, People who didnt know a phaser from a tricorder could sit down watch it and enjoy it, they then went on to look at Trek as something more then a show for a few die hard loons!! It brought new watchers in,B5 needs to do the samething if its to grow as LOTR the series.

So we have to scarafice ourselves in order to save ourselves. Well thats my take on the movie pity i want see it for 6 months at least in Australia.

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I see a recurring qualifier in a good majority of the posts here, and I wanted to address it in the context of the various LOTR reviews.

The misconception I speak of is the belief that "it's a pilot... it's not supposed to be as good as the series... that's where they'll work their problems out and we'll see true genius."

Bollocks.

The pilot should be the very best episode you can possibly produce at that point. On a series treading in virgin territory, that may be somewhat marginal. However, JMS has B5 and Crusade behind him - he should not be making the same mistakes made in past pilots (I mention this since people persist in bringing up The Gathering). Fundemental things like set design, make-up effects, photography, and above all else *writing* should not be as glaringly off as they are in LOTR. Joe has worked in this universe for eight years now... Eight years... So many "pilot" excuses simply should not apply to someone with that kind of time in the "sandbox".

Over the years, it has never ceased to amaze me how B5 fans - while often the most intelligent of sci-fi fans - tend to also be the most dogmatically fanatical.

Remember... Joe has always had his own agenda at heart - as all creative people do in the industry - and people should take his statements with the same grain of salt they might take, say, TNT's.

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Never Mind the Bollocks Tobias this is the Rangers.

It IS a new show with NEW characters that will take time to explore. Not even JMS can circumvent that. Hell, finding out about the characters should be part of the fun or have you forgotten that fun is what this is all about?




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The argument Tobias makes has been made before when talking about Crusade, and it is flawed.

Creating for the same universe gives you very little. All it really gives you is a back story to draw from. A new show requires new characters, new makeup, new sets, etc. Mistakes will be made.

Have you ever read a series of novels (like Wheel of Time, Dune, or Foundation)? Was each book always better than the last one? If a writer made some mistake in the first book, did he always avoid it later? Of course not, it just doesn't work that way.

A writer must "get to know" about his or her characters. I'm not a writer myself, but this is what a lot of fiction writers, including JMS, say. If this is true, would JMS, or whoever wrote the movie, be expected to know all of the characters? As an example, I think JMS had different plans for Garibaldi when the show started, but as he "got to know" and understand the character, he realised that Garibaldi had to go a different way. If this example isn't true (I could be wrong here, I'm working off of my crummy memory), then there are plenty of others: Ivanova, Vir, and certain aspects of Londo were altered to fit the characters as they developed.

As far as sets and makeup and the like, we can only wait for it. But these things aren't that important. I know, blasphemy at a sci-fi fan site, but I contend it to be valid. Just watch original Trek to see my point. This is also the kind of thing that would improve in a series. They have to get the right "look" for the show, which would be a different look than B5, and thank god for that. Rangers shouldn't be a nostalgia trip.

Tobias is certainly correct in stating that JMS has his own agenda and that we should take what he says with a grain of salt. Obviously he is pro-JMS. In the end, it doesn't matter what he, or anyone else says (except me, what I say is important
tongue.gif
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), it matters what he does.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by westtim:
Never Mind the Bollocks Tobias this is the Rangers.

It IS a new show with NEW characters that will take time to explore. Not even JMS can circumvent that. Hell, finding out about the characters should be part of the fun or have you forgotten that fun is what this is all about?




<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Everyone else has... Including Joe.


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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GKarsEye:
The argument Tobias makes has been made before when talking about Crusade, and it is flawed.

Creating for the same universe gives you very little. All it really gives you is a back story to draw from. A new show requires new characters, new makeup, new sets, etc. Mistakes will be made.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, considering it's the same make-up, the same basic effects, the same basic sets, some pre-established characters and organizations, and - hmmm - the same writer/creator...


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What Capt. Neville said.

Comparing the LOTR pilot to any of the great B5 eps is doing it a huge disservice.

The best episodes in B5 in my opinion were the ones that brought the ongoing story arcs or threads into some kind of focus or climax. The pay-off was there because of the build up. The throughline.

How can you take say 'Severed Dreams' out of context and use it as a benchmark for TLaDiS?

You can't and you shouldn't.

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tobias Clutch:
I see a recurring qualifier in a good majority of the posts here, and I wanted to address it in the context of the various LOTR reviews.

The misconception I speak of is the belief that "it's a pilot... it's not supposed to be as good as the series... that's where they'll work their problems out and we'll see true genius."

Bollocks.

The pilot should be the very best episode you can possibly produce at that point. On a series treading in virgin territory, that may be somewhat marginal. However, JMS has B5 and Crusade behind him - he should not be making the same mistakes made in past pilots (I mention this since people persist in bringing up The Gathering). Fundemental things like set design, make-up effects, photography, and above all else *writing* should not be as glaringly off as they are in LOTR. Joe has worked in this universe for eight years now... Eight years... So many "pilot" excuses simply should not apply to someone with that kind of time in the "sandbox".
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fine. You say set design, make-up effects, photography, and above all else *writing* are glaringly off in LOTR. Is there anything that can be done about it now? No. So, what's the point of your post? What are you trying to accomplish? Are you trying to do your little part to ensure that nobody watches in January? Are you trying to stamp out the last glimmer of the B5 universe? It sure as hell seems like you are. So, I ask again: What's the point of your post? What are you trying to accomplish?

If TLaDiS is as bad as you say, when January comes around, nobody will like it, and the series will not get made. Then, the Babylon 5 Universe will be dead and in the ground, and you can dance on the grave.

I, for one, am completely fed up with this bullshit (not B5, your posts).

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KoshN
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Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 2002 on The Sci-Fi Channel. http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

[This message has been edited by KoshN (edited October 24, 2001).]
 
I don't think that the B5 universe is ncesarily dead in the water if the Rangers movie doesn't fly. Please excuse the comparison, but Star Trek managed to retain a loyal following for almost 20 years with no new series being made, and only the occasional movie of variable quality. And there was no Internet back then! B5 has five seasons, and four movies - of variable quality - and a spin-off [albeit a short-lived one] to go on with.

And the original pilot for B5 wasn't so great - I almost didn't go on to watch the series. And it took me almost a full season to really figure out what was going on. Yes, I would like to see a new B5-related series as much as anyone else - but I'm probably gonna have to wait three years to even see the Rangersmovie! B5 isn't exactly high profile here!

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KoshN, chill. I doubt Tobias is trying to prevent us to watch the movie. This is a site dedicated to the Rangers movie and possible series, which includes opinions and information. Tobias, having seen it, is giving us that, from his point of view. This sort of thing should be encouraged.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
 
Apparently, we only encourage positive opinions. Everyone praised the first illiterate retard who posted the positive review, but we've been extra tough on these guys.

Tobias and Pike got the scoop. If they had liked it more, they would've said so. They have issues with it. When it is your turn to see it, you might or you might not have those same issues.

If January comes and you don't like the film, do we get to hurl stones at you or silence your opinion?

Tobias's opinion is not going to prevent anyone in this forum from watching it, that's for damn sure. WE GOTSTA SEE! So don't worry about it.



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"When something we value is destroyed, we rebuild it. If it's destroyed again we rebuild it again. And again, and again, and again. Until it stays. "
~Jeffrey Sinclair
 
Yes, Tobias has a right to his opinions, but that doesn't mean I like them! I feel like KoshN does--I don't want the B5 universe to just die. Every time you turn around, something negative or bad happens where B5 is concerned. If it didn't happen so much, I wouldn't care at all about the bad reviews where B5:LR is concerned. But I've been through losing Crusade, the end of the fan-club & magazine, and other things all B5 fans know all about. While all this happens, Trek thrives. I couldn't even complete my VHS-tape collection because WB quit releasing them. Who knows what will happen with the DVDs. The AICN reviewers are dealing with B5 fans who are feeling a bit touchy because of all the crap that has happened over the past few years. That's why some of us don't like the AICN review by Chris Pike or the opinions being given by people like Tobias. Sorry, but that's how some of us feel.

Tammy

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"We're in here! Can anyone hear us?"
"I hear you." [giggle, laugh]
"In here!"
"We are here." [giggle, laugh]
-- Londo and G'Kar in Babylon 5:"Convictions"

Tammy's Station
http://community.webtv.net/gkarfan/TammysStation
 
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