The evil of Alfred Bester

Lyta · Nov 17, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mr. Bester:
How do you know that humanity "will come to its senses"? Humans could have wiped out the teeps or the teeps could have wiped out humanity. I'm hoping for the latter.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I found this statement really quite amusing and I hope you meant it in that way.

First, I thougth humans = teeps? Just because someone is telepathic, it makes them somehow non-human?

Second, I find it hard to believe that either group of people would wipe out each other. Did you see Deconstruction of Falling Stars? I saw quite a few humans 1000 and 1 million years from now.

Then, did you see Crusade? I think JMS was trying to show the how teeps -can- integrate into "normal" society ... and this was after the Teep War.

Anyway, I find it really interesting that we can debate so many things in B5 long after the show has been over.

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Monica Hübinette | Seattle, WA | Send a Warm Fuzzy!
They knocked down two tall towers. Graft now their echo onto your spine. Become girders and glass, stone and steel, so that when the world sees you, it sees them. And stand tall. Stand tall. --JMS (Amazing Spider-Man #36)

**DONOTDELETE** · Nov 17, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>JMS concept isn't wholly dark in that respect. Eventually telepaths and normals were integrated as one, granted in 1000 years time or 10000000 years time at the latest.

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How do you know that? I mean we were never shown any evidence of what happened to the telepaths in Deconstruction.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I may assure you, his vision is much more optimistic. The Minbari didn't need a million years for peaceful co-existance with their telepaths.

If they ever had something like a guild of telepaths, their society has essentially prevented all conflict based on mind-reading abilities. They have other faults, other weaknesses, other internal tensions... but they have avoided this one.

The Humans of Babylon 5 have the fault of preferring segregation, hatred and eventually a war... while other races wonder why they are doing this to each other.

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Approximate quote: if some would be able to read another persons' dirty thoughts, they would never get along with these people...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

False. Their way to getting along would be simple -- admitting that they too have dirty thoughts, but want to be judged by their actions. They can control their thoughts, choose their deeds -- as can others. Therefore they would learn blocking out others' thoughts and judging them by actions.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>define evil<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Watch as I do. Evil is what you wouldn't want done to yourself. Simple and clear. This definition creates problems if a person is masohistic or suicidal, but is the best definition... in most cases.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>how much hope do you have for humanity<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All sentient beings are inherently erratic. Fortunately they are all able to notice and correct their errors, and achieve relatively peaceful co-existance -- when given the right circumstances.

Our task is to study ourselves, learn to create and maintain the circumstances in which we can strive for life, peace and understanding. Ironic as it is, some occasions demand that such circumstances be defended, that life be defended with death, that fire be fought with fire.

On such occasions we muct learn to double the amount of doubt we have in our decisions -- for these are the occasions when our kind usually forgets objectivity and slides down the slippery slope.

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Bester was evil. He did not do what he would have wanted done to himself. He could not imagine himself as another teep, as a mundane, nor as a member of any other species.

To be insane, he must have thought that mundanes wanted to be violated, that other species wanted to be scorned, that fellow telepaths wanted him to deny them freedom of choice. He did not think so, thus was not insane.

He did to mundanes what he would have found disgusting - if he had ever tried to imagine himself as a mundane. And many mundanes did to telepaths what they would have found disgusting, had they imagined themselves as telepaths. It all boils down to understanding. One must try to understand others. There is your side of the sword, their side and objectivity -- which tells that we are all one.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited November 17, 2001).]

Mr. Bester · Nov 17, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lyta:

Second, I find it hard to believe that either group of people would wipe out each other. Did you see Deconstruction of Falling Stars? I saw quite a few humans 1000 and 1 million years from now.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, but a lot can happen between the events after the great burn and humanity's evolution to the First One stage. I mean it's 990000 years plenty of time to wipe out species or committ mass genocide. We don't know if the teeps wiped humans off the earth and became the First Ones or if the humans wiped telepaths off the planet and then reacquired telepathy and became First Ones.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Then, did you see Crusade? I think JMS was trying to show the how teeps -can- integrate into "normal" society ... and this was after the Teep War.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did you read the psicorp trilogy? It says in the end how the new psicorps reinstated the programs of the old corps and during Bester's trial he hints that telepaths and humans will eventually have a final showdown.

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A_Ranger · Nov 18, 2001

AngelSummners,

After your last past I understand better what you meant. Before, I thought you meant that no war or prejudice would happen if telepaths emerged. But I must say I do agree that after many problems, eventually we would overcome it (though it would talk a while)
Anyway... I got kinda heated debating back and forth with you, but hey, you can't have synthesis without conflict. It has been a nice debate, and I think I'll bow out now(these things have a tendency to jsut go on and on and on) Have a nice day everyone

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We're all born as molecules in the hearts of a billion stars, molecules that do not understand politics, policies and differences. In a billion years we, foolish molecules forget who we are and where we came from. Desperate acts of ego. We give ourselves names, fight over lines on maps. And pretend our light is better than everyone else's. The flame reminds us of the piece of those stars that live inside us. A spark that tells us: you should know better. The flame also reminds us that life is precious, as each flame is unique. When it goes out, it's gone forever. And there will never be another quite like it

bakana · Nov 18, 2001

Part of this argument is ignoring the fact that not ALL telepaths are capable of reading minds.

Ivanova carried the telepath gene but never showed ANY ability with anyone except her mother.
There are undoubtedly thousands, if not millions of telepaths in her same situation.
IOW, it's not Just a single gene.
It's a complex of several that are probably spread out through the entire human race.
If not immediatly, then within a couple hundred years at the most.

The Vorlons would have arranged it that way.
They know that the gene complex is very valuable to the race's Future, so they would have made sure it was a Dominant.

PsyCorps is made up of those individuals who were (un)lucky enough to get the entire gene complex Earlier than average.

It's a lot like the gene complex for skin color. As various groups mix, skin color is gradually becoming more homogenous.
"Black" people today are not, in general, as dark as their g,g,g,greatgrandparents 150 years ago.

In another couple hundred years, it'll take a DNA test to determine who is who. By which time, if we haven't managed to commit mutual suicide, no one will CARE.
Because almost everyone will have a bit of everything in them.

Do the math:
2 parents, 4 grandparents, 8 Greats, etc.
Assuming roughly 20 years per generation, going back 200 years you have 1024 ancesters.
300 years, 32,768 etc.

Anyone want to bet the "racial" mix is going to stay "pure" without a Nazi style regime to try to enforce it?
Anyone want to bet that, If we HAD such a regime, it would Fail in the effort?

Read the history of New Orleans. They ended up with at least 8 different words to describe the varying amounts of white/black mixture in the people walking the streets.
Some parts of South America have even More words TODAY to distinguish between Spanish/Indian/Black/Asian mixtures.

Somehow, they all manage to get together and create lots of very mixed kids.
It's the future of the Human Race. SINGULAR.

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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!

AngelSummers · Nov 18, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> People have thoughts that are violent, sexual, and "dark." Again, this is neither good nor bad, it just is. Our thoughts run around like mad in our brain, and we are allowed to have them, whatever they are. Our interaction with other people is based on our ability and choice on what to express and how to express them, and, equally important, what not to express. With a telepath, your basic means of social interaction is stripped from you. It is like playing football without a helmet against a tank. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is why many Buddhist and even non-Buddhist practice meditation to clear out the mumbo-jumbo in the mind. To unscramble them so to speak.

Try finding a meditation group, preferably Buddhist and see what I mean. But then, I'm going off topic.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Yeah, but a lot can happen between the events after the great burn and humanity's evolution to the First One stage. I mean it's 990000 years plenty of time to wipe out species or committ mass genocide. We don't know if the teeps wiped humans off the earth and became the First Ones or if the humans wiped telepaths off the planet and then reacquired telepathy and became First Ones. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here's an angle probably nobody has considered. Our recorded history is only 5000-10000years. This could be too short a period to judge that Humans are incapable of learning from mistakes. And like it or not, we are becoming better in more respects tahn in the past, although the effect is probably so miniscule hardly anybody notices. Particularly when the number of ignorant and stupid people are still huge.

Back to the quote, it is completely illogical for another mass genocide after the Great Burn.

For one thing, nobody is going to care about that sort of shit while trying to reach back to the stars. Particularly if the Rangers have been subtly influencing the post-apocalypse humans. You might say why we haven't learnt our lesson after WW2 but maybe it wasn't world-scale enough for humanity to come to its senses. While I would hate for that to happen AFTER we're nearly wiped out to the point of near-extinction, I'm afraid it might be true. This future I fear for my children but I leave it to them to survive after my time is over.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Did you read the psicorp trilogy? It says in the end how the new psicorps reinstated the programs of the old corps and during Bester's trial he hints that telepaths and humans will eventually have a final showdown. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This was through the eyes of Bester mind you. A man who NEVER repented the blood he spilled, telepath or normal. A man who never put himself in the shoes of another. A man who sliced out the mind of the woman he loves. A man who ultimately betrays everyone in sight, friend or foe. May be they did reinstate some old reforms but it could be for better. How much can Bester know from prison anyway? He only reads from news. He probably hasn't met anyone in the outside world to justify what he just said. He would manipulate to the death, and die without honor. We can only pray what happens to him then. [note, this is just a fictional character.

]

Besides, after Great Burn, JMS never hints another showdown.

Of course, he is just one perspective. And this is still a fictional story.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>In my old neighborhood in Brooklyn, one must be carefule when walking the streets at night. When one sees a group of young black men dressing and acting a certain way, one must be particularly wary. The fact is, the vast majority of street crimes in that neighborhood are committed by black men. So, is it racist to try to avoid being noticed by them, or to be more alert around them under those circumstances? No, it's being realistic. Even if it is racist, I'm not going to get hurt just to prove to myself how tolerant I am. Likewise, there are black folks in some rural areas in the Southern US that act the same way towards white people, and they are right to do so.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And G'Karseye, I never said you have to let your guard down in front of blacks or anybody who looks threatening. Just don't make it look bloody obvious. You can be cautious without making yourselves vulnerable. Hell, we do it all the time whenever we're with friends or even family to make sure they never hurt us. I'm always paranoid with every new friend I make [I had many betrayals and bullies in my life] but I don't appear hostile and aloof to them.

Sorry about your dad's experience. Hope he changes his mind soon.

By the way, A_Ranger, its been fun. Drop by the Buffy and Angel appreciation thread if you like the show. If you don't, well, watch it if you can. Joss Whedon's writing is quite comparable to our beloved JMS.

Love you all people!!!

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May the light of the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha protect you.

May you all be well and happy, free from suffering, free from sickness.

**DONOTDELETE** · Nov 18, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Could you tell me how we've improved? I see great improvement in technology, but thats all.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes.

International co-operation has become more widespread. We see a UN which at least tries to reach some kind of agreement, to provide some kind of assistance in case of crisis.

We see contries joining peacefully into formations like the EU -- without a threat of destruction to propel them. This would have been less probable a thousand years ago, without the experiences of the world wars and the Cold War. We may ultimately forget these lessons and re-learn them in the hard way... but something is destined to be learned, something will improve.

At least I can see people trying to understand why conflicts appear, why they escalate as they often do. We know a great deal more about ourselves.

Given an awful load of good luck, introspection might stay on par with exploration -- and we might not destroy ourselves as soon as we get hold of the next advanced weapon or energy source. Given a hellish load of good luck, we might avoid fatally damaging Earth's ecosystem.

I have some hope in this species. The world would be too depressing without it. We may fail, but not before trying to succeed.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>But not even the Anla'shok could get rid of greed, envy and hatred unless they did some major genetic tampering which would be beyond their technology.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Genetic tampering is not the way out of greed, envy or hatred. Never. Social balance, education, freedom of choice and equality of opportunities... are the best ways known so far.

Stupidity, intolerance and ignorance are inherent to any sentient mind. Just like undestanding, care and wisdom. There can be no sentient mind without them. There can be no capability for love without a capability for hate. We can't remove them, but we can choose which ones we use. We can control and balance them -- but this requires introspection, understanding how they work.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited November 18, 2001).]

AngelSummers · Nov 19, 2001

Wow Lennier. You're words are so profound. I could not put it more eloquently than you have already done.

Before replying to anything, I have to say this.

FREEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDOMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!

Exam is over!!!Just had my last exam 30 minutes ago. I'm a Commerce student by the way, which might explain some of my thinking.

I love Australia, I love America, I love Malaysia, I love Bester....... ah what the heck? I love Bester!!! Well, Walter Koenig anyway. After this, nothing can put me in a bad mood, even doomsdayers like Mr.Bester and G'Karseye.

Sorry. Had to get that out. No offense Mr.Bestr and G'Karseye. I respect your opinions even if I flat out don't agree with them.

OK, serious mode now. Some rebuttal to Mr. Bester.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Here's an angle probably nobody has considered. Our recorded history is only 5000-10000years. This could be too short a period to judge that Humans are incapable of learning from mistakes.
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One thousand or so years ago people were blaming lepers and jews for the Black plague now people are blaming gays and the immoral for this. I don't see any difference. Humanity has and will repeat its mistakes forever or until it goes extinct. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

what does this have to do with the price of apples and oranges? You haven't even acknowledged my points yet, either affirming them or rebutting them. I'm just saying 5000 years is too short a time to judge humans as incapable of learning from history. And for your information, there are large groups of people who think of the connection between gays and AIDS as the price between apples and oranges.

mmmmmmm, I'm feeling hungry already.

Damn, gotta change back to serious mode.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Who are these "ignorant and stupid people" that you refer to? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not you if that's what you think. Merely irrational people who associate things without proof and with extreme prejudice. Case of lepers with Black Death in mind. I don't think you're one based on your intelligent answers. (I think, maybe other don't)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> But not even the Anla'shok could get rid of greed, envy and hatred unless they did some major genetic tampering which would be beyond their technology. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, the difference between apples and oranges comes to mind again. As far as I have heard, there is no such thing as the Hate Gene", "Prejudice Gene", "Love Gene" and any other personality trait gene. If Chinese were genetically incapable of being "civilized" in the western sense, how Bruce end up being a true American which uphold the laws and respects of his new homeland, even sharing the secrets of Chinese Martial arts? And the countless American Chinese, nay, iranian, iraqian, and arabs living as lawful citizens of America? Once upon a time, nobody believe they could blend in. They have, so all the talk of them being incapable of democracy is bullshit and you know it.

Let's recap. I'm not denying a war if telepaths resurface. I just believe humanity will learn, though it takes a thousand years. As Bakana said, in ten thousand years intermarriage will be so rife probably ALL humans will have the gene one way or another. They have to. If they try to isolate from each other, both groups will die out as the genetic pool stagnates.

Even in the Harry Potter novels, wizards mix with normals or Muggles. But then, I'm going off topic.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Could you tell me how we've improved? I see great improvement in technology, but thats all. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Like I said, the effect is so miniscule that nobody would notice. Lennier said it best but I would add that there are a greater number of open-minded people than there ever was in the past who can question authority and old-age thinkings. Look at this board? We have probably hundreds of counterparts capable of decent argument which proves them not likely to instantly shoot you just because you're different.

Hooohhh!!! Feeling tired from studying. Gotta get a nap. Last few words for Mr.Bester. Try to think REALLY LONG term and really big and open regarding humanity's time on this earth. To us it's 10000 long years but it may still not be enough to judge the capacity of Human love and compassion as well as hate and fear.

Take care of yourselves everyone.

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May the light of the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha protect you.

May you all be well and happy, free from suffering, free from sickness.

bakana · Nov 19, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Only the order of monks in Deconstruction were trying to build the tech to reach the stars, but the rest of the world lead by the Vatican ,it seems, is very anti-technology blaming it for the Great Burn. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Deciding that the Vatican is the world government after the great burn just because an UnRecognized order of monks cares what the Vatican thinks is quite a leap.

The dialogue about the Vatican concerned the Monks' desire to become an Official order.

The revelation that it was also a secret Ranger outpost makes that lack of recognition even More interesting.
It's quite possible the Vatican hardly ever really GETS any messages from the monks.

Also, I don't believe the dialogue supports as much Anti-Tech feeling as you seem to assume.
If it were Dangerous to have Tech around, Alwin wouldn't have scientific gadgetry sitting around openly in his office.
You never can tell when the neighbors might come over for a casual visit.
Running around hiding the stuff while someone waits in the outer office is a bit risky.

And, if they are going around digging up ancient artifacts, people are bound to notice and talk about it.
Remember Alwin's request that they make the next "discovery" look a bit Older.
That means he's concerned about people seeing whatever gets dug up.
Besides the Monks, that is, although it's obvious only a few of Them are in on the secret.

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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!

AngelSummers · Nov 19, 2001

What is Vatican? I'm not familiar with the word. Somebody enlighten me please? I'll answer any question you might have on Buddhism in return.

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May the light of the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha protect you.

May you all be well and happy, free from suffering, free from sickness.

[This message has been edited by AngelSummers (edited November 18, 2001).]

Mr. Bester · Nov 19, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by AngelSummers:

Here's an angle probably nobody has considered. Our recorded history is only 5000-10000years. This could be too short a period to judge that Humans are incapable of learning from mistakes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One thousand or so years ago people were blaming lepers and jews for the Black plague now people are blaming gays and the immoral for this. I don't see any difference. Humanity has and will repeat its mistakes forever or until it goes extinct.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
And like it or not, we are becoming better in more respects tahn in the past, although the effect is probably so miniscule hardly anybody notices.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Could you tell me how we've improved? I see great improvement in technology, but thats all.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Particularly when the number of ignorant and stupid people are still huge.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who are these "ignorant and stupid people" that you refer to?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Back to the quote, it is completely illogical for another mass genocide after the Great Burn. For one thing, nobody is going to care about that sort of shit while trying to reach back to the stars. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only the order of monks in Deconstruction were trying to build the tech to reach the stars, but the rest of the world lead by the Vatican ,it seems, is very anti-technology blaming it for the Great Burn. And besides when they do reach the stars they'll start caring about this.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Particularly if the Rangers have been subtly influencing the post-apocalypse humans. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But not even the Anla'shok could get rid of greed, envy and hatred unless they did some major genetic tampering which would be beyond their technology.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>You might say why we haven't learnt our lesson after WW2 but maybe it wasn't world-scale enough for humanity to come to its senses.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahem the groups that learn from WW2 eventually forget these lessons as the subsequent generations don't listen.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
This was through the eyes of Bester mind you. A man who NEVER repented the blood he spilled, telepath or normal. A man who never put himself in the shoes of another. A man who sliced out the mind of the woman he loves. A man who ultimately betrays everyone in sight, friend or foe.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bester was probably JMS and the writer's mouthpiece and I think JMS was FORESHADOWING there that it wasn't over.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
May be they did reinstate some old reforms but it could be for better. How much can Bester know from prison anyway? He only reads from news. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The point was that the new psicorps was becoming like the old since normals and teeps weren't getting along. Also Bester's prison was near PsiCorp HQ which was around Earthdome so I'd think he would know about this stuff given his proximity to it.

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bakana · Nov 19, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> What is Vatican? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

AngelSummers, the Vatican is the home of the Pope, the Spiritual leader of the Roman Catholic Church.

Vatican City is located in (surrounded by?) Rome and is recognized as an Independent Country with diplomats, ambassadors, etc. in addition to being a religious center.

In the segment of "Deconstruction of Fallinmg Stars" with the Rangers using a religious order for cover, there is mention of the monks trying to get "recognition" from the Vatican as an Official order.
That's what we were talking about.

BTW, it is worthwhile to note that the Monk segment is a tribute to the novel A Canticle for Leibowitz by Walter Miller Jr.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Written during the height of 50s concern over the danger of nuclear war, Canticle was the most literarily successful science fiction novel written on the subject until Russell Hoban's Riddley Walker (1980). Part of the novel's success derives from its richly realized setting, a post-holocaust America where scraps of pre-war knowledge are gathered and preserved by a Catholic Church which no longer understands that knowledge. The novel takes for granted familiarity with the idea that after the fall of the Roman Empire, knowledge was preserved in Western Europe almost exclusively in small, isolated communities of priests and monks during a centuries-long dark age, recopied by men who often understood little of the ancient manuscripts of which they were the custodians. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For more info look at:
Study Guide for Walter M. Miller, Jr.: A Canticle for Leibowitz (1959) http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~brians/science_fiction/canticle.html

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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!

AngelSummers · Nov 19, 2001

Interesting. I never knew the Pope actually had his own territory in the world.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> In the segment of "Deconstruction of Fallinmg Stars" with the Rangers using a religious order for cover, there is mention of the monks trying to get "recognition" from the Vatican as an Official order.
That's what we were talking about. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What would the point of that be by the way? And why does everyone assume that the Catholic church always survive apocalypses? Is it because, as you say, during the European Dark Ages they were the only ones preserving any sort of knowledge from the fallen Empires of Rome and Greece?

By the way, what we were talking about was Alfred Bester but now I got the feeling we;re gonna go to the realm of Catholics now.

I apologise for any future accidental insults I may add.

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May the light of the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha protect you.

May you all be well and happy, free from suffering, free from sickness.

bakana · Nov 19, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> What would the point of that be by the way? And why does everyone assume that the Catholic church always survive apocalypses? Is it because, as you say, during the European Dark Ages they were the only ones preserving any sort of knowledge from the fallen Empires of Rome and Greece? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's a Familiar construct.

Plus, only a dedicated community such as a bunch of Monks would be willing to dedicate their lives to such an essentialy boring and endless task as copying pages of text they don't have any need for or understanding of.

It's easier to offer up an Existing, familiar group of this nature than to suppose that someone would Create a new organization from nothing in an apocalyptic situation.
People tend to retreat to the familiar when times are uncertain.

Plus, as I said, the segment was a tribute to a prior work of SF.

As far as Why the Catholic church?
Well, how many Other monastic orders are there that an American audience can be counted on to be familiar with?

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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!

**DONOTDELETE** · Nov 19, 2001

The Pope’s hat is a triple crown. This was designed to show that he was not only King of the Vatican and head of the Roman Catholic Church but was also King of Kings. Which meant that he could give orders to all the other kings in western Europe. For hundreds of years the Pope’s real job was to mobilise all the counties of Europe against the Muslins in southern Europe and pagans in the north. Jesus may have been a man of peace but his chief representatives on Earth, the Popes, were Ministers for War.

The Christians call these religious wars the Crusades. The Crusades ended about 400 years ago when all the pagans were converted to Christianity, Islam had been kicked out of Europe and all invasions of Islamic Africa (south and east of the Mediterranean) had failed. The Muslins claim that these wars were Holy Wars and can be classified as Jihad. Osama Bin Laden claims his acts are a modern Jihad; and the thousands of Muslim volunteers going to Afghanistan show that a lot of people believe him.

The Roman Catholic Church ran a network of religious buildings, called churches, in every town in Europe that provided a place of prayer and religious teaching to the secular public. The third arm of the Roman Catholic Church was a very large number of monasteries containing the monks who kept learning - like reading and writing - going after the fall of the Roman Empire. The Orthodox Churches performed the equivalent functions in eastern Europe. The armies have now gone but the churches and monisties remain.

When the Crusades ended, several counties broke away from the Roman Catholic Church including Britain and large parts of Germany. Released from the burden of Crusading, the Europeans were able to expand into places like the Americas and Australia.

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Andrew Swallow

Zoriah · Nov 19, 2001

Oh, while I'm not a history buff (perhaps someone else can elaborate on this)... I'd like to point out that during the dark ages, the arabic nations actually continued to advance and preserve the sciences and other forms of literature and knowledge reasonably openly. While pockets of christian monks and the like did their best to keep books and learning safe, a lot of credit also needs to go to the non christian cultures at the time that did not succumb to the wholesale condemnation of the arts, sciences and basic reading and writing as being possible links to the occult or only the domain of the high ranked religious few.

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AngelSummers · Nov 20, 2001

My dad used to joke that whatever genius genes the Arabs once had has long gone died. This is a joke of course and I'm not contradicting myself since I've repeatedly attacked the concept of genetic personality traits.

Its just that if you look at the once glorious Arab nations that nearly conquered half of Europe and that withstood the Hordes of Genghis Khan, you would never imagine they did that 1000 years before. As of now, they're so backward and the only thing that keeps them going is the huge deposits of oil throughout Saudi Arabia and Egypt.

Once upon a time, I believe Europeans created everything. Now I find out that until the Renaissance period, the whole of Europe was an uncivilized mudhole with hundreds of feudal lords and so-called Knights squabbling over petty kingdoms while the Arab nations were strong and had a very very rich culture. Not to mention a powerful military. They say they had great horse archers like the Mongolians. Many European countries such as Spain, Portugal and Western Europe continues to bear marks of the Moslem invasions which brought art and science with them.

The rest of the world was also relatively more civilized. (not counting America yet but then, look at the Mayans in South America?) China may have had a hundred different dynasties but each one continued to advance science and culture. Civilization often had nothing to do with Christianity or religion for that matter. Its only after the Renaissance period that Westerners leapt forward and utilizing brilliant innovation, upgraded every technology from gunpowder(chinese invention) to paper documents (also Chinese) and conquered half the world.

I think we're going off topic guys. Best we return to our favourite villain of Babylon 5 Alfred Bester. If you want, I'll open a thread for history buffs. Mind you, I know very little of European history, only Chinese, Mongols and some of Saudi Arabia.

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May the light of the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha protect you.

May you all be well and happy, free from suffering, free from sickness.

Jade Jaguar · Nov 20, 2001

The Maya were in Southern Mexico and Central America. The Inca were the best known and most powerful civilization in South America at the time of the conquest. Both were very advanced agriculturally. The potato was domesticated into over onehundred varieties by Andean cultures. Corn was domesticated from teosinte grass in the Valley of Mexico. Modern genetic analysis suggests that agriculture actually developed there before it did in the fertile crescent of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers of Mesopotamia, and therefore, civilization may have begun first there as well. The Maya were highly advanced in astronomy and mathematics. They developed the concept of zero before the old world did, and had a more accurate measure of the solar year than we did until the early 1900's. The Arabs were also highly advanced astronomers and mathemeticians while Europe was in the dark ages. That's why we use arabic numerals, not roman numerals, and why many stars have arabic names. The cultural conceit that many americans and europeans have that we are superior is just that, a conceit, as history shows.

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You're speaking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Maid Marian
Fluently! Errol Flynn as Robin Hood
You're talking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Arabella Bishop
I trust I'm not obscure. Errol Flynn as Dr. Peter Blood

Pallindromes of the month: Snug was I, ere I saw guns.
Doom an evil deed, liven a mood.

Mondo Londo · Nov 20, 2001

Well, the Chinese had great treasure fleets (ships 4 times the size of what Columbus sailed, long before Columbus sailed) that made it to Indochina, India, Arabia, down the east coast of Africa to the east -- and out to the Philippines, maybe Australia and possibly the Americas to the east.

However, internal politics within the Ming Dynasty stopped these great fleets from continuing their travels. By the time the Europeans rounded Africa and found natives still wearing silk, the Chinese treasure fleets were gone for at least 50-80 years.

Likewise, the Arabs were great sailers and had an amazing civilization.

I think a great question to ask is why these great civilizations that were so far ahead of western Europe for so long faded; and how western Europe become politically, militarily, and scientifically dominant.

BTW, an important book to read about Europe emerging from the Dark Ages is (I think this is the title) How the Irish Saved Civilization.

There may be a relationship to Alfred Bester somewhere in here, but I'm not quite sure what it is...

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"What's up, Drakh?"

Michael Garibaldi

bakana · Nov 20, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The third arm of the Roman Catholic Church was a very large number of monasteries containing the monks who kept learning - like reading and writing - going after the fall of the Roman Empire. The Orthodox Churches performed the equivalent functions in eastern Europe. The armies have now gone but the churches and monestaries remain.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

FWIW, the Monestaries & Convents of Europe served as much of a Political purpose (if not more at times) as a Religious purpose.
They were often used as a place to "store" younger brothers, sisters, wives, even inconvenient mothers-in-law by the various "noble" families.

Particularly in the higher levels of politics, "extra" family members were often the agressors in battles over succession to titles, property and power.
Killing them was frowned upon.
Plus, if the older brother died in war or accident without producing any children, the younger member of the family could be retrieved from the monestery, "released" from his religious vows and take over.
It kept things relatively peaceful in face of a Population explosion among the nobility and cut down on the body count.
Similarly, a Sister could be stashed in a convent if there were no "suitable" alliances she could be sold (married) to cement.
These women could also be dragged back into family service if the winds of politics changed.

It was another way for the Church to assert control. In essence, these monks and nuns were held hostage by the church with the willing cooperation of their families.

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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
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The evil of Alfred Bester

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