To the actors ? some thoughts about online forums

Quagmire · Aug 8, 2001

Yeah when comparisons threads arise I start to want to tell people to go outside and do something for awhile. I don't want to insult anyone but imho very little of use ever comes from those arguments.

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Bus

"Yeah, we could start our own game where people throw ducks at balloons and nothing's the way it seems."-Homer

channe · Aug 8, 2001

I know little use comes from them, but I think they're fun in a vacuous sort of way, especially since I spend most of my time doing comparisons that are a bit more serious.

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Channe, Freelance Writer Extraordinaire and The Next JMS
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B5 Synchroninity of the Day: I just found out that the new dorm I'm living in next year has been named Breen Hall.

hypatia · Aug 8, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by channe:
On the issue of artists as public property –

It happens far too much! Too many times fans believe that just because what an artist does is presented in a public forum – in television, in the bookstore, etc., - that that person as a fan has a right to own the output. And that’s just not true.

This mentality has led to the Napster debacle, the hundreds of B5 fans thinking they can just bandy about JMS’ Crusade scripts, the numerous reprinted full-text novels that are NOT on permission-bound sites like Project Gutenberg, and the trolls that infest SF sites complaining about the fact that they didn’t like what a certain actor did.

I think this stuff honestly needs to be addressed in school. It’s too much a part of our society to ignore, and it’s a very destructive mentality.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interestingly enough, it is being addressed, at least for business majors in college.

A bit ago (maybe the 70's or 80's, I can't remember) there were a rash of big businesses and businessmen getting caught doing very illegal things with all of their power. All of the sudden, these business ethics courses started to pop up all over the place.

As I was leaving lecture one day I passed the instructor coming in for his class in the room after mine. I spoke with him briefly, and he was going into his business ethics class. I commented to him “so, they still teach those, do they?” He said it will be a permanent part of the business curriculum because it is always such a slippery issue. As new technology emerges, new issues arise. If he were at a big university, his entire job might be teaching business ethics.

I must confess, I myself obtained copies of two of the scripts JMS had on that website that shut down. The weird thing is, I actually read one of them on that site before it shut down. But after reading the postings from another thread, I felt so bad that I deleted both of the scripts from my disk.

It had honestly NEVER OCCURRED TO ME that I was stealing from JMS himself. And I’m an educated person, and one who is a field where the exact same thing is seriously being debated. A college instructor somewhere let a course of his be taped. The entire course, class included, discussion, etc. He left that school and they continued to use that tape, I think with a teaching assistant taking care of the “day-to-day” running of the class. Can you imagine it? The school claimed the teacher had no right to compensation. I don’t know how that ended, but I can guess. Northcentral, or whoever is in charge of academic standards in that state, probably stopped it for academic standard reasons!

I certainly feel stupid for doing the same thing in terms of the scripts. Live and learn, I guess. I’ll certainly never make that mistake again.

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"I do not believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense,
reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."-- Galileo

GKarsEye · Aug 8, 2001

I thought JMS gave his permission to put those scipts on that site. I don't understand how he can complain that people were "stealing" them.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

hypatia · Aug 8, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by GKarsEye:
I thought JMS gave his permission to put those scipts on that site. I don't understand how he can complain that people were "stealing" them.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is what I understand about the situation:
He did put the scripts on bookface.com. He thought that technology was in place to prevent people COPYING them. Either this was not true, or people just hand-typed the entire scripts themselves.

JMS I think has also said he might never do such a thing agian, since there are now so many illegal coppies out there. You see, the bookface.com scripts were supposed to be available for free for a short time only I think.

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"I do not believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense,
reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."-- Galileo

Technomage Roanna · Aug 8, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by GKarsEye:
I thought JMS gave his permission to put those scipts on that site. I don't understand how he can complain that people were "stealing" them.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because he put them there for the fans to be able to read ON THAT SITE. They were never intended to be distributed.

If I give you permission to borrow my car, even if I give you the keys, that does not make it okay for you to run it into a wall, keep it indefinitely in your own garage, or sell it to someone else.

And don't tell me a script can be reused again, because once it's been compromised in that way it's economic value is much diminished.

Ro

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I have no surviving
enemies. At all.

GKarsEye · Aug 8, 2001

I'm sorry, I'm trying to understand this, but I can't see it.

Ro, your analogy is a bit flawed. I would say that distributing the scripts would be more like if you let me borrow your car and I give my friend a ride.

I definitely see the problem selling the scripts, since that is someone else making money off of someone's intellectual property.

JMS put it up on bookface.com so that anybody could read them for free. If I e-mail to some people, they are reading it for free. Where's the problem?

It would be one thing if JMS didn't want anyone to see them at all, but here he went and let everyone read them. Then he changed his mind? I'm sorry, but you just can't do that.

Is it that he only wanted a certain number of people reading them? So, a couple of thousand people is fine, but a couple of million is too much? That doesn't make any sense.

Once you put it out there in public, it is out there in public. End of story.

I guess I just don't understand what JMS was trying to accomplish by putting the scripts on the web site. Did he want the public reading them or not?

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

Chris Springob · Aug 8, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Yeah when comparisons threads arise I start to want to tell people to go outside and do something for awhile. I don't want to insult anyone but imho very little of use ever comes from those arguments. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know that comparisons necessarily have to be such a bad thing. Rangers will likely be a very different show from Babylon 5, so it's only natural that many people will like one better than the other. It's just when people start disrespecting the fans of the other show that things get out of hand.

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Technomage Roanna · Aug 8, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by GKarsEye:
I would say that distributing the scripts would be more like if you let me borrow your car and I give my friend a ride.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, but it would be like letting your friend drive my car. Lot's of people have difficulty with the distinction between "Real" and "intellectual" property, but basically no one has a right to do just anything they want (whether money is involved or not) with MY work product.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
I definitely see the problem selling the scripts, since that is someone else making money off of someone's intellectual property.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The economic element is only part of the issue. The primary issue is of contol of your own work product.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>JMS put it up on bookface.com so that anybody could read them for free. If I e-mail to some people, they are reading it for free. Where's the problem?

It would be one thing if JMS didn't want anyone to see them at all, but here he went and let everyone read them. Then he changed his mind? I'm sorry, but you just can't do that.

Is it that he only wanted a certain number of people reading them? So, a couple of thousand people is fine, but a couple of million is too much? That doesn't make any sense.

Once you put it out there in public, it is out there in public. End of story.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Putting it on a protected website is not the same as putting it out for "public" consumption. Bookface did have some controls including user registration and security that was supposed to prevent downloading the texts). No money was charged, but that is not a necessary element since the other restrictions were in place.

Since he did put them up on a restricted site, his intent clearly was to protect his copyright.

If JMS doesn't object to the copyright being broached, then it might (and I stress might) be compromised. But he did object, which should be sufficient for fans, at any rate.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
I guess I just don't understand what JMS was trying to accomplish by putting the scripts on the web site. Did he want the public reading them or not?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While I have no telepathic knowledge to go on, from his past actions I would say he was trying to let Crusade fans see more of the story. He was also testing a new medium to see if the technological advances had caught up with E-publishing enough to protect authorship.

Unfortunately, not. So we won't be seeing any more such experiments from JMS soon.

I don't know if this makes it any clearer to you, but it is illegal and wrong to break copyright, period. If you benefit from someones work, you should be willing to pay for it.

Ro

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I have no surviving
enemies. At all.

[This message has been edited by Technomage Roanna (edited August 08, 2001).]

**DONOTDELETE** · Aug 8, 2001

JMS wanted to be PAID when people read his scripts.

The site tried to make money out of advertising, this failed. No subscription system was ever set up.

The main reason people obtained free copies of the scripts is that they were unable to pay for them.

If you want to be paid for acting/playing/writing make it easy for people to pay you.

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Andrew Swallow

Technomage Roanna · Aug 8, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by AndrewSwallow:
The main reason people obtained free copies of the scripts is that they were unable to pay for them.

If you want to be paid for acting/playing/writing make it easy for people to pay you.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, if you were to steal really really good books you couldn't afford, that would be okay?

Or if someone told you a book was no longer for sale, but you wanted to read it anyway, stealing would be an acceptable solution?

Ro

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I have no surviving
enemies. At all.

[This message has been edited by Technomage Roanna (edited August 08, 2001).]

GKarsEye · Aug 9, 2001

I just think it's a bit silly for JMS to have expected to keep his scripts on the internet yet to limit their access.

If he wants Crusade fans to read the scripts, then what's wrong with me, a Crusade fan, reading the script if you send it to me?

So, he expected the fans to honor his wishes and not distribute the scripts because he asked us not to? All it takes is one person to dishonor his wishes.

I guess it was just a stupid mistake on his part. Either keep the scripts secret or not. You can't expect some sort of middle ground, especially on the internet.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

Technomage Roanna · Aug 9, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by GKarsEye:
I just think it's a bit silly for JMS to have expected to keep his scripts on the internet yet to limit their access.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Happens all the time at various subscription and registration sites. That it is imperfect doesn't change the intent, which is to protect intellectual property rights and copyrighted material.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>So, he expected the fans to honor his wishes and not distribute the scripts because he asked us not to? All it takes is one person to dishonor his wishes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So because all it takes is one person to steal holiday decorations no one should put those out in their yard, nor object when that one person takes it?

There is a lowest common denominator in human behaviour, certainly, but it's important to remember that still means most of us are above that level.

Many people will disappoint, but that doesn't make the expectation wrong to have.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I guess it was just a stupid mistake on his part. Either keep the scripts secret or not. You can't expect some sort of middle ground, especially on the internet.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sure right now he thinks the same. But as the internet evolves at such a rapid pace, part of the development, as it matures, will have to be protecting the intellectual property rights of participants. I expect this was a way he used to test it, just as he tested the newsgroups as a way to communicate with fanbase. He was the first producer to really have a significant online presence, and now there's a slew of 'em, including the Andromeda Ascendant writers, Joss Whedon, and Aaron Sorkin.

And they're learning some painful lessons about the internet just like we are.

It will happen, but it won't be pain free. Same curve happened with the development of every technology that allowed mass access to information, from the printing press to the copy machine right down to the present day.

Ro

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I have no surviving
enemies. At all.

[This message has been edited by Technomage Roanna (edited August 09, 2001).]

**DONOTDELETE** · Aug 9, 2001

Technomage Roanna be careful not to libel me. I am the one saying pay for the scripts.

Although rephrasing what I said, if a shop wishes to be financially successful it needs to provide a pay desk.

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Andrew Swallow

GKarsEye · Aug 9, 2001

Ro, your logic is generally sound, but I recommend being careful with the analogies.

Stealing Christmas decorations, or any physical property involves much greater risk than cutting and pasting on-line. I, for one, could never do the first, but it would take something extraordinary to prevent me from doing the second.

My point is, he was already giving it out for free. I just don't understand why some people should see it and others shouldn't it.

It's not that I really, btw, it's just that I'm curious.

As far as dealing with the "lowest common denominator," there are different situations that require different behavior. Anyone who has lived in a city knows that there are certain areas you don't walk alone at night if you're a girl. Mike Tyson shouldn't have raped that girl, but when you go upstairs to a boxer's hotel room at 2am alone, what can you expect? A stimulating game of chess?

Anyone who locks their doors and doesn't leave their children out of their sight knows what they're dealing with. When you put your stuff on the internet for free, then expect some schmuck in a trailer park in Nebraska to be able to get his hands on it.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

**DONOTDELETE** · Aug 10, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>My point is, he was already giving it out for free. I just don't understand why some people should see it and others shouldn't it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A good question. I doubt if there is an equally good answer... except that this was what he wished... and that copying would hurt the chances of the same material getting published.

I intend to respect his wishes and avoid reading the scripts... at least as long there is hope of Crusade continuing. But I have read 3 of the short stories - ironically because I had no convenient way to determine who were they meant to be free for - either the site's visitors or everyone.

We should always remember that this is a planet with Humans, not Vorlons living on it. Take for example the dilemma with B5 bloopers. They are absolutely hilarious, only increase my respect for the actors and haven't been published officially. As sad as it is, they are likely to be never published officially - thus copying doesn't seem to decrease that chance. I seriously doubted whether I should or shouldn't download them... and after a great deal of doubt, couldn't resist the temptation. I will do my penance later.

Besides, Roanna, I'd like to point out an inadequacy in your comaparison of intellectual property with real property. A copyright violation is not stealing in the ordinary sense - it is copying and using material against the author's wishes. There is a difference which, by the way, does *not* make it a smaller offense.

But I simply can't imagine someone stealing Christmas decorations without knowing they belong to someone. The harm this causes is clear and obvious to everyone... and it is certain that the decorations must belong to someone.

With information, the situation is different. Firstly it may seem that copying won't cause any harm. Usually it isn't so... but there are exceptions. Secondly there may be no viable way to determine whether a material is copyrighted. Disclaimers, reference databases and digital signatures only work with some types of material. There are only a few well-established and working traditions in this field.

Finally, in case of material not public domain but distributed for free (correction: free for the reader) there is the issue of not knowing the terms of copyright. Example: JMS' stories at BookFace.

I can only say it is a difficult question. I hope that the aforementioned problems will decrease with time... but I'm afraid they will never completely go away.

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Canned flarn is a sacrilege.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited August 09, 2001).]

Technomage Roanna · Aug 10, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by AndrewSwallow:
Technomage Roanna be careful not to libel me. I am the one saying pay for the scripts.

Although rephrasing what I said, if a shop wishes to be financially successful it needs to provide a pay desk.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Libel is it, to ask for clarification?

If I came across as sharp, it is because it didn't sound to me like you were saying that people should "pay", (which in this case is peruse with permission, not an actual exchange of funds) rather that they took it because it was too hard to do what was asked. And G'kar's Eye is saying it was too easy to steal, so expect people to do so.

Wasn't trying to hurt your feelings Andrew, but to understand your meaning.

And I think my analogy's just fine, thank you.

Something is put out to share, with restrictions, boundaries, if you will, which are then ignored. It is not analogous to walking down the street, if you insist on that kind of comparison the closest it comes is sitting out in someone's yard, behind a gate.

If I recall correctly, you're a software engineer, aren't you? Do you really think it's okay for someone to take code you've worked on and use it for their own purposes with no recompense to you as a creator? (I don't know if it's programming you actually do, but you get my drift.) If not, why do you think a story is different?

Taking an unauthorized gander at a script or copying someones code is in no way comparable to rape, but in both cases blaming the victim is useless.

The fault lies with the ones who take the action that violates another's rights. Not with someone being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Ro

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I have no surviving
enemies. At all.

Galen

bakana · Aug 10, 2001

I think we should take note of the fact that the site where JMS posted those scripts had very Prominent warnings that they were only to be read while logged on to that Site.

In fact, the site was set up to make it as close to impossible to "cut and paste" as can be done via the Internet. There was no download capability.

The people who copied the scripts went to the extra effort to RETYPE them into a word processor.

It was theft. The Site Said copying them was Theft.

JMS tried to do a favor for those fans willing to go to that site and read the scripts online. Thanks to those who violated the instructions that went with the site, he is unlikely to ever do it again.

Note, that the people who Copied the scripts had to read them before they could copy them, so the only purpose they could have had for copying was to steal the scripts so they could boost their own tiny little egos by "getting away with something".

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Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?

Deviot · Aug 10, 2001

Please play nice guys ALWAYS.

About bad people visiting and trolling and causing general havok well it happens but I am happy to say that this site has a great communitee .

Anyway I moderate this Ranger discussion forum so if you see a thread that is not ment to be here for whatever reason or somone is doing somthing which shoudl not be done e-mail me ..I am always willing to help when I can and I can here..

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Deviot
Lincbot@yahoo.com.au

GKarsEye · Aug 10, 2001

First of all, thanks a lot Ro for engaging in this dialogue. I really like these types of legal/ethical issues.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>If I recall correctly, you're a software engineer, aren't you? Do you really think it's okay for someone to take code you've worked on and use it for their own purposes with no recompense to you as a creator? (I don't know if it's programming you actually do, but you get my drift.) If not, why do you think a story is different?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do not own my code, it is the property of the company I work for. However, if I did own it, I either would keep it hidden from everyone else (closed source) or ditribute it freely to anyone who wants it (open source), depending on the application. For example, Microsoft has a closed source policy for security and business reasons. As much as I dislike them, they have every right to hunt people down who rip their code, because no one outside of Microsoft or its contractors are allowed to see it.

Unix and all of its variations is open source, so that anyone can change the OS kernel on their machine and distribute improved versions of the OS. This is done for the sake of improving product. No Unix programmer and claim that their code was stolen.

Sorry to hit with all the computer tech, but I'm trying to make the point that either you let people see it, or you don't. Lennier
brought up the bloopers. This I can totally understand, since JMS didn't want anyone outside of the crew to see it. OK, fine (not that this stopped me from downloading it).

The way I see it, whether I get the scripts sent to me via e-mail or by reading it from the web-site, the result is the same: I, a fan not involved with or employed by WB/TNT/Babylonian, have read an unproduced Crusade script without paying for it.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

To the actors ? some thoughts about online forums

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