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To the actors ? some thoughts about online forums

Hypatia-

JMS published them on Bookface, which was a site where you paid-per-view, I believe, in a way where there was no way for you to download or copy onto your own machine.

That was ok.

It's when one fan sends a copy to another, that's what's wrong, and that's what people don't think is wrong.

And no, I'm not bringing anything else into this.

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Channe, Freelance Writer Extraordinaire and The Next JMS
--
B5 Synchroninity of the Day: I just found out that the new dorm I'm living in next year has been named Breen Hall.
 
I only got the Crusade scripts from someone because I couldn't access them with Webtv (it required Java, & Webtv doesn't have it. We also can't download Java). If I had been able to access them at Bookface, I would've done so. I have never shared what I had with *anyone*--I just wanted to be able to read the scripts, just like everyone else who could access Bookface.

Tammy

------------------

"We're in here! Can anyone hear us?"
"I hear you." [giggle, laugh]
"In here!"
"We are here." [giggle, laugh]
-- Londo and G'Kar in Babylon 5:"Convictions"
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by channe:
Hypatia-

JMS published them on Bookface, which was a site where you paid-per-view,
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

bookface.com was free. That's what was so generous about JMS putting them on that site temporarily. He would not have had them there forever, even if bookface.com had not gone out of business.

(BTW, on a side note, I was heartbroken when pets.com went out of business!)
frown.gif
They had the neatest cat toys.

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"I do not believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense,
reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."-- Galileo
 
It was never clarified but I suspect that Bookface.Com paid its authors every time someone read a script or book. (JMS probably made a few cents when I read the scripts.) The money was meant to be coming from advertising. Pity they did not employ an advertising salesman.

I have never made nor had copies of the scripts.

Accusing a person of committing a criminal offence is not asking for clarification. Saying that a pay desk is needed is not an endorsement of avoiding payment - almost the exact opposite.


------------------
Andrew Swallow
 
Thank you for clarification, everyone - I didn't know much about the nature of the BookFace affair and now understand it well enough to draw some theoretic conclusions for myself. But before that, please allow me to answer the following question:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Do you really think it's okay for someone to take code you've worked on and use it for their own purposes with no recompense to you as a creator?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sometimes.

Most programs I write at work go to a single company who can be trusted - so our company usually delivers them together with source code, allowing the client to modify them if necessary.

The purpose of this is to ensure that the client can continue developing/modifying one's software if our company should go out of business - which we of course don't intend to.
smile.gif


There are certain projects which contain new or especially precious code - these are distributed with the precious parts made application-specific and already compiled into machine code (difficult if not impossible to fully reverse-engineer).

And there are some programs which I write as a hobby - and distribute for free, together with source and the permissions to both use and modify.

So consequently I'd be very happy to see some of my programs copied and modified... while I'd be highly annoyed to see it done in case of some others. That is why I choose how to publish them. But I understand that as a programmer I have choices that writers don't have.

----- to the point ----

One should remember that a work of literature can't be protected as effectively as a computer program. Even the best forms of protection have *the* weakness - manual retyping. What can be read, can be retyped.

As sad as it is, digital media is never going to become the preferred media for copyrighted literature (unless people change to an extent I can't currently anticipate). But it may become a viable channel for *some* types of copyrighted texts.

You see, with digital media one can be almost sure of one thing - if a material generates interest but isn't available in legal ways, some people will inevitably copy it. Therefore digitally publishing a work of literature can only succeed if the following conditions are (and stay) fulfilled:

A) it is continuously available via legal means at a reasonable price
B) no attempt is made to limit the number of people accessing it
C) convenient ways of paying for it are available
D) copying is as difficult as possible - either manual retyping or OCR

The means to ensure that point D is fulfilled exist - one can build a dedicated program to decrypt and display the text. This would make scanning, screen captures or manual retyping as the easiest ways of reproduction. Points A to C are however not dependent on technology - only people.

Unfortunately, JMS's publication of his short stories fell victim to the first (and indirectly also the second) point. If they would be available by legal means, many people (including me) would be interested in reading them.

OK, enough of incoherent ramblings on my part...
smile.gif


------------------
Canned flarn is a sacrilege.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited August 10, 2001).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> JMS Speaks:

9a) A subset of 9 and a request ... I keep seeing posts from people who are freely exchanging textfiles containing the Crusade scripts that were posted on bookface.com.

To those folks, the rest of you can move on ...

I don't think you've stopped to realize that what you're passing around so freely is my property. It's not taking from WB, or TNT, it's taking from *me*. I own the scripts that I write, under the Writers Guild Separation of Rights provision. I allowed Bookface to put them up because they gave me assurances that they could not easily or well be pirated. (They clearly did not anticipate the ingenuity of some folks.)

You are infringing on my rights, my copyright, my ownership, and causing me to regret my decision to let folks see them, such that I may never do this again because it greatly reduces my ability to ever sell them or publish them in book form in future.
You have, in effect, stolen my property and are freely distributing same. That it's not available elsewhere is not the issue; we all want things we can't have, or which are not currently available.

I'm asking you politely, as the guy who *made* this show and *wrote* those scripts (and *owns* those scripts) for you to stop.
If it doesn't stop, I'm going to have to start taking action against those doing this. (I've been giving my attorneys quite a workout lately, inclusive of making sure that a certain individual who has been fabricating stuff about me for six years on the unmoderated group ... will do so no longer.)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, just for the record, the worst software pirate around is Micro$oft. They steal anything they can, without regret or remorse.

Heck, Windoze was originally stolen from Apple. The money to pay for the Port of the GUI & Mouse interface code to Intel chips was obtained from IBM under a fraudulent contract.




------------------
Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GKarsEye:
However, if I did own it, I either would keep it hidden from everyone else (closed source)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The only valid camparison in this case would be a "program" written in a scripting language that has no binary form you can hide it in. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>since JMS didn't want anyone outside of the crew to see [the bloopers].<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That is not correct - the bloopers have repetadly been shown at conventions. It just that from what I hear, a full public release would be a non-trivial matter from a legal stand point, and not worth the hassle for WB.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bakana:
Oh, just for the record, the worst software pirate around is Micro$oft. They steal anything they can, without regret or remorse.

Heck, Windoze was originally stolen from Apple.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And didn't Apple steal it from Xerox?

------------------
"I do not believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense,
reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."-- Galileo
 
Let the Record Show:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Andrew's original quote:
The main reason people obtained free copies of the scripts is that they were unable to pay for them.

If you want to be paid for acting/playing/writing make it easy for people to pay you.


My Original Response:
So, if you were to steal really really good books you couldn't afford, that would be okay?

Or if someone told you a book was no longer for sale, but you wanted to read it anyway, stealing would be an acceptable solution?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1. The "you" in my response was a rhetorical device, Andrew, not to you personally. There is always an audience beyond the participants in any BB discussion, and that's who "you" includes. (And don't all you readers accuse me of libel, either. :p )

2. Your post was in the middle of a vigorous debate on whether an creator (author in this instance) is silly to expect his or her authorial rights to be honored when the material was put by him/her on a website. Specifically within the context of a discussion about the difference between "real" and "intellectual" property. So drawing a comparison between a story on a website and a physical item like a book seemed and seems quite a legitimate one to make. I stand by it, and by the question I raised. The form doesn't matter, because you are not taking paper and ink, you're taking the story.

It's not always about the money, it is about authorial control of one's work product. Unlike software, a story that "hides it's code" defeats the entire purpose of telling a story. Other means, including the better angels of our natures, are required.

3. It was unclear to me that you were saying "payment" should be made. It sounded rather like you faulted the author/presenter for not putting a can out by the door for contributions. From your later posts I take it you think recompense is appropriate, it is the form that is lacking. If this is your premise we are in agreement. (This you should as personal.)

I note that experiments in ways to make payment for web content are continuing. Amazon has begun a system where you can use your Account with them to put a couple of bucks in a webmaster's pocket if you enjoy the site and want to support it. I work on an ezine that has signed up for it. It will be interesting to see how many people actually pony up a buck or two for (imo) a really fine ezine.

I'll let you (all) know if it's a success.
wink.gif



Ro

------------------
I have no surviving
enemies. At all.

Galen
 
I believe if someone wants to listen to a busker he should put money in the cap.

I also believe that it is the responsibility of a busker to bring a cap – he is the one getting the money.

Non-financial rights.

A carpenter makes and sells a chair. Does the carpenter have any moral right to say who can and can not sit in that chair? Is it even ethical to try?


------------------
Andrew Swallow
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AndrewSwallow:
A carpenter makes and sells a chair.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You misspelled rents out.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AndrewSwallow:

Non-financial rights.


A carpenter makes and sells a chair. Does the carpenter have any moral right to say who can and can not sit in that chair? Is it even ethical to try?


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Apples and oranges. Selling outright and licensing for use (as in the rights to a particular story or work) as two different things.

If a thing is sold outright, the property rights transfer along with it.

For the rights, I'll give you an example from the Ezine I mentioned above. I'm working on a novel. I submitted an excerpt from it to the fiction editor, who wants to publish it in a future issue, probably the September one. After I did the writer's happy dance
laugh.gif
I asked her what rights they wanted.

I've given them specific rights to the excerpt for North American Electronic rights. It does preclude me from submitting or posting it elsewhere on the web while they retain the rights.

It doesn't include print rights. Though if they do an print anthology they have dibs on including it in there not exclusive of printing elsewhere. For example, they aren't due any money from me or any eventual publisher of the larger work when it is sold. (See how optimistic I am...
crazy.gif
)

So, I get a say where they can put the "chair", though not who can use it. (This is an oversimplification, to be sure, but hopefully illustrative.)

And yes, I'm taking a risk by putting it out on the web. It's a calculated one and relatively small. In part because I am unknown, it's unlikely anyone will be motivated to email my several hundred words when all they have to do is come to the website to see it.
smile.gif


Also, in part because it is an excerpt from a larger work. Hopefully enough to intrigue but not enough to give completely away where I think I'm going with this. (Characters can take unexpected turns occasionally, so I'm waiting to see where they're going too...)

I'm getting no money from this, but I hope to get comments on the characters and the situation, and use that to further develop the rest of the story.

Ro, who hopes to one day fashion a story universe people find as compelling as I find the B5 one.

cool.gif


------------------
I have no surviving
enemies. At all.

Galen
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> Heck, Windoze was originally stolen from Apple.

And didn't Apple steal it from Xerox?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, that is one of the Funnier stories of the computer age. A team at Xerox did develop the GUI and Mouse. When they presented a demo to the Xerox Powers That Be, they made the mistake of referring to the Mouse AS a Mouse.

The Suits fastened on that name for the device and decided that Xerox wasn't going to have anything to do with something So Silly. No one would ever take such a product Seriously. They cancelled the development project.

Not too long after, Apple sent some people over to try to negotiate a "shared development" deal of some sort because they'd heard about the GUI & Mouse and thought it was a Great Idea.

Xerox management ordered the development team to GIVE these "fools" all the info they wanted since it was a "failed project".


Micro$oft later came to Apple and claimed that they wanted to develop a Word Processor or something for the Mac. They got a couple Pre-Production models to work with, all the programming specs, etc.

M$ took all this stuff home and started porting it to the Intel architecture.

At the same time, IBM had approached M$ about a new product They wanted M$ to build for them. IBM had also heard about the GUI and wanted to have oneo f their own. And this time, it was to be an IBM owned product called OS/2. M$ would just be a programming contractor instead of owning it like they did MS/DOS.

So, M$ took IBM's money, Apple's computers and OS and released Windoze just a few months before Apple's planned release date.

IBM sued over the "coincidence" in product specifications and the conflict of interest M$ had neglected to mention.

M$ delivered a piece of code it Said was OS/2 with so many bugs it took IBM 2 years to find just Half of them and release the first Beta version of OS/2. By the time they got a Good version of OS/2 on the market, Windoze was on so many desktops it looked like the Only choice.

We've been plagued with crashing computers ever since.




------------------
Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?
 
You are now claiming "rights" that were not explicitly granted by the public. The public therefore has the right to say NO.

The UK already has laws banning unfair terms and conditions. They were not aimed at Hollywood but they can be turned around. (The designer jeans manufactures have been trying to prevent the high street stores selling their overpriced workmen’s clothing.) The US Supreme Court is allowing copyright laws to be interpreted flexibly.



------------------
Andrew Swallow
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AndrewSwallow:
You are now claiming "rights" that were not explicitly granted by the public. The public therefore has the right to say NO.

The UK already has laws banning unfair terms and conditions. They were not aimed at Hollywood but they can be turned around. (The designer jeans manufactures have been trying to prevent the high street stores selling their overpriced workmen’s clothing.) The US Supreme Court is allowing copyright laws to be interpreted flexibly.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To what specifically are you referring, Andrew?

Ro



------------------
I have no surviving
enemies. At all.

Galen
 
The US Supreme court only getsw involved in Copyright law under two circumstances:

1.) Someone comes up with a GOOD argument claiming that some part of the law is Unconstitional. The Supremes would either say Yes or No and explain their reasoning.
If they say some part of the law is Unconstitutional, it has to be Rewritten in accordance with their decision.
If they say it's Constitutional, whatever the Lower courts have decided usually is allowed to stand.


2.) Two different Federal courts (It's a Federal law) issue conflicting opinions about some part of the law. Then, the Supremes step in to decide Which One is correct, or if Neither is correct.

Even then, the Supremes would simply tell the lower courts to "Get back to work and Get it Right this time" because the only cases the Supremes rule on directly are constituional issues.



------------------
Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?
 

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