The Minbari suck

[GKarsEye]

Is it possible to fuck a Vorlon? They're a bit insubtantial for that.

If evolving means giving up sex, I'd prefer remaing a brutish simian.

I suspect that Minbari Workers are pretty OK

I suspect that they're a bunch of pricks, but unlike the other two castes, I have no evidence of this.

you are expecting aliens to conform to human psycology

No, I'm expecting them to practice what they preach.
Life is important, she says. Each one is like a candle, she says, and when the flame goes out there will never be another like it. But oh golly this war that I started is too out of control for me to stop.
(and no, it's not just Delenn, it's all of them, assuming they all believe what she does, which is true since it comes from the same "religion")

Try to see it from the Minbari view. Their greatest leader had been killed without explanation, when they had only been following their own customs and could never have thought of that action being misinterpreted

They have been a space faring race for millenia. The idea of approaching an unknown war ship with their weapons open never struck them as a bad idea? If this is true, then in addition to my other criticisms, they are also profoundly stupid.
But it's not really true. Dukhat knew it was a bad idea.
The other Minbari in that situation did exactly what you're accusing me of doing- expecting other to think like them. It was not only stupid, but arrogant, and inherent demand for others to somehow understand their customs.

"Going mad" is no excuse. Would the Union have been justified in annihilating the entire ex-Confederacy because a southern actor killed their leader?

I think it was Delenn who pointed out that the Warrior caste relished the war because it was easy. What a bunch of jerks.

Religion is very important to many people, and is just as valid a reason for our actions as any.

Reasons mean nothing, only the actions themselves.

If a race is wrong in trying to wipe us out, we are no more right if we respond in kind.

Incorrect. If you try to kill me, you better believe I will kill you to prevent it, because to me, my life is more important than yours. If you don't value your life and those you love as the most important, than you have to seriously re-think your moral values.
Likewise if a terrorist group tries to harm us (ie, we have the righjt to wipe out Al Queda), or if Martian invade, they deserve to die.
But we wouldn't have the right to go to Mars and blow up their planet.


Also I can't decide which looks sillier: the head bones or the Centauri hair-dos.

 

[vacantlook]

The Vorlons' spaceships are MUCH more like giant space squids!

Indeed, according to one of the Jane Killick Babylon 5 guide books, the guy who designed the Vorlon ships made them to be a cross between squid and garlic and got the idea when he was riding past some place in California known for garlicy food.

 

[sleepy_shadow]

If evolving means giving up sex, I'd prefer remaing a brutish simian.

I personally think a species capable of abandoning sex... should be capable of choosing which abilities its keeps or drops. Thus, surely the best features could be kept... while the annoying ones dropped without second thought.

For example: if a simple conversation with someone you like (possibly on the level of thoughts, not even words) could provide all the pleasurable aspects of sex... then who would bother having "real" sex?

I dare to predict: very few people.

I suspect that they're a bunch of pricks, but unlike the other two castes, I have no evidence of this.

We *do* have evidence that Minbari workers can be quite annoying. Their positive features include lack of respect for uniformed people -- even if conditional upon said people not respecting the effort invested into making silly uniforms.

By the way... do the Minbari have money? They certainly use B5 credits... but how are things on their homeworld? Are they capitalist, socialist... somewhere in between?

They have been a space faring race for millenia. The idea of approaching an unknown war ship with their weapons open never struck them as a bad idea?

If other ships frequently shoot at you, approaching with guns hot might actually seem like a *good* idea. If you never shoot first, but always shoot *back* quickly.

Would the Union have been justified in annihilating the entire ex-Confederacy because a southern actor killed their leader?

(I should note that comparing a fictional and real historical conflict... is not proper debate.)

Having noted that: to my undestanding of history, compared with how I interpreted the story of B5... it would seem to me that casualties in the US Civil War... generously exceeded casualties in the Minbari war (and especially its civilian casualties) in every possible fashion.

So, in terms of casualties placed side by side, the Union *did* annihilate the Cofederacy, while the Minbari merely destroyed Human military capability.

That changes nothing. If evil Canadians tried to destroy New York, I'd glady let loose and anti-Canada virus.

This sounds somewhat silly...

...but if evil Canadians shelled New York with conventional weapons... then would you unleash an anti-Canada virus... knowing that they have a virus prepared for your population, which they will unleash in turn?

Or would you reserve the option of using such a drastic means... stricly for the situation where New York has decisively lost, and evil Canadians seem intent on ethnically cleansing the state?

I emphasize: biological weapons are just as viable *after* organized conflict... as they are during it. If humans had adopted a strategy like Shadows used... they could have retaliated to the Minbari for the loss of Earth... fifty years later, if they really wanted. Should it have happened that Earth would have really been destroyed, even Stephen Franklin might have agreed to share his knowledge for destructive purpose.

But using a biological weapon while hope of negotiations persisted... would have simply destroyed that particular hope (which was realistic, and only failed because of Narn-Centauri hostilities).

 

[2aMageing]

PS- I think it's so cute that this is like a real argument

As soon as I saw Sleepy wade in........ ....I KNEW this was going to be good.

Thanks GKE, for the thread, and the friendly "outraged" sparing. A little quality humor outside Babbleon. It was overdue.

NO ONE rants quite like The Ol Mighty. And NO ONE debates quite like Sleepy.

[Bo or Mac....can't recall which]
"So........how long do ya figure THEY been married???"
[/One or the other]

 

[KoshFan]

Oh, they're being humorous? Good. I was intimidated by the length and ran away from their posts. I'd hate to think they're taking this seriously.

Well then fuck the Vorlons, too. They're also assholes.

Hey!

what the Minbari war cruisers always looked like to me was angel fish

Every time a Minbari cruiser drifted behind B5 (which was most episodes from Severed Dreams to the end of the Earth Civil War), I always thought to myself, "Big fish."

 

[2aMageing]

All that was lacking was the ........BLOOP.............BLOOP..........I wonder if I could record the video and edit in some fish sounds. Hmmmmmmmmm.........

 

[babylon1122]

...but if evil Canadians shelled New York with conventional weapons

Your lucky us evil Canadians don't have amunition big enough to even shell New York. If we did the shells would probably be empty or have the flu serum in it.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

So why are people trying to argue their case that the Minbari don't suck by listing all their similarities to humans, who are portrayed throughout the series as being corrupt and greedy?

I think the point is that the Minbari seem to be portrayed as BETTER than humans throughout the series, as more of a pure race. Don't lie, don't kill other Minbari, etc.

So listing all their similarities to humans to defend them is really a rather counterproductive arguement...

 

[deaded]

Yeah, totally. It's like all my friends who, every time I point out an idiotic George Bush action they pull out Monica Lewinski. Like that excuses anything! Blech! (and not to get even FURTHER off topic but I'm sorry but if I were President I think I could have found someone hotter than THAT to give me a hummer)

But to be fair sleepy does acknowledge the suckiness of the Minbari but also acknowledges than they don't suck any more than anyone else (except maybe Monica). We humans suck pretty hard when we want to. So give 'em a break.

 

[RMcD]

Anyone who had the good fortune to play the B5 collectible card game will know that the Minbari do not, in fact, suck, but tend to win about seven times out of ten.

 

[GKarsEye]

personally think a species capable of abandoning sex... should be capable of choosing which abilities its keeps or drops. Thus, surely the best features could be kept... while the annoying ones dropped without second thought.

For example: if a simple conversation with someone you like (possibly on the level of thoughts, not even words) could provide all the pleasurable aspects of sex... then who would bother having "real" sex?

I dare to predict: very few people.


Quote

You obviously don't date much...

We *do* have evidence that Minbari workers can be quite annoying. Their positive features include lack of respect for uniformed people -- even if conditional upon said people not respecting the effort invested into making silly uniforms.

You're assuming Zack's tailors were worker caste. They could have been religious.
If you take the Minbari caste titles literally, ie, that every religious caste Minbari is a priest or acolyte, then the only why the system could work is if there were a lot more worker caste Minbari than the others. Which of course would make sense- we're shown that the workers are ignored by the others, and it would be just like human cultures if the majority was ignored and put down by the powerful minority.

By the way... do the Minbari have money? They certainly use B5 credits... but how are things on their homeworld? Are they capitalist, socialist... somewhere in between?

Well, "socialist" doesn't mean lacking money, either. I would guess they'd be more socialist, since culturally they seem to value the group more than the individual.
Given that they're a humanoid specialised advanced society, I can't imagine how they can function without money or some equivalent.

If other ships frequently shoot at you, approaching with guns hot might actually seem like a *good* idea. If you never shoot first, but always shoot *back* quickly.

Circular argument. You're assuming the Minbari don't start conflicts.

(I should note that comparing a fictional and real historical conflict... is not proper debate.)

Was this supposed to be proper debate?

Having noted that: to my undestanding of history, compared with how I interpreted the story of B5... it would seem to me that casualties in the US Civil War... generously exceeded casualties in the Minbari war (and especially its civilian casualties) in every possible fashion.

So, in terms of casualties placed side by side, the Union *did* annihilate the Cofederacy, while the Minbari merely destroyed Human military capability

You're missing the point. It's not about numbers. It's about what happens when one side defeats the other. When the South surrendered, the war was over. When the humans surrendered, the Minbari kept going after them.

...but if evil Canadians shelled New York with conventional weapons... then would you unleash an anti-Canada virus... knowing that they have a virus prepared for your population, which they will unleash in turn?

Or would you reserve the option of using such a drastic means... stricly for the situation where New York has decisively lost, and evil Canadians seem intent on ethnically cleansing the state?

Humans were already decisively losing to the Minbari, and what the Minbari were planning was even worse than ethnic cleansing.

Oh, they're being humorous? Good. I was intimidated by the length and ran away from their posts. I'd hate to think they're taking this seriously.

That's generally what I always do with sleepy's posts, but this is too amusing.

Well then fuck the Vorlons, too. They're also assholes.




Hey!

This would be a good time to mention that I hate the Vorlons even more than the Minbari.

I think the point is that the Minbari seem to be portrayed as BETTER than humans throughout the series, as more of a pure race. Don't lie, don't kill other Minbari, etc.

Yes, thank you. The Minbari are also hypocrites.

 

[RW7427]

Dude, I hope you don't meet some Minbari in a dark alley somewhere!

 

[sleepy_shadow]

You obviously don't date much...

Which doesn't make me less qualified on the issue. Could even make me more qualified.

Anyway... sex raises risk of transmitting disease, or experiencing unwanted pregnancy (and pregnancy itself is a horribly inconvenient/inefficient process).

Should sometime in future, possibility open for replacing sex with something safer yet equally pleasant... said passtime would simply outcompete sex. Likewise, less dangerous ways of reproducing would outcompete pregnancy.

In a time when people will probably be a symbiosis of biology/technology (if not entirely technology) it would be pointless to carry along burdens from an inefficient biological past, a period of lacking independence and incomplete self-control.

Circular argument. You're assuming the Minbari don't start conflicts.

Given available info, not circular at all. Can you mention an interstellar conflict which they *did* start?

Was this supposed to be proper debate?

I am not interested in less (than proper debate).

You're missing the point. It's not about numbers. It's about what happens when one side defeats the other.

So, what did the Minbari do, when they defeated Humans? Nothing. If they did have a criminal plan before... they reconsidered.

When the South surrendered, the war was over.

And the South was occupied. Earth was not occupied.

When the humans surrendered, the Minbari kept going after them.

To my knowledge, Minbari refused to accept surrender only from military vessels. They are not mentioned to have destroyed any civilian colonies.

Humans were already decisively losing to the Minbari, and what the Minbari were planning was even worse than ethnic cleansing.

They were planning the near-impossible. Only the stubborn idiocy of Humans made it possible for such a complete loss (a populated planet at the mercy of an orbiting fleet) to dawn.

Tracking down a civilization capable of interstellar travel, if it really decides to flee... is near-impossible, unless your engines and sensors exceed them *so* many times that even three spatial dimensions directly playing in their favour...cannot balance the game.

Minbari were profoundly stupid to even entertain the hope of eradicating Humans. At best, they could force Humans to leave Earth, and scatter out into space controlled by other civilizations.

Earth could have been left behind... like Z'ha'dum was left behind... mined, ready to self-destruct, or at least ready to turn uninhabitable under any sentients attempting to settle in without Human authorization.

Humans however were profoundly idiotic to try defending Earth until their hands were empty -- as opposed to defending half-heartedly, while bailing out through the back door.

If the Minbari could not have been negotiated with, and would have destroyed Earth... they should have reached a nearly uninhabited Earth (or an Earth inviting occupation, in reality ready to self-destruct).

Due to technical inequality, retaliation clearly needed slipping away and hiding first... becoming a difficult or impossible target, and then, later, striking back (after improving tools and developing weapons). Devoting effort to biological weapons, at a time when evacuation was *the* foremost concern... would have been stupid at best.

This would be a good time to mention that I hate the Vorlons even more than the Minbari.

I dislike Vorlons too.

Don't lie, don't kill other Minbari, etc.

Yes, thank you. The Minbari are also hypocrites.

Half of your statement appears incorrect. We did not learn of violent crime among the Minbari before their Civil War.

 

[Sinclair]

This is one of the best threads in a long time. Props, GKE!

 

[deaded]

I think the point is that the Minbari seem to be portrayed as BETTER than humans throughout the series, as more of a pure race. Don't lie, don't kill other Minbari, etc

I disagree with this assessment. I think that JMS portrays them as TRYING to make themselves look better than humans but we constantly see holes in their fascade. I believe that JMS actually portrays them as being as flawed as (if not more flawed than) humans. We clearly see that they DO lie, DO try to kill eachother, and DO manipulate others to their own ends. I have not done so but would venture to guess that if we counted up all the Minbari who are portrayed as good vs. those portrayed as evil/bad/mean we would get a ratio somewhere around 1:8.

 

[GKarsEye]

Anyway... sex raises risk of transmitting disease, or experiencing unwanted pregnancy (and pregnancy itself is a horribly inconvenient/inefficient process).

Fortunately we have the technology to deal with this.

Can you mention an interstellar conflict which they *did* start?

Not a specific one. But we do know the Minbari were quite violent and war-mongering before Valen. I would be surprised if they limited their wars to within their own race.

So, what did the Minbari do, when they defeated Humans? Nothing.

You are still missing the point, so I will try one last time: the Minbari didn't defeat the humans at the Battle of the Line. They had already won way before that. They were exponentially more superior militarily and could have stopped at any point. Even at the Line, the president surrendered and they didn't stop. They were not interested in winning a war. So I'm saying their assholes because they embraced that kind of depraved mentality. That so many of them are bitter after they changed their mind also speaks to their disgusting lack of character.

We did not learn of violent crime among the Minbari before their Civil War.

We do learn that they hide things. It stands to reason they would hide that, too, like they lie about everything else. And why are you excluding the Civil War? That's too convenient. It is proof that they're full of shit.

Let's not forget the Deathwalker. If that doesn't tell you that there is something seriously fucked up with Minbari, I don't know what will.

 

[sleepy_shadow]

If that doesn't tell you that there is something seriously fucked up with Minbari

You don't need to tell me that. I know they are fucked up. Unfortunately, every civilization in Babylon 5 is fucked up.

In all likeliness, they are neither more nor less fucked-up than Brakiri, Humans, Centauri, Narn or Drazi.

They simply have different ways of being fucked up. While Minbari practised their idiocy by harbouring Deathwalker, Humans practised it by propping up Clarke, while the Centuari chose Cartagia.

(And surely other civilizations too... would have figured out someone deplorable to shelter, or invest with excessive power.)

 

[KoshFan]

Suffice it to say that people -- be they Human, Minbari, or "higher beings" -- are a problem.

 

[sleepy_shadow]

Which is why I must argue with GKarsEye, who in this topic, seems to focus on Minbari idiocy...

...to great injustice for other idiots, patiently waiting in a long queue. They have earned their share.

 

[GKarsEye]

Well, like you said, there are different kinds of idiocy, and the Minbari style is particularly irking to me and made for a cathartic faux-rant.